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That's an interesting thing for someone to say who tries to say that Revelation 4:1 is a description of the rapture even tough it only mentions John alone there. That's quite a stretch to relate that verse to a pre-trib rapture. Do you not have any clear, straightforward scripture to support your doctrine? It doesn't look like it.Keras, those who attempt to refute the pre-Trib rapture always cite inapplicable verses.
We don't even know if it's talking about John being caught up bodily there. It's likely just speaking figuratively of him being given a vision of heaven and not talking about him literally going to heaven. Look at what Paul wrote here:The reason you can't refute the pre-Trib rapture is because Rev 4:1 is factually a future event. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation, because it was shown to him by one angel who was sent to John, while John was on Patmos.
Those passages refer to unsaved people. I'm not going to join you in condemning believers to hell just because they hold to the wrong end times doctrine.We who refute the rapture to heaven, can show how wrong the pre-trib believers are until doomsday, but they will never understand, because they can't. they are locked into their delusion, as verses like Isaiah 29:9-12, Jeremiah 4:22, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, confirm.
Are you as bad as J.B. who sees words that are not there?Those passages refer to unsaved people. I'm not going to join you in condemning believers to hell just because they hold to the wrong end times doctrine.
Why do I have to spell this out to you? Did you actually read the passages you referenced? Take this one, for example...Are you as bad as J.B. who sees words that are not there?
I never condemned anyone to hell.
Rapture believers are Jesus believers, so their Eternal life is assured. John 3:16
Amill isn't false, Premill is. Anyway, those who have false beliefs may or may not have that kind of attitude. You should not associate a passage like 2 Thessalonians 2 to them as it gives the impression that you're saying anyone who believes in pre-trib or any other false doctrine is damned. You can warn them about not being like those described in that passage, but you should not just associate them with that passage with no explanation behind it.But all who have false beliefs, the rapture, preterist, AMill, or just the careless attitude of 'I don't care about the Prophetic Word', may be shocked and lose their faith when disaster strikes.
I, and a number of others, have refuted that doctrine for many years on forums like this one, so I guess you somehow missed that.However, I thank you for your posts 100, 101, 102, above. I have battled the false rapture to heaven doctrine, for years with little if any support.
The concern about someone believing in that is that they can start to think that they won't experience any persecution or trouble of any kind because God will take them off of the earth first. But, Christians have experienced persecution and trouble for almost 2,000 years now. Why would that ever change? Some of them say it's pre-trib more in the sense of pre-wrath because we're not appointed to God's wrath, as it says in 1 Thess 5:9, but that verse relates directly to the wrath upon unbelievers on the day Jesus returns (1 Thess 5:2-3). But, they think the rapture occurs 7 years (or maybe 3.5 years) before He returns and that is clearly not taught anywhere in scripture. And, of course, it's not a rapture to heaven regardless of when it happens.The reality is that the best we can do for people who have been trapped into believing they will be raptured, is to show what God actually does plan for His faithful peoples. Ezekiel 34:11-16 tells it the best. Romans 9:24-26 confirms it.
The Bible versions that use "temptation" in Rev 3:10 are incorrect. The versions that use "hour of trial" are correct.What 7 year Trib? You can't convince me of what you believe when you reference something that isn't taught in scripture. You cannot use Revelation 3:10 to support pre-trib. You can never convince me of that no matter what you do.
Revelation 3:10 is not referring to God's wrath, as I've already shown. It's "the hour of temptation". Temptation is not God's wrath.
You need to learn to look at surrounding verses for context. None of what you're saying fits the theme of what Jesus says in Revelation 2 and 3.
Look at the verses following Revelation 3:10.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
If we were just going to be taken off of the earth before the hour of temptation/trial occurred, then what is the point of Jesus saying to "hold that fast which thou hast" and what is the point of Him talking about overcoming? Verses 11 and 12 do not support your understanding of verse 10 at all, but instead shows that believers need to stay strong in the faith in order to endure and overcome during the hour of temptation.
You just repeat the exact words you've already said. I've already addressed all of this, so if you have nothing new then there's nothing more I can say than what I've already said. Revelation 4:1 is absolutely NOT a reference to a pre-trib rapture. It relates to John only being given visions and not just of the distant future. The church is referenced multiple times after Revelation 4:1 as can be seen in passages like Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 14:12-13.
John only wrote about Rev 4:1, just like he did for all of Revelation. The proof is is Rev 1:1 (the sending of the angel to him while he was on Patmos), and Rev 22:8 (where John confirms that everything he heard and saw to write Revelation was shown to him by one angel).That's an interesting thing for someone to say who tries to say that Revelation 4:1 is a description of the rapture even tough it only mentions John alone there. That's quite a stretch to relate that verse to a pre-trib rapture. Do you not have any clear, straightforward scripture to support your doctrine? It doesn't look like it.
The Bible versions that say "temptation" in Rev 3:10 are incorrect. The versions that say "hour of trial" are correct.What 7 year Trib? You can't convince me of what you believe when you reference something that isn't taught in scripture. You cannot use Revelation 3:10 to support pre-trib. You can never convince me of that no matter what you do.
Revelation 3:10 is not referring to God's wrath, as I've already shown. It's "the hour of temptation". Temptation is not God's wrath.
You need to learn to look at surrounding verses for context. None of what you're saying fits the theme of what Jesus says in Revelation 2 and 3.
Look at the verses following Revelation 3:10.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
If we were just going to be taken off of the earth before the hour of temptation/trial occurred, then what is the point of Jesus saying to "hold that fast which thou hast" and what is the point of Him talking about overcoming? Verses 11 and 12 do not support your understanding of verse 10 at all, but instead shows that believers need to stay strong in the faith in order to endure and overcome during the hour of temptation.
You just repeat the exact words you've already said. I've already addressed all of this, so if you have nothing new then there's nothing more I can say than what I've already said. Revelation 4:1 is absolutely NOT a reference to a pre-trib rapture. It relates to John only being given visions and not just of the distant future. The church is referenced multiple times after Revelation 4:1 as can be seen in passages like Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 14:12-13.
So; the Church gets to heaven before any Judgment?We are in Heaven for the Judgment Seat of Christ.
So, when does the Judgment Seat of Christ occur, Mr. Keras? Show me the verse that states when it occurs.So; the Church gets to heaven before any Judgment?
That belief borders on insanity. It simply isn't Biblical and cannot happen.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes....... AFTER Jesus Returns, He will sit on His Throne and Judge the nations.So, when does the Judgment Seat of Christ occur, Mr. Keras? Show me the verse that states when it occurs.
Karas, judgment of the sort you are claiming for believers, is not part of our future. Judgment of the sort you are claiming carries with it the possibility of condemnation (being sent to the lake of fire). Every future judgment of the sort you are claiming carries with it the possibility of condemnation.So; the Church gets to heaven before any Judgment?
That belief borders on insanity. It simply isn't Biblical and cannot happen.
But it is: Matthew 25:46 Which does not take place until the Millennium is over, Revelation 20:11-15Karas, judgment of the sort you are claiming for believers, is not part of our future.
Absolute rubbish, none of those scriptures even hint a pre-trib rapture. You are deceived and deluded.Apostle Paul wrote the first verse about the pre-Trib rapture in 1 Th 1:10. That is proven to mean a pre-Trib rapture along with Ezekiel 14:21, Rev 6:4,
Keras, you challenged me in the past to show you a verse that proves a pre-Trib rapture of the Church to Heaven. That is Rev 4:1. It is proven that Rev 4:1 is entirely a future event because apostle John never left the island of Patmos while receiving his vision of Revelation. It is provable that one angel showed John everything he heard and saw in his vision of Revelation. That is proven true in:Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes....... AFTER Jesus Returns, He will sit on His Throne and Judge the nations.
Why do you even ask such obvious questions? Your foolish and not in the bible: rapture to heaven', is impossible and will never happen.
1 Th 1:10 is the first verse apostle Paul wrote about the pre-Trib rapture. In the following paragraphs, that verse is proven to be about the pre-Trib rapture.But it is: Matthew 25:46 Which does not take place until the Millennium is over, Revelation 20:11-15
Absolute rubbish, none of those scriptures even hint a pre-trib rapture. You are deceived and deluded.
Anyone who promotes theories and fables which do not have Bible support; are fools.You say that I am foolish. I forgive you.
This verse says nothing about a rapture to heaven, as you falsely believe. Revelation 12:14 tells us how the Lord will deliver His people from the wrath to come. Kept safe in a distant location on earth. Why can't you believe that plainly stated scripture?1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
You are missing the most important details of 1 Th 1:10 ESV: ... Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.Anyone who promotes theories and fables which do not have Bible support; are fools.
This verse says nothing about a rapture to heaven, as you falsely believe. Revelation 12:14 tells us how the Lord will deliver His people from the wrath to come. Kept safe in a distant location on earth. Why can't you believe that plainly stated scripture?
Anyone who promotes theories and fables which do not have Bible support; are fools.
This verse says nothing about a rapture to heaven, as you falsely believe. Revelation 12:14 tells us how the Lord will deliver His people from the wrath to come. Kept safe in a distant location on earth. Why can't you believe that plainly stated scripture?
1 Th 1:10's "wrath to come" refers to the earliest wrath in the Trib. That is found in the 2nd seal. "Delivers us" is the rapture. We are snatched away from Earth. Rev 4:1 gets us to Heaven.Anyone who promotes theories and fables which do not have Bible support; are fools.
This verse says nothing about a rapture to heaven, as you falsely believe. Revelation 12:14 tells us how the Lord will deliver His people from the wrath to come. Kept safe in a distant location on earth. Why can't you believe that plainly stated scripture?
A statement that is totally and completely refuted by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where it is plainly stated that Gods people are present at the beginning of the Tribulation.We believers do not enter the Trib
You have not refuted the truth: 1 Th 1:10's "wrath to come" refers to the earliest wrath in the Trib. That is found in the 2nd seal. Therefore, that wrath is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. "Delivers us" is the rapture. We are snatched away from Earth. Rev 4:1 gets us to Heaven.A statement that is totally and completely refuted by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where it is plainly stated that Gods people are present at the beginning of the Tribulation.
Why must you keep on making a bigger fool of yourself? By now, your wrong interpretations of scripture and all the corrections given by me and others here, have likely made many pre-trib believers, reconsider their beliefs.
That you remain stuck fast in your delusions, is your disgrace.
The truth in 1 Thess 1:10; is:You have not refuted the truth: 1 Th 1:10's "wrath to come"
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