Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

keras said:

I totally disagree. Thinking that, is a contradiction of much scripture, mainly; shifting the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath by fire, the Sixth Seal; to the end of the Millennium.

As 2 Peter 3:1-7 says; the Lord judged the earth by water, this time He will do it by fire, as over 100 prophesies vividly describe.
The earth will be very badly affected by this forthcoming strike by a fiery mass, but will recover and all the things prophesied before Jesus Returns, will come to pass.

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you correctly characterize my claim

Rev 20:9, "and fire came down from Heaven" well after the Millennium = Rev 20:1-6

Erik Nelson said:

you correctly characterize my claim

Rev 20:9, "and fire came down from Heaven" well after the Millennium = Rev 20:1-6

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I understand your desire to avoid the forthcoming Lord's Day of wrath by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. It's not going to be very nice.

But you don't seem to have the assurance that the Lord will protect His own thru it all.
We are told, quite plainly, that: All who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21. This advice does not apply to the end of the Millennium.

keras said:

I understand your desire to avoid the forthcoming Lord's Day of wrath by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. It's not going to be very nice.

But you don't seem to have the assurance that the Lord will protect His own thru it all.
We are told, quite plainly, that: All who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21. This advice does not apply to the end of the Millennium.

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Yes, that's an important phrase, "all who call upon the Name of the LORD will be saved"

Joel 2:32 = Acts 2:21 = Pentecost circa 30 AD, "God's spirit poured out... in these last days"
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Acts 15:17 = Jerusalem Council circa 50 AD, "God rebuilds Davidic Kingdom... for all who call on God"
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Romans 10:13 = circa 56 AD

In the Judgement of guilt unto Wrath of 70 AD, Christians successfully escaped to Pella and rode out the maelstrom in safety

Rodney Stark shows that Christians, who called upon God, out-survived pagans under the empire from the 1st-4th centuries AD, when, now the majority, they emerged victorious under Constantine unto Nicaea.

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Byzantine empire = 1000-year Christian Millennium

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In these "last moments of Earth" (Rev 20:7-9), Rev 20:9 implies that some remnant of faithful Christians -- who will presumably continue to call upon the Name of the LORD the entire time -- will survive Gog & Magog all the way through unto "fire from heaven" consumes them

A blast of plasma fire from heaven would, logically, induce storms, earthquakes and more upon planet earth, ultimately turning earth into a smoldering lake of fiery lava -- dramatic, on a planetary scale, but hardly visible from even a few light-years away:


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Erik Nelson said:

A blast of plasma fire from heaven would, logically, induce storms, earthquakes and more upon planet earth, ultimately turning earth into a smoldering lake of fiery lava -- dramatic, on a planetary scale, but hardly visible from even a few light-years away:

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Your preterist notions and fancy pictures have nothing to do with Bible prophecy and what it tells us will happen.
Why are you here, if all you post is fiction?

keras said:

Your preterist notions and fancy pictures have nothing to do with Bible prophecy and what it tells us will happen.
Why are you here, if all you post is fiction?

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How do you read Revelation 20:9 ?

keras said:

Your preterist notions and fancy pictures have nothing to do with Bible prophecy and what it tells us will happen.
Why are you here, if all you post is fiction?

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There are no greater fictions than futurism's fantasies.

Why are they here?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Anyone remember this event where the Disciples ask Jesus if they could make fire descend from heaven?

Luke 9:54
Seeing yet His disciples, James and John, say "Lord! Thou are willing we may be saying 'fire to descend from the heaven and to consume<355> them' even as EliYah did"? [1 King 18:37]
55 But he turned and rebuked them. 56 and they went to another village.

The 2 witnesses are shown with fire going forth and consuming:

Revelation 11:5
and if any them *willing to injure, fire is going forth out of their mouth and devouring the enemies of them.

Revelation 20:9
And they ascended on the breadth of the Land and they surround the camp of the holy-ones and the city, the having been loved.
And descended fire from the God out of the Heaven and it devoured<2719> them.

1 King 18:
34 Then he said, “A second time! ” and they did it a second time. And then he said, “A third time! ” and they did it a third time. 35 So the water ran all around the altar; he even filled the trench with water.
38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

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Difference of degree not kind. Is it safe to assume that the fire from heaven? On final judgment. In revelation 21:9 is. In some sense larger and more powerful. Then the fire from Heaven during the days of Elijah?

Same same but much, much more of the same?

jgr said:

There are no greater fictions than futurism's fantasies.

Why are they here?

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THE RABBI WHO FOUND MESSIAH - THE STORY OF YITZHAK KADURI
by Carl Gallups

Rabbi Kaduri was a maximally revered Orthodox Rabbi for nearly 110 years. He repeatedly reported prophesies about the End Times and Gog-Magog.

He reported that he received a vision from God of the Messiah who revealed his identity on 4 November 2003. He wrote an encrypted note identifying the Messiah. The note was unveiled in 2007, one year after the Rabbi's passing in January 2006.

The note appears to identify the name of the Messiah as Yehoshua = Jesus.

Immediately, the Rabbi, praised ceaselessly for a century, became instantly condemned / doubted / declared senile.

people know God's will better than the Religious authorities to whom they themselves attributed miracles for a hundred years?

For whatever it is worth, Rabbi Kaduri links the immediate present to the time of Gog-Magog and the revelation of the Messiah, who is already in modern Israel, according to Kaduri.

Kaduri linked the revelation of the Messiah to the passing of the currently comatose Ariel Sharon (!!!), who will supposedly be the last PM of Israel before the Messianic reign.

Kaduri predicted the initial revelation of the Messiah, apparently privately to Israel (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ?), in Av 5772 = 2012.

Kaduri predicted numerous calamities and disasters (eg Gog and Magog) preceding and paving the way for the Messiah to rebuild the physical temple a rule from physical Jerusalem, seemingly similar to what @keras asserts.

While Revelation 20:7-9 = Gog and Magog EXPLICITLY, Rev 19 references birds feasting on carrion which RESEMBLES Ez 38 and Gog and Magog.

Rev 19 suggests a second coming like event, even though the actual Throne arrives in Revelation 20:10+.

The words @keras applies today / soon = Rev 19...
I would apply to today / soon = Rev 20:9+

@keras argues in support of views which I see echoed in the predictions of Rabbi Kaduri, eg calamities and disasters paving the way for the Messiah reigning from Jerusalem with a rebuilt temple to elevate Israel to undisputed preeminence.

THE RABBI WHO FOUND MESSIAH - THE STORY OF YITZHAK KADURI
by Carl Gallups

Jews now expect their Messiah (with the fiery destruction of Rome, chapter 17), Muslims now expect the Mahdi (and Christ's 2C) amidst massive conflict, and many Christians now except the Messiah's second coming also. The stars are aligning, so to speak, in the sense of most of the Abrahamic world is evidently expecting a "Messianic coming" event.

Yet, could you not apply all of the exact same events, to the era of Gog and Magog ending in Final Judgement?


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if so, nobody is flat out wrong, everyone has basically the right idea and sense of things... The only nuance is that we might be on the verge of Rev 20:9-10, instead of Rev 20:1 (= Constantine and the Council of NICEA = "Council of VICTORY")

NB: Some followers of Kaduri, because of his declaration, became (Jewish Messianic) Christians. According to one pupil, Rabbi Kaduri privately preached Jesus as Messiah, yet only quietly for fear of retributions.

LittleLambofJesus said:

What is the signficance of the 2 Greek words for Jerusalem in NT, and 2 different Hebrew words in the OT?
Only Ezra and Daniel use Yruwshalem<3390>

[I actually just ran across that when I was harmonizing Luke's Gospel to Revelation and 70ad Jerusalem]
LUKE CHAPTERS 19, 21, 23 AND REVELATION "DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM 70AD"
Just as in the NT, there are also 2 different Hebrew words for Jerusalem in the OT
[Now that we got the 2 Jerusalems taken care, time to continue on with Luke and Revelation]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2 Jerusalems in the OT

3389 Yruwshalaim yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im rarely Yruwshalayim {yer-oo- shaw-lah'-yim};
a dual (in allusion to its two main hills (the true pointing, at least of the former reading, seems to be that of 3390));
occurs 821 times in 772 verses in the NKJV.

1st time used:

Joshua 10:1
Now it came to pass when Adoni-Zedek king of Yruwshalaim<3389> heard how Joshua had taken Ai and had utterly destroyed it—as he had done to Jericho and its king, so he had done to Ai and its king—and how the inhabitants of Gibeon had made peace with Israel and were among them,

Last time used

Malachi 3:4
Then shall the offering of Judah and Yruwshalaim<3389> be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

3390 Yruwshalem yer-oo-shaw-lame' (Chald)
Jerusalem = "teaching of peace" the chief city of Palestine and capital of the united kingdom and the nation of Judah after the split
which occurs 26 times in 25 verses

Used only in Ezra [4 chapters, 22 verses] and Daniel [3 chapters 3 verses]

Ezra 4:8
Rehum[fn] the commander and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Yruwshalem<3390> to King Artaxerxes in this fashion:

Daniel 6:10
Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went home. And in his upper room, with his windows open toward Yruwshalem<3390>, he knelt down on his knees three times that day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as was his custom since early days.

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inexpertly, the second Hebrew word is younger and simpler, having one fewer syllables, all of which may suggest it is a newer, post exilic, derived term

LittleLambofJesus said:

Thanks.
I couldn't find much info on it..........

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offer that the continual fasting of Rabbi Tzadok for 40 years from 30-70ad, as well as the continual prayers of saint James the just in the temple until his knees were as a camels...

may have paused the Daniel countdown clock?

The debates on subjects like this are endless, because no one can prove that their view is the correct one. And even when they do prove it, many others will simply refuse to believe. But some of the statements here range from highly questionable to provably false.

First, whenever anyone begins to cite exact dates for when ancient events took place, that person is only proving his or her ignorance. For the only ancient dates that can be determined with any real certainty are the very few that can be specifically tied to eclipses, whose exact dates can be calculated. And, in actual fact, there are very few ancient events for which historical records specifically refer to eclipses. The problem, which is well known to all that have, like myself, spent any significant amount of time actually studying ancient documents, is that they simply do not agree with each other. an event that is stated as having taken place at one time in one ancient document is often stated to have taken place at a different time in another ancient document. We do indeed know approximately when many ancient events took place. but tying most of them to a specific year is well nigh impossible. So any calculations based on when specific ancient events took place is speculative at best.

But other statements made in this thread are provably uncorrect.

jgr said:

I also recommend that you consult the record of the historical true Church, which for over 1,800 years was all but unanimous in its recognition of the historical fulfillment of the 70th week.

70th week postponement, aka decapitation, is a modernist fallacy unknown before the 19th century.

For your edification, here is the testimony of one of the early defenders of the faith.

Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215 AD)

From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by: desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation." That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father.

In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.

The Stromata, or Miscellanies
Book I Chapter XXI

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Actually, the majority of the early church writers who addressed this question put the fulfillment of the seventieth week far into their own futures.

The oldest Christian document that addresses this question is "Against Heresies," by Irenaeus, which is thought to have been written between 186 and 188 A.D., as opposed to the 198-203 A>D. supposed date for the Stromata. And soon after the Stromate was composed, Hippolytus wrote the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture which has survived to the present day, which was a commentary on Daniel which is believed to have been written between 203 and 211 A.D. Like Irenaeus, Hippolytus very clearly put the fulfillment of the seventieth week far into his own future.

But in addition to being provably incorrect, this argument is inappropriate. For who taught any particular interpretation of scripture, or when it was first taught, or how many teachers taught it, are all irrelevant points. the only thing that counts is what the Bible actually says. Everything contrary to that is error, regardless of how long it has been taught, or how many people taught it.

Biblewriter said:

But in addition to being provably incorrect, this argument is inappropriate. For who taught any particular interpretation of scripture, or when it was first taught, or how many teachers taught it, are all irrelevant points. the only thing that counts is what the Bible actually says. Everything contrary to that is error, regardless of how long it has been taught, or how many people taught it.

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Which interpretation matches up with the promise of the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34?

Should we believe the angel Gabriel arrived to give Daniel the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant, and then the angel forgot to even mention the New Covenant?

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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The evidence of a gap between the end of the 69th 'week' = 7 years period, which was the death of Jesus, until now; is the fact that nearly 2000 years have passed and what is prophesied to happen in the last 'week', has simply not yet occurred.

Jesus DID prophesy this 2000 year gap; in Luke 13:32....two 'days' then on the third 'day', I shall attain My reward. His Millennium reign. [a day to God and Jesus in heaven is the same as 1000 years on earth] Proved by Hosea 6:2

LittleLambofJesus said:

It looks like the 70 weeks of Daniel is a popular topic in Christianity today, so I thought I would create one and include a poll. I also am interested in discussing this.

Translations can vary so I will use this one:

YLT)
Daniel 9:
24 ‘Sevens, seventy are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.
25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.
27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many — one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.’


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I am not sure if I have participated on this thread before or not but now looking at the last few posts the tread seems to be off topic, so I'll try and bring it back.

Preterism and Futurism were both gimmicks created by Jesuit Priests during the council of Trent (which have since evolved) to elude the accusations of the Papacy being the anti-Christ; both preterism and Futurism place the RCC out side the time frame of the Beasts etc.

Futurism requires a gap after the 69th week not supported by scripture.

However there is a gap, not specifically mentioned, between the comings of Christ; from when He is cut off until He returns.