Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

[jgr]

Yet everything in verse 27 is fulfilled during the 70th week. If you are correct, that means there is at least a 40 year gap in the 70th week itself. If Daniel 27b is referring to Jesus and His death on the cross, and if 27c is referring to the events of 70 AD, no way around it then, that puts a gap of at least 40 years between 27b and 27c. And like I have pointed out numerous times now, the context of verse 27 is the 70th week. None of it involves anything outside of the 70th week. No wonder some of you are interpreting verse 27 incorrectly then.

Explained here.

 

[Erik Nelson]

the prince of verse 27 abominates the temple and is afterwards destroyed too

= Christ???

 

[DavidPT]

Explained here.

I looked at your post again, the one you provide a link for here. You argue for no gap, yet there has to be a gap in the 70 weeks in order for you to be correct.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The context for this verse are the first 69 weeks. Nothing in this verse involves anything outside of this 69 weeks. I don't know anyone that might argue otherwise.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The same logic has to apply to this verse as well. The context for this verse is the 70th week. Nothing in this verse involves anything outside of the 70th week. Daniel 9:25 and Daniel 9:27 combined are referring to the entire 70 weeks.



and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---if this is meaning the crucifixion----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---and if this is referring to 70 AD, that places a gap of around 40 years. Yet I thought some of you were arguing for no gap whatsoever? And as to a gap, whether it be 40 years or 2000 years, it's still a gap no matter how you look at it.

If one makes 27b the crucifixion, that same one can't make 27c fit the remaining 3.5 years without inserting a gap.

 

[BABerean2]

Yet everything in verse 27 is fulfilled during the 70th week. If you are correct, that means there is at least a 40 year gap in the 70th week itself. If Daniel 27b is referring to Jesus and His death on the cross, and if 27c is referring to the events of 70 AD, no way around it then, that puts a gap of at least 40 years between 27b and 27c. And like I have pointed out numerous times now, the context of verse 27 is the 70th week. None of it involves anything outside of the 70th week. No wonder some of you are interpreting verse 27 incorrectly then.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

During which week was the above fulfilled by Christ during the first century?

What covenant do we find quoted in Hebrews 10:16-18, which was fulfilled by Christ?

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant, and then he failed to even mention the New Covenant?

.

 

[jgr]

I looked at your post again, the one you provide a link for here. You argue for no gap, yet there has to be a gap in the 70 weeks in order for you to be correct.

Here's what my post says:

"The interval of a generation between the end of the 70th week, and 70 AD, represented the final opportunity which God in His mercy granted His unbelieving people to turn to Him. Lamentably, few did."

I prefer not to use the term "gap" because it is associated with futurism's gap between the end of the 69th week, and beginning of the 70th week; which does not exist.

There is, however, the interval of a generation (about 40 years) between the end of the 70th week, and 70 AD. My post explains why the events of both periods are included in the associated verses.

 

[DavidPT]

Here's what my post says:

"The interval of a generation between the end of the 70th week, and 70 AD, represented the final opportunity which God in His mercy granted His unbelieving people to turn to Him. Lamentably, few did."

I prefer not to use the term "gap" because it is associated with futurism's gap between the end of the 69th week, and beginning of the 70th week; which does not exist.

There is, however, the interval of a generation (about 40 years) between the end of the 70th week, and 70 AD. My post explains why the events of both periods are included in the associated verses.

I understood your post. What you are not grasping though, Daniel 9:27c is fulfilled during the 70th week also. Your interpretation doesn't even have it being fulfilled during the 70th week, thus my point appears moot to you. But that is beside the point. The context for verse 27 is the 70th week. Everything in that verse is fulfilled during the 70th week then. And based on that, the logic would be this if 27b is meaning the crucifixion. The logical conclusion would be that there would have to be a gap in the 70th week itself. The way you try and get around that, you claim 27c is connected to the 70th week without it actually being fulfilled during the 70th week.

 

[DavidPT]

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

During which week was the above fulfilled by Christ during the first century?

What covenant do we find quoted in Hebrews 10:16-18, which was fulfilled by Christ?

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant, and then he failed to even mention the New Covenant?

.

I think I have already indicated that Jesus fulfilled some of Daniel 9:24 already, just not all of it. And since there are two comings involved, I don't see the problem.

 

[DavidPT]

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

During which week was the above fulfilled by Christ during the first century?

What covenant do we find quoted in Hebrews 10:16-18, which was fulfilled by Christ?

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant, and then he failed to even mention the New Covenant?

.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression---Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. His people meant here, many of them were destroyed with it. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.


and to bring in everlasting righteousness---Peter was still looking for a place wherein dwelleth righteousness, meaning the NHNE. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.



and to seal up the vision and prophecy----Obviously this is not already the case.

and to anoint the most Holy---whatever this is referring to it appears to be the last thing to be fulfilled. Obviously then, this is yet to be fulfilled.


That leaves the following two.


and to make an end of sins---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross


and to make reconciliation for iniquity---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross

 

[jgr]

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression---Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. His people meant here, many of them were destroyed with it. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.


and to bring in everlasting righteousness---Peter was still looking for a place wherein dwelleth righteousness, meaning the NHNE. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.



and to seal up the vision and prophecy----Obviously this is not already the case.

and to anoint the most Holy---whatever this is referring to it appears to be the last thing to be fulfilled. Obviously then, this is yet to be fulfilled.


That leaves the following two.


and to make an end of sins---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross


and to make reconciliation for iniquity---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross

That would mean that there are two 70th weeks, one in the past with some fulfillments, and one in the future still awaiting some fulfillments.

How can there be two instances of the same week?

 

[DavidPT]

That would mean that there are two 70th weeks, one in the past with some fulfillments, and one in the future still awaiting some fulfillments.

How can there be two instances of the same week?

If there is a gap in the 70 weeks, and that in this gap Jesus' crucifixion occurred, thus the 70th week is used to finish the transgression against His people and the holy city, I don't see how that indicates 2 sets of the 70th week. His crucifixion doesn't even occur during the 70th week per my view. It is your view that has it occurring during the 70th week. If 474 BC, give or take a year, is a legit date for the beginning of the reigning of Artaxerxes, 20 years later would be 454 BC, give or take a year. 483 years later would lead to the time of Zechariah 9:9, where a few days post that, the crucifixion occurred. If the 69 weeks end with the fulfilling of Zechariah 9:9, that technically places His death after the 69 weeks. But not in the midst of the 70th week though, but within this gap between the 69 and 70th week.

Unless one can undeniably prove that any arguments for the beginning of the reigning of Artaxerxes occurring 10 years earlier than assumed by many, that this is bogus, thus not valid, the argument is then at least valid.

 

[BABerean2]

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression---Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. His people meant here, many of them were destroyed with it. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.


and to bring in everlasting righteousness---Peter was still looking for a place wherein dwelleth righteousness, meaning the NHNE. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.



and to seal up the vision and prophecy----Obviously this is not already the case.

and to anoint the most Holy---whatever this is referring to it appears to be the last thing to be fulfilled. Obviously then, this is yet to be fulfilled.


That leaves the following two.


and to make an end of sins---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross


and to make reconciliation for iniquity---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross

Why would you think the two are fulfilled and the other parts are not?

In which city were the two parts fulfilled?

Before the city was destroyed in 70 AD, about 3,000 of Daniel's people came to faith in Christ on the Day of Pentecost. Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" on that day.
Were those people's transgressions finished, based on Hebrews 10:16-18?

Are you saying Jesus was not "anointed" during His ministry?

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

The sealing up of a bag of coffee is the last step in its preparation.
To "seal up" a prophecy can also mean its fulfillment.

.

 

[Erik Nelson]

...and to anoint the most Holy---whatever this is referring to it appears to be the last thing to be fulfilled. Obviously then, this is yet to be fulfilled.


That leaves the following two.


and to make an end of sins---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross


and to make reconciliation for iniquity---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross

Mary anointed Jesus as the Messiah Christ with kingly priestly perfume 2000 years ago

 

[mkgal1]

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression---Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. His people meant here, many of them were destroyed with it. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.


and to bring in everlasting righteousness---Peter was still looking for a place wherein dwelleth righteousness, meaning the NHNE. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.



and to seal up the vision and prophecy----Obviously this is not already the case.

and to anoint the most Holy---whatever this is referring to it appears to be the last thing to be fulfilled. Obviously then, this is yet to be fulfilled.


That leaves the following two.


and to make an end of sins---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross


and to make reconciliation for iniquity---Jesus fulfilled this at the cross

Daniel 9 is not written in chronological order. Hebrew writing is different than modern Western writing.

Quoting Jeff Benner, from Ancient Hebrew dot org ------->As Hebrew poetry is written much differently than our own Western style of poetry, many do not recognize the poetry which can cause problems when translating or interpreting passages written in poetry.

It must be remembered that modern western thinkers view events in step logic. This is the idea that each event comes after the previous forming a series of events in a linear timeline. But, the Hebrews did not think in step logic but in block logic. This is the grouping together of similar ideas together and not in chronological order. ~ http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/language_poetry.html


Step Logic vs Block Logic

While the Modern Western person thinks and arranges events chronologically (Step Logic), the Ancient Hebrews thought and arranged events according to action and purpose (Block Logic). Let me demonstrate with the following paragraph from a western step logic perspective.

"I got up and ate breakfast and read the newspaper. I then drove to work. While at work I read yesterday's reports. At noon I walked across the street for lunch. While there I read a magazine. Back at work I read my emails. After work I drove home and had dinner."

Now let me rearrange this paragraph in block form, the way the Hebrews would have conveyed this same story.

"I drove to work and walked across the street and I drove home. I ate breakfast and I ate lunch and I ate dinner. I read the newspaper and I read the reports and I read a magazine and I read my emails."

To a person who is steeped in Western step logic, this paragraph would seem illogical as there is no way to make any chronological sense out of this narrative. However, this narrative would make much more sense to a person who is steeped in block logic as they can easily see my actions being grouped together. It is very important when reading the Bible to ignore the philosophy that has been ingrained in you and instead learn a completely new form of philosophy and logic. ~ http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/language_philosophy.html#logic
​

 

[mkgal1]

This was also fulfilled in the seventieth week, when Stephen was killed for delivering the gospel to the Jewish religious leaders (that marked the end of the seventieth week):

Matthew 23:34-35 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)​

34 Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

DavidPT said: ↑
...and to anoint the most Holy---whatever this is referring to it appears to be the last thing to be fulfilled. Obviously then, this is yet to be fulfilled.

Mary anointed Jesus as the Messiah Christ with kingly priestly perfume 2000 years ago

What a beautiful story that is....

SoS 1:
The Bride
12 While the king was at his table,
my perfume spread its fragrance.
13 My beloved is to me a sachet of myrrh
resting between my breasts.
14 My beloved is to me a cluster of henna blossoms
in the vineyards of En-gedi.

The Groom
15 How beautiful you are, my darling!
Oh, how very beautiful!
Your eyes are like doves.

[It is interesting to note that Lazarus is only mentioned in 3 chapters of the NT, Luke 16 and John chapts 11 and 12]
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=lazarus&t=NKJV&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1

John 12:
1 Six days before the Passover, Jesus therefore came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 So they gave a dinner for him there. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those reclining with him at table.
3 Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair.
The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, 5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denari and given to the poor?”

Matthew 26:
6 And of Jesus having been in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper,a
7 a woman came to Him, having an alabaster flask of very costly fragrant oil, and poured it on His head as He is reclining.

8 And the disciples having seen, became indignant, saying, “For what purpose is this waste? 9 For this could have been sold for much, and have been given to the poor.”
10 And Jesus having known, said to them, “Why do you cause trouble to the woman? For she did a beautiful work to Me.

Luke 7:
36 And one of the Pharisees was asking Him that He should eat with him, and having entered into the house of the Pharisee, He reclined.
37 And behold! a woman in the city who was a sinner.
And she having known that He had reclined in the Pharisee’s house, having taken an alabaster flask of fragrant oil,
38 and having stood behind Him at His feet weeping, she began to wet His feet with the tears, and she was wiping them with the hairs of her head, and was kissing His feet, and was anointing them with the fragrant oil.

39 And the Pharisee, the one having invited Him, having seen, spoke within himself, saying, “If this were a prophet, He would have known who and what the woman is who touches Him;
for she is a sinner.”

 

[mkgal1]

@DavidPT ....you may be correct about what was anointed wasn't necessarily Jesus - it *could* have been the "new temple".....the heavenly sanctuary (although I don't see it that way).

You can see the literary block form in this commentary:


9:24 A portion of the 2300 year time period has been set aside for the Jews and Jerusalem. This verse groups the first three items, and links them with the second trio:

1. “to finish the transgression”
2. “to make an end of [seal] sins”
3. “to make reconciliation for iniquity”

1. “to bring in everlasting righteousness”
2. “to seal up the vision and prophecy”
3. “to anoint the most holy”

In the first trio God deals with all sins by His sacrificial death and glorious resurrection within this seventy-week period. The second group reveals that Christ’s death and resurrection accomplishes everlasting righteousness, confirms the vision’s authenticity, and anoints the heavenly sanctuary for use. ~ https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/14-daniels-prophecy-of-the-seventy-weeks

 

[Christian Gedge]

The link you have provided mkgal is top notch! Well worth reading.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/14-daniels-prophecy-of-the-seventy-weeks

 

[BABerean2]

The link you have provided mkgal is top notch! Well worth reading.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/14-daniels-prophecy-of-the-seventy-weeks

Amen.

We need to be making hard-copy printouts and electronic file copies of sources such as this, because some of them are disappearing from the web.
This one is precious and needs to be guarded with multiple copies.

.

 

[mkgal1]

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression---Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. His people meant here, many of them were destroyed with it. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.


and to bring in everlasting righteousness---Peter was still looking for a place wherein dwelleth righteousness, meaning the NHNE. Obviously then, this part is yet to be fulfilled.

So the two things you don't recognize as being fulfilled are "finishing the transgression" and "bringing in everlasting righteousness".....right?

I don't understand what you're saying about "finishing the transgression". Can you elaborate on why you don't recognize that as fulfilled?

As far as you believing Peter was looking for a place ( New Heaven/New Earth) where righteousness dwell.....that's all tied to the "Day of the LORD" that was impending. I found this commentary by John Owen to be helpful:

------->As we saw, Puritan theologian John Owen argued that the teaching of 2 Peter 3 about the coming "Day of the Lord" was not about the end of the physical universe, but of the Old Covenant and the nation of Israel. He points out that the term "heavens and earth" are often used in the Old Testament as a symbolic expression for God's covenantal creation, Israel (see Isa. 51:15-20; Jer. 4:23-31). Owen writes: "the heavens and earth that God himself planted - the sun, moon, and stars of the judaical polity and church - the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinacy against the Lord Christ shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed." [1]

Owen offers two further reasons ("of many that might be insisted on from the text," he says) for adopting the A.D. 70 interpretation of 2 Peter 3. First, he observes, "whatever is here mentioned was to have its particular influence on the men of that generation." [2] That is a crucial point, which must be clearly recognized in any honest assessment of the apostle's meaning. St. Peter is especially concerned that his first-century readers remember the apostolic warnings about "the last days" (vv. 2-3; cf. I Tim.4:1-6; 2 Tim. 3:1-9). During these times, the Jewish scoffers of his day, clearly familiar with the Biblical prophecies of judgment, were refusing to heed those warnings (vv. 3-5). He exhorts his readers to live holy lives in the light of this imminent judgment (vv. 11, 14); and it is these early Christians who are repeatedly mentioned as actively "looking for and hastening" the judgment (vv. 12, 13, 14). It is precisely the nearness of the approaching conflagration that St. Peter cites as a motive to diligence in godly living!

Continuing his analysis, John Owen cites verse 13: "But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." Owen asks: "What is that promise? Where may we find it?" Good question. Do you know the answer? Where in the Old Testament does God promise a New Heaven and Earth? Incidentally, this raises a wider, fascinating issue: When the New Testament quotes or cites an Old Testament text, it's often a good idea to hunt down the original context, see what it meant in its original context, and then see the "spin" the New Testament writer places on it. (For example, Isaiah's prophecy of a gigantic highway-construction project [Isa. 40:3-5] is not interpreted literally in the New Testament, but metaphorically, of the preaching ministry of John the Baptist [Luke 3:4-6]. And Isaiah's prophecy of a "golden age" when the wolf dwells peaceably with the lamb [Isa. 11:1-10] is condensed and cited by St. Paul as a present fulfillment, in the New Covenant age [Rom. 15:12]!) But John Owen, this Puritan scholar, knows his Bible better than most of the rest of us, and he tells us exactly where the Old Testament foretells a "new heaven and earth":

What is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isaiah 65:17. Now, when shall this be that God will create these "new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness"? Saith Peter, It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell, But now it is evident, from this place of Isaiah, with chapter 66:21-22, that this is a prophecy of gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of gospel ordinances, to endure forever. The same thing is so expressed in Hebrews 12:26-28. [5]
~ [5] "Providential Changes, an Argument for Universal Holiness," 134-35


That's similar to how it was worded in the other link from Christian Courier:



---->...in addition to his redemptive work in connection with sin, Daniel showed that the Messiah would usher in an era of “everlasting righteousness.” This obviously is a reference to the Gospel dispensation. In the pages of the New Testament, Paul forcefully argued that Heaven’s plan for accounting man as “righteous” was made known “at this present season” (Roman 3:21-26) through the Gospel (Romans 1:16-17). ~ https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/14-daniels-prophecy-of-the-seventy-weeks

 

[mkgal1]

Amen.

We need to be making hard-copy printouts and electronic file copies of sources such as this, because some of them are disappearing from the web.
This one is precious and needs to be guarded with multiple copies.

.

My printer is low on ink right now or else I'd be making a hard copy right now (I can copy it to an electronic file though).