Where is my Indwelling Spirit?

[ViaCrucis]

Adam’s seed is the male seed which fertilizes the woman’s eggs to produce an embryo. This male seed became corrupted due to the fall.

All men came from Adam, with this corrupted seed except for Jesus.

There are many various propositions and hypotheticals about Original Sin.

There's no reason, however, to believe there is something about sperm cells that are uniquely corrupted.

I get that we want to find a nice easy explanation for how the Lord could be sinless while we are all sinners, and looking to the Virgin Birth and trying to come up with an explanation involving it is appealing. That's how the idea of Mary's Immaculate Conception came about after all.

The problem is that we don't actually have an explanation given to us. All that is revealed to us is that though Christ was born with our sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), He was, Himself, without sin (2 Corinthians 5:12). And the historic confession we maintain is that He was "like us in all ways, but without sin"--totally and completely human in every single way that we are, but without sin.

Since He was without sin, He was without Original Sin. How, exactly, the Lord was free of this is not given to us. Perhaps Mary really was conceived immaculate by a special divine grace as Roman Catholicism says, or perhaps not. It's impossible to say. Maybe there really is something about male gametes that is the problem, or maybe not (though, to be completely honest, I think that less likely than the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary).

We simply don't know, and it's okay if we don't know. What matters is that the Lord Jesus was truly, fully, and really human in all ways like ourselves, but yet entirely without sin. He could be tempted and yet not give in in even the slightest. He remained pure in thought, word, and deed and in every inclination of His humanity even as He bore our every weakness.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

ViaCrusis says... "The work of the Holy Spirit and the gift of God. If faith were a feeling, then it would just be another part of my fallible, sinful, depraved humanity."

Come on now ViaCrucis... Take some time to actually consider this before the Lord... Did God create man with a "...living soul..."?

Here's God's answer... Genesis 2:7... "Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."

Notice that "...man became a living soul..."... Not a dead soul... Which would be a soul that is "...fallible, sinful, depraved...".

Man's "...living soul..." only became dead (fallible, sinful, depraved) after Adam fell away for God through his disobedience to God's instruction in eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Before that happened... God, Himself declared His creation, which included man, to be "...very good..." (Gen. 1:31).

And God would certainly know that "...fallible, sinful, depraved..." is not "...very good...".

And since God also tells us that man's feeling is a part of the "...living soul..." that God created man with... Then man's "...feeling..." was once declared as being "...very good..." by God.

Scripture tells us that man's soul is made up of our mind (reference Prov. 2:10), emotion (Psa. 42:1), and will (Job 7:15)... The soul needs knowledge, which is related to the functioning of the mind... The soul experiences things like love, hatred, joy, and grief, which is related to the functioning of the emotion... And the soul chooses, which is related to the functioning of the will.

And again... When God created man, God breathed Himself into man, and man became a "...living soul...", which God then declared, along with the rest of creation, to be "...very good...".

Got that?

But then the fall took place... And man became corrupted with sin, and in this, became subject to sin (became fallible), and in this subjection to sin, man's actions became depraved... And all of this is indicative of man being in death.

But be clear... At the very beginning of the Bible, God clearly shows us that He created man with a perfectly good, as in "...living...", soul.
And an aspect of this perfectly good "...living..." soul was the emotion that was a part of the soul's tripartite makeup... This means that the feelings of the soul's emotion would have been "...very good..." in God's eyes... And this is proven by God asking man to name all the animals in Eden... "...And He brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called any living animal, that was its name..." (Gen. 2:19).

But then man disobeyed God and fell into death

So what we have in scripture is the story of man's soul, first being "...living...", which is God's eyes is righteous, and then being a dead soul, which is unrighteous.

It's true that Adam's soul was pure and undefiled by sin before the fall. But that's not what "living soul" means in Genesis 2. The "living" here refers to natural life, the Hebrew word nephesh refers to the breath of life. Adam was made a living thing, as opposed to the formerly dead and inanimate lump of matter previously. God took the dust of the earth, formed it, then breathed into it and made it alive, a living, breathing creature.

Okay...

But then, in the New Testament, we see God coming to the earth and taking on the flesh of man (the humanity that God created)... Which would have included man's soul since it's a part of man's flesh (man's humanity).

But there was a difference between God who took on the flesh of man and the rest of man... God who took on the flesh of man, Jesus, was not fathered out of man, but was fathered by God... Meaning... Jesus was both divine and human... Jesus was a divinely human Person.
And Jesus, in His humanity, was perfect in God's eyes (no sin was in Him, 1 Jhn. 3:5)... This would mean, the tripartite human aspects of Jesus' humanity, His body, soul, and spirit would have been perfect in God's eyes... Which would have meant that the three parts of His human soul — His mind, emotion, and will — would have been perfect in God's eyes.

I don't subscribe to tripartism. I would generally affirm that human beings are comprised are both material and immaterial; the immaterial being, for example, our mind, our soul, our spirit, etc; but these aren't discrete "parts" in some kind of anthropological schema. It's simply that human beings are fully physical and material creatures with an immaterial dimension. The "soul" or "spirit" are words used to describe that. But I don't view myself as having a soul and having a spirit and these are two distinct things, nor do I view myself as having a body and having a soul and these are entirely separate things. I am simply a human being, a living, breathing, animated creature with awareness, moral capacity and culpability and therefore endowed with reason (a "rational soul" as opposed to merely an "animal soul" like say a dog or cat have). Created in God's image to have relationship with Him, which has been broken and marred by sin and death by the fall, i.e. by Original Sin.

Also, while I doubt it was intentional on your part, I would be careful about an expression like "divinely human Person" as that is, as far as Christology is concerned, confusing.

Jesus Christ is truly and fully human and truly and fully God. As the Eternal Son and Word of the Father He is God, of the Father's own Essence and Being, homoousion with the Father as we confess in the Nicene Creed. In the Incarnation the Divine Person of the Son and Word united to Himself our human nature, was made truly, and fully human, of a rational soul and body; like us in all ways except sin. He wasn't a "divinely human Person"; He is a Divine Person who is also fully man. He is, therefore, called Theanthropos, God-Man. Fully God and fully human, without any confusion or separation in the undivided unity of His Person and Hypostasis.

As a Chalcedonian I confess it this way:

"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead* and complete in manhood**, truly God and truly human, consisting also of a rational soul and body; of one Being with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one being with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, eternally begotten of the Father, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the birth-giver of God [Theotokos]; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one Person and Hypostasis, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us." - Definition of Chalcedon, 451 AD

* aka Deity
** aka humanity

So what was the difference between Jesus' humanity, which was perfect in God's eyes, and fallen man's humanity, which was in death (fallible, sinful, and depraved)?

It was just one thing... The center and source of Jesus' humanity was God... Whereas the center and source of fallen man's humanity isn't God, it's sin.

Are you with me so far?

Not really. The difference between Jesus humanity and ours is that He was entirely without sin, that I understand. And I can even agree that the Lord, in His humanity, was grounded fully in God; by His love of His Father which was perfect, and which is why He was perfectly obedient in all things. I would also agree that, by the union with His own Divinity His humanity was special; insofar as we don't entertain any notion that His humanity was confused, intermingled, mixed, or otherwise lessened by His Divinity. That would lead us toward the heresy of Eutychianism which we need to avoid.

So I would need to better understand how you mean "the center and source of Jesus' humanity was God", do you mean it in the sense that Jesus was perfectly obedient to the Father out of the love which He had for His Father?

Okay... So what now?

God chooses to not leave fallen man condemned to the death that is the wages of sin... But instead, offer fallen man a way out of sin and death... Back into life.

And God doesn't say that He is going to recreate man from the dirt... But take any man who believes in[to] the Son and give this man eternal life by making him a new creation.

Or, in other words... God uses what He already created, and does so by recovering it out of the sin and death that man is in.

And how does God recover fallen man out of sin and death?

By coming into fallen man and causing fallen man to believe in the gospel of God toward man, and then, upon man believing in this gospel, God translates/transfers man into Christ Jesus, and in this, causing man to inwardly possess all that Christ Jesus is in His life and nature.

See... Although fallen man is fallible, sinful, and depraved... God is greater than all of man's fallen condition... And that is what God is displaying when He saves man out of our fallen condition.

And so if a person has been saved by God by being born-again of God... This person is just a normal human that has all the normal human attributes that God created man with... Only now, we as born-again of God believers, have God added to us... Meaning... A born-again of God believer is now a divine human.

No, I'm not a divine human. While I do affirm the historic Christian teaching on Theosis, this is an at-work process of being conformed to the image of Christ. Lutheran pastor Jordan Cooper would argue that the Lutheran understanding of Theosis should be better called Christification. That the sanctifying work of the Spirit, which is at work now and will be complete on the Last Day when we are raised up bodily from the dead, is conformity to Christ. It is by our union to Christ and our being conformed tot he image of Christ that we are "sharers in the Divine Nature" and thus undergoing Theosis. Though this is probably a much larger topic that deserves a far better and fuller treatment elsewhere.

However, I would fully reject the idea that the believer "is now a divine human". The believer is a justified sinner, being sanctified, and has a mystical union to Christ through faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit. But he/she is not a "divine human". Not even the Lord Jesus Himself, who is Himself truly and really God, was a "divine human".

This means that any human attribute that we have is also divine... Meaning... Our soul (mind, emotion, will) is divine... And even our physical body will one day be manifested as divine.

Good... I hope that you understand the above... Now to the matter of faith and feeling...

I reject the above as theologically in error.

Scripture tells us that faith is Jesus Christ in us as the working and operating of God within us... And this working and operating of God within us takes place in all aspects of our human being, including our soul, which includes our mind, emotion, and will.

This means that, since our feeling is a matter of our emotion, our feeling also contains God working and operating within us... And as such... Our emotion/feeling is fine, and even divine (of God).

Yet... We must also be aware of the fact that in His wisdom, God has left born-again of God believers with our old fallen man for a time... And we can, and often do, struggle between the old fallen man and our new creation man.

This is why we read in the following speaking from the apostle Paul...

Ephesians 4:20-24... "But you did not so earn Christ, . . . If indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him as the reality is in Jesus, . . . That you put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, . . . And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind . . . And put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality."

Having human feelings is perfectly fine if we are abiding in/holding to our new creation man, which is one with God... But human feelings which are in and out of holding to our old fallen man are just corrupted by sin.

And therefore... Where faith is concerned... We can certainly be perfectly fine having a feeling regarding faith working and operating within us... As long as we are abiding in/holding to our new creation man... Because our new creation man is one with God.

In fact... Scripture tells us that our new creation man is in and out of faith.

Why?... Because our new creation man is in Christ Jesus, of Christ Jesus, and unto Christ Jesus.

In fact... Our new creation man is Christ Jesus... In the context of being His body... We who are born-again of God are the many members of His one Body.

The problem you are having is that you are not clear about what the reality of being born-again of God is... This is probably true of all people who hold to Calvinism... And really... All who hold to any religion... As religion, in all its various forms, is just folly and not of God.

I'm not a Calvinist, I'm a Lutheran.

God, in His salvation economy toward man, is a Person... Not a religion.

He is Three Divine Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Our religion is Christianity.

And as this Person... God relates to man as a Person would relate to any other person... God has feelings, thoughts, and needs regarding man... And God does not use religion as a type of mediation facility through which to relate to man... God uses the Person of Christ Jesus.
This is where religion is exposed as evil... As religion tries to usurp the Person of Christ Jesus, by placing religion as a mediator between Him and man.

And God hates it.

Now I've taken the time to present the above to you because unless you are clear on the basics that I've presented above, you will never be able to become clear on anything else regarding God's relationship with man.

May the Lord help you see the reality of what I've said so that you may be brought deeper into Him.

Amen.

Our religion is the Person and work of Jesus Christ, so it can't be evil.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[biblelesson]

There are many various propositions and hypotheticals about Original Sin.

Who cares about the many propositions. There is only one truth that trumps all non-believers.

There are many various propositions and hypotheticals about Original Sin.

There's no reason, however, to believe there is something about sperm cells that are uniquely corrupted.

I get that we want to find a nice easy explanation for how the Lord could be sinless while we are all sinners, and looking to the Virgin Birth and trying to come up with an explanation involving it is appealing. That's how the idea of Mary's Immaculate Conception came about after all.

The corrupted seed God is referring to that has to be made incorruptible in order for man to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven is the seed of Adam.

Now what seed could this be talking about where all born after Adam has been made corrupted? There is only one seed in relation to men being born populating the earth, born of corruptible seed.

Seed is of the male that produces an offspring

Mark 12:19 KJV, “Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.”

Genesis 17:12 KJV, “And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.”

Leviticus 22:4 KJV, …”And whoso toucheth any thing that is unclean by the dead, or a man whose seed goeth from him;”

Genesis 38:9 KJV, “And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.”

Leviticus 22:3 KJV, “Say unto them, Whosoever he be off all your seed among your generations, that goeth unto the holy things, which the children of Israel hallow unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, that soul shall be cut off from my presence: I am the LORD.”

Jeremiah 33:26 KJV, “Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, sothat I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.”

Genesis 26:4 KJV, “And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;”

Jesus was not born of the corrupted male seed

Jesus was not born of the corrupted male seed. His father was not man, but God. Or else we would have had no savior. All men who don’t appreciate what lengths God went through to save them will pay the price.

Nonetheless, Jesus was born in the “likeness of sinful flesh.” God chose a virgin because virgins not touched by a man are pure. Second
God fertilized that virgins eggs with the seed of David through the Holy Ghost.

Jesus is the Son of God being born of the Holy Ghost, Luke 1:35 KJV, and Jesus is the seed of David, and when He returns He will sit on the throne of His father David, Luke 1:32 KJV

 

[biblelesson]

The problem is that we don't actually have an explanation given to us. All that is revealed to us is that though Christ was born with our sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), He was, Himself, without sin (2 Corinthians 5:12). And the historic confession we maintain is that He was "like us in all ways, but without sin"--totally and completely human in every single way that we are, but without sin.

Since He was without sin, He was without Original Sin. How, exactly, the Lord was free of this is not given to us.

There is an explanation given to us in the Bible!

Jesus WAS NOT born of sinful flesh. He was born in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, Romans 8:3 KJV. This is the reason He was without sin. He was not born of the corruptible seed, Adam. His was born of the incorruptible seed, God.

In my other reply post to you, I explain this.

 

[Divide]

Where did you learn about this salvation "economy" for man?

When I read that, it made me think of how we live on earth. There is a lot of security in poverty. Rich people have more mischief that they can afford than the poor man. I was still young when I noticed that a lot of millionaires go broke. So it's not like they don't have money problems because they do. Their problems are just on a larger scale than a poor man.

I am a poor man and praise God for it! Being poor keeps one clinging to the Lord, and praising Him at meals and such! This probably has nothing to do with what you and him were talking about, but it's what I thought of.

I aint missing any meals. My lights are on. I'm ok. What more can a man ask for?

 

[biblelesson]

On God's side the entrance is richly supplied. Therefore cooperate to go through the entrance.

No, I am not. The believers may postpone sanctification subjectively. But they cannot do so forever.
The Christian may procrastinate transformation. But before the age of the new heaven and new earth, he WILL BE transformed and sanctified.
If he goes along with this grace in a timely manner he will receive a reward.
If he does not go along, he will suffer loss during the millennial kingdom. Yet he will still be saved yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

I would hasten to add that the merciful shall obtain mercy. And I would hasten to add that as we judge others we too will be judged.
And I would hasten to also add that to whom much was given much will be expected. And God takes into account what one knows and what one was unaware of.

So I do not find such passages like (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:17-21; Eph. 5:3-5) to cause dispair. For we all usually feel short before the Lord.
But while not causing dispair they do cause me to be sober. And we who become more aware of these things should seize the time wisely.

Look therefore carefully how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise,
Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph. 5:15-17)


That is right. Nothing I wrote implies otherwise.
Do not attempt to portray me as teaching that non-believers can without the new birth be made holy.

That is right. You misunderstand me if you think I am teaching sanctification can be achieved by the unregenerated unbeliever.


That's right.
Now Paul sought a better resurrection. Or he had an ambition to attain to an outstanding resurrection.

To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. (Phil. 3:10,11)

Now we might ask Paul why he is concerned about attaining what he surely already is promised.
Ie. "Paul, you know good and well that as a born again Christian you will be resurrected."

He was talking about an extra honorable resurrection, a resurrection with some distinction.
He implies a common kind of resurrection and an uncommon outstanding resurrection.
The latter is his ambition to attain. He does not have the attitude that he has ALREADY attained to it.

Philippians 3:12-14 -
Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before, I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward.

I’m not a brother. I’m a female.

Now, brother, you are not using discernment.

 

[oikonomia]

I’m not a brother. I’m a female.

Now, brother, you are not using discernment.

Excuse me then, sister.
To tell the truth, I did consider for a moment that you were a female.

Maybe that was discernment missed.

 

[oikonomia]

When I read that, it made me think of how we live on earth. There is a lot of security in poverty. Rich people have more mischief that they can afford than the poor man. I was still young when I noticed that a lot of millionaires go broke. So it's not like they don't have money problems because they do. Their problems are just on a larger scale than a poor man.

I am a poor man and praise God for it! Being poor keeps one clinging to the Lord, and praising Him at meals and such! This probably has nothing to do with what you and him were talking about, but it's what I thought of.

I aint missing any meals. My lights are on. I'm ok. What more can a man ask for?

Yes, I guess a typical English speaker would immediately think about finance / money upon hearing the word economy.

It is interesting that you spoke of thankfulness in not being overly wealthy.
Some months ago I was enjoying a passage from James about this. It was James 1:9,10

And let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation,
And the rich in his being brought low, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away.

I mused on that "boast in his exaltation."
And being ever thankful is such a blessing.

 

[oikonomia]

The 5 virgins who were not ready did not have the Holy Spirit, therefore cannot be saved. The parable of the 10 virgins is similarly to the parable where the wedding guest did not have on a wedding garment, Matthew 22:11-13 KJV. The wedding garment is the Holy Spirit. The guest did not have the Holy Spirit just like the 5 virgins.

I often look for plain teaching to accompany a parable.
I think there is always clear and plain teaching WITH the Lord's parables.

The clear teaching of First Corinthians 3:15,16 teaches that some who are eternally saved will be rewarded in addition.
But some also eternally saved will suffer some kind of loss in spite of this.

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:15,16)

Wouldn't that clear apostolic teaching indicate some saved who have the Holy Spirit (Christians) suffer loss ?
" . . . he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, "

Wouldn't such a thing correspond to virgins awaiting the Bridegroom being short of a certain required oil of the Holy Spirit?
I mean both the wise and the foolish virgins had an initial lamp filled with oil.
The foolish lacked extra oil.

For the foolish, when they took their lamps, did not take oil with them;
But the prudent took oil in their vessels with their lamps. (Matt. 25:3,4)

The foolish virgins presummed that no reserve oil was needed just in case.
The foolish virgins did go pay the price for this reserve. But they did so DURING the festivities.
The foolish virgins suffered the loss of not being involved in this celebration because of being LATE with that which was required.

And as they were going away to buy, the bridegroom came; and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut. And later the rest of the virgins came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us!
But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you. (Matt. 25:10-12)

I think the plain teaching of 1 Cor. 3:15,16 well explains saved Christians nonetheless suffering loss of a particular celebration of Christ.

This understanding fits well if the oil does signify the Holy Spirit.
For the Holy Spirit is given to the believers forever. (John 14:16)

And there is that portion of the Holy Spirit which is given as a gift.
And there is that portion of the Holy Spirit for which we do pay some price, if we are wise and not foolish in our Christian life.

 

[biblelesson]

I often look for plain teaching to accompany a parable.
I think there is always clear and plain teaching WITH the Lord's parables.

The clear teaching of First Corinthians 3:15,16 teaches that some who are eternally saved will be rewarded in addition.
But some also eternally saved will suffer some kind of loss in spite of this.

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:15,16)

Wouldn't that clear apostolic teaching indicate some saved who have the Holy Spirit (Christians) suffer loss ?
" . . . he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, "

Wouldn't such a thing correspond to virgins awaiting the Bridegroom being short of a certain required oil of the Holy Spirit?
I mean both the wise and the foolish virgins had an initial lamp filled with oil.
The foolish lacked extra oil.

For the foolish, when they took their lamps, did not take oil with them;
But the prudent took oil in their vessels with their lamps. (Matt. 25:3,4)

The foolish virgins presummed that no reserve oil was needed just in case.
The foolish virgins did go pay the price for this reserve. But they did so DURING the festivities.
The foolish virgins suffered the loss of not being involved in this celebration because of being LATE with that which was required.

And as they were going away to buy, the bridegroom came; and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast. And the door was shut. And later the rest of the virgins came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us!
But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you. (Matt. 25:10-12)

I think the plain teaching of 1 Cor. 3:15,16 well explains saved Christians nonetheless suffering loss of a particular celebration of Christ.

This understanding fits well if the oil does signify the Holy Spirit.
For the Holy Spirit is given to the believers forever. (John 14:16)

And there is that portion of the Holy Spirit which is given as a gift.
And there is that portion of the Holy Spirit for which we do pay some price, if we are wise and not foolish in our Christian life.

I think what you pose is interesting and I want to respond; I want to follow your line of reasoning and show why the virgins were not saved.

First the suffering loss in 1 Corinthians 3:15-16 cannot be used as a reference scripture to say the 5 virgins were saved, but just wasn’t ready. The Christian suffering loss is not the same thing as not being ready when the bride groom comes - these are two different groups.

We have to look at the other scriptures to understand what Paul is saying.

Suffering loss and burning and abiding and reward

Group 1

You have those who say they are Christian preachers, teachers, performing some sort of Christian service, some sort of profession, (Just like the 5 virgins). Everyone who profess to be a Christian will be tried. So, when a man build on the foundation of Jesus, the sincerity of their work will be manifested, because the fire they will be tried by will reveal the truth about their their work, 1 Corinthians 3:12-13 KJV.

And, because no other foundation can be laid accept Jesus, we are warned to take heed to the foundation we lay, 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 KJV, because if we are found to have defile the temple of God, we will be destroyed, 1 Corinthians 3:17 KJV. These are not those in 1 Corinthians 3:15 KJV.

Group 2

Out of those who say they are Christians, their trials produces loss: loss of loved ones, loss of health, loss of status, etc., they go through the suffering for Christ, Philippians 1:29 KJV, 1 Peter 2:19-21 KJV, Matthew 10:22 KJV, and the the chastening of the Lord, Hebrews 12:7-8, under very fiery circumstances: these are those who endure will be saved, but by fire (furnace of affliction/fiery trials).

But after the suffering by fire, they are made perfect, 1 Peter 5:10 KJV, which is proof that their work is established on the foundation of Christ - and because of this if they endure they receive a reward, 1 Corinthians 3:14 KJV - All Christians receive a crown of glory and an inheritance in the kingdom.

So Paul is talking about two sets of people. The sheeps and the goats, the wheat and tairs. Jesus said let the wheat grow with the tair and he will separate them in the end. He will know them based on the foundation they build: did they bring forth the fruit of the gospel built upon the foundation of Christ?

1) Those who persevered through the fire had the Holy Spirit
2) Those who the fire proved they built built on the wrong foundation defiled the temple - they were without the Holy Spirit

This is the wheat (the body of Christ) and the tairs (among the body of Christ), Matthew 13:24-30 KJV

Those who Jesus say “I never knew you” to fit the tairs, Matthew 7:22-23 KJV, Matthew 25:11-12

You can’t always tell who are the tairs. Just like the 5 virgins who were not ready. What did Jesus tell them? I never knew you!

 

[biblelesson]

This understanding fits well if the oil does signify the Holy Spirit.
For the Holy Spirit is given to the believers forever. (John 14:16)

And there is that portion of the Holy Spirit which is given as a gift.
And there is that portion of the Holy Spirit for which we do pay some price, if we are wise and not foolish in our Christian life.

The 5 virgins had no oil (the Holy Spirit) when the bridegroom came.

The gifts of the Spirit are gifts we receive from the Spirit.

 

[oikonomia]

I think what you pose is interesting and I want to respond; I want to follow your line of reasoning and show why the virgins were not saved.

I'm interested to see your reasoning. But let me say I use 1 Cor. 3:15,16 in the way of application to the parable. I do not say it is the interpretation per se but the principles are applied to the parable. Keep that in mind.

First the suffering loss in 1 Corinthians 3:15-16 cannot be used as a reference scripture to say the 5 virgins were saved, but just wasn’t ready.

If the oil they had (which is so important to the parable) points to the Holy Spirit they have to be saved forever.
Unless you think perishing unbelievers obtain the Holy Spirit as they are sent to eternal punishment.
Do you believe that?

Also, while a marriage lasts for a long time a marriage feast is only a portion of that time in the union's beginning.
Christ marries the church for eternity. But the day of that celebration is that, a shorter portion of time.

The Christian suffering loss is not the same thing as not being ready when the bride groom comes - these are two different groups.
We have to look at the other scriptures to understand what Paul is saying.

Suffering loss and burning and abiding and reward

Group 1

You have those who say they are Christian preachers, teachers, performing some sort of Christian service, some sort of profession, (Just like the 5 virgins). Everyone who profess to be a Christian will be tried. So, when a man build on the foundation of Jesus, the sincerity of their work will be manifested, because the fire they will be tried by will reveal the truth about their their work, 1 Corinthians 3:12-13 KJV.

And, because no other foundation can be laid accept Jesus, we are warned to take heed to the foundation we lay, 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 KJV, because if we are found to have defile the temple of God, we will be destroyed, 1 Corinthians 3:17 KJV. These are not those in 1 Corinthians 3:15 KJV.

Again, since the virgins parable is not about service but prepardness in love for the Lord's return, I use 1 Cor. 3:15,16 as application rather than interpretation. I am mainly interested in the principle that some believers will be saved and rewarded and some are saved and suffer loss.
In Matthew 25 the faithfulness in service is covered in verse 14-30 on the talents.
Faithfulness in loving watchfulness is covered in verses 1-13.

The conclusion of the parable of the ten virgins is this - "Watch therefore, for you do not know the day nor the hour." (v.13)
Though prepardness of Christ's return is the key of the parable, I apply the prinicple of Christians being saved with reward or saved with loss to the parable. In that regard the correspondence holds. I agree that service of work is the point in 1 Cor. 3:10-11, and on to verse 17.

We'll come back to this because actually, the work there is really Christ working ON the beleivers so as to produce a quality substance to BUILD His temple. The suffering of loss to the saved Christian producing inferior buding materials which burn up should be related to verse 17.

If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (v.15)
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? (v.16)
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you. (v.17)

To be destroyed there means "suffer loss" of verse 15. But since the sufferer is still "saved, yet so as through fire" it cannot be eternal punishment. As for "saved, yet so as through fire" it reminds of Peter warning that the righteous man is saved with difficulty (or scacely).

For it is time for the judgment to begin from the house of God; and if first from us, what will be the end of those who disobey the gospel of God? And if the righteous man is saved only with difficulty, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear? (1 Pet. 4:18,19 RcV)

"Us" who are of the house of God are judged first. "Us" are the righteous who have obeyed the gospel.
The "ungodly and sinner" who "disobey the gospel" - "what will happen to them?" is Peter's open question.
Meanwhile those in the house of God (the church) are saved with difficulty.

I only mean to interpret that to be saved and suffer loss (as will happen to some)
corresponds to scarcely saved or saved with difficulty.
ESV - And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
KJV - And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
BLB - And, "If the righteous one is saved with difficulty, where will appear the ungodly and sinner?"

"Destroyed" in 1 Corinthians 3:17 should be "saved with difficulty" as in 1 Pet. 4:19
They have lived in a way that defile the church, marred the temple, and must suffer some loss for injecting something unholy into the holy church.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you. (1 Cor. 3:17,18)

I am saying that the principle of being saved yet suffering loss or being scarecly saved or saved with difficulty applies to the foolish virgins.
You would have to explain to us how those with the oil of the Holy Spirit are eternally destroyed.

Group 2

Out of those who say they are Christians, their trials produces loss: loss of loved ones, loss of health, loss of status, etc., they go through the suffering for Christ, Philippians 1:29 KJV, 1 Peter 2:19-21 KJV, Matthew 10:22 KJV, and the the chastening of the Lord, Hebrews 12:7-8, under very fiery circumstances: these are those who endure will be saved, but by fire (furnace of affliction/fiery trials).

The loss that you describe as trials are losses during the church age before His second coming.
The loss suffered by the saved in 1 Cor. 3:16 has to be at the judgment seat of Christ.
The judgment seat of Christ is at the conclusion of the church age and just before the millennial kingdom.
It is "the day" which as fire tests the quality of the Christians building work while He was building during the church age.

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is. (v.13)

But after the suffering by fire, they are made perfect, 1 Peter 5:10 KJV, which is proof that their work is established on the foundation of Christ - and because of this if they endure they receive a reward, 1 Corinthians 3:14 KJV - All Christians receive a crown of glory and an inheritance in the kingdom.

Again, the losses and trials passed through for Christ are during the church age.
The loss which Paul says some saved will suffer are instead of reward.
Discipline or reward are determined at the judgment seat of Christ when He returns.

Having said that I would agree that some already HAVE some reward through endurance. For some verses speak of holding fast to
the prize or reward already possessed in the midst of trial.

 

[oikonomia]

I come quickly; hold fast what you have that no one take your crown. (Rev. 3:11)
In that sense the enjoyment of Christ through trial is already a rewarding crown.
Let no one defraud you by judging you unworthy of your prize, (Col. 2:18a)
The Colossian Christians should be wary that they are robbed of the prize of their enjoyment of Christ in this age.

So Paul is talking about two sets of people.

Well, two sets in the parable of Matthew 25:1-13 -
1.) virgins prepared and on time
2.) virgins unprepared and late

Two sets in the teaching of 1 Cor. 3:13-16
1.) saved Christians rewarded
2.) saved Christians suffering loss

Both situations pertain to the conclusion of the church age.
1.) virgins going forth to meet the returning Bridegroom (His second coming)
2.) serving Christian builders examined at the judgment seat of Christ upon His return

I will grant that "saved, yet so as through fire" is unambiguously saved.
But also virgins with oil (the Holy Spirit) even though obtained LATE in relation to the marriage feast, has to also be saved.

If you argue that the foolish virgins obtain oil you suggest the the lost get saved but get saved too late.
For the possession of the Holy Spirit surely makes one a child of the Father.

If you are able to receive it, the best interpretation is that the oil in the lamp is the Holy Spirit in the human spirit.
And the extra oil in the vessel WITH the lamp is the Holy Spirit spread into the soul.
The first is from the gift of being born again.
The second is from the price paid to deny yourself that Christ fill and saturate the personality of the soul.

. . . ten virgins, who took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And five of them were foolish and five were prudent.
For the foolish, when they took their lamps, did not take oil with them;
But the prudent took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

As we await the Lord's return it is foolish to consider after a long Christian life there was no need other than to be born again.
As we await the Lord's returtn is is wise that after being reborn we allow His Spirit to fill more and more of our living.

Five is a number signifying responsibility. Five wise and five foolish does not mean half the church is foolish and half is wise.
It means the responsibility to wise or foolish is up to each Christian.
As the Bridegroom delayed the saints in the church died. They became drowsy and slept.
One day all will awake in resurrection to go forth at midnight to meet the Lord in His return.

At that time some will realize it was foolish for them to have neglected fuller sanctification by His Spirit of the soul.
And some are confirmed that it was wise for them to live a life of more thorough saturation of their personality with His Spirit.

Now put aside doctrine for a moment. Just consider the realistic truth of church history.
Some believers presumptuosly and foolishly neglect the Spirit's influence on their living besides having been forgiven of their past.
Some believers prudently and soberly realize the Spirit must spread His influence over as much of their soul as He wishes.

Do you know Christians who seem to have no fear of meeting the Lord just as they were as unsaved?
Sometimes you and I have foolish moments when we neglect the Spirit's influence over our living.
So we need to have a habit of allowing the Holy Spirit to be not only our oil in the spirit but the extra oil in the soul.

The sheeps and the goats, the wheat and tairs. Jesus said let the wheat grow with the tair and he will separate them in the end. He will know them based on the foundation they build: did they bring forth the fruit of the gospel built upon the foundation of Christ?

The goats going into the eternal fire could not mean saved. (Matt. 25:46)
And these [goats] shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous [sheep] into eternal life.
That cannot be saved and rewarded as opposed to saved and suffer loss of 1 Corintians 3.15,16.
Nor does it make sense the those with the Holy Spirit [foolish virgins] (Matt. 25:10) go into eternal punishment.

Christians who are saved yet loss reward are still genuine Christians. They may damage the holy building of the church.
And this may be the work of the enemy through them. But they are not false believers. They are chronically immature ones.

Christians who discover that thier lake of their souls' sanctification when the wedding feast comes are not false Christians.
They are Christians who did not consider the wisdom of using their time to be filled with the soul transforming Spirit.

Probably the foolish Christians thought those who DID give attention to practical filling of their souls with the Holy Spirit were doing something unnecessary. At the time of the wedding feast upon His return and their resurrection, they discover it was rather foolish to neglect preparation.

Those two passages, the sheep and goats and the wheat and tares, are about other important matters of God's judgement though.

1) Those who persevered through the fire had the Holy Spirit
2) Those who the fire proved they built built on the wrong foundation defiled the temple - they were without the Holy Spirit

For a moment put aside doctrine and consider experience. Consider church history.
Genuinly born again Christians mar, defile, deface the church by refusing to mature. But they are saved.
Likewise genuinely born again Christians seem to have no conscern that the Lord may come at any moment.
They continue to neglect preparation assuming that being reborn is all that is needed for His return.

While rebirth prepares us for justification forever something of reward is extended to those who wisely let Christ fill their personality
in preparation for the celebration of His finally returning.

The Wife makes herself ready for the celebration of this special time, this moment of rejoicing.

Revelation 19:7,8 (RcV) -
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.
And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.

"Righteousnesses" is not a typo. It is also rendered righteous DEEDS. So it is beyond the preparation of Justification by Faith.
It is the wise performing of righteous DEEDS - righteousness-ES, ie. righteous living, behavior, in preparation of meeting the Lord.

Other English rendering of verse 8.
ESV - for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
BLB - For the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
NIV - (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
NASB - for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Amplified - for the fine linen signifies the righteous acts of the saints [the ethical conduct, personal integrity, moral courage, and godly character of believers].
CEV - This linen stands for the good things God's people have done."

This is the wheat (the body of Christ) and the tairs (among the body of Christ), Matthew 13:24-30 KJV

Actually the wheat and the tares are gowing together in "the world" (13:38)
The field is not the church but the world.
And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; (v.38)

Those who Jesus say “I never knew you” to fit the tairs, Matthew 7:22-23 KJV, Matthew 25:11-12

The Lord could be saying there "I never approved" or "I never allowed" or "I never acknowledged" you.
For the word used in verse 23 is the same as in Romans 7:15 meaning approved.
For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do.

Some Christians did things in His name yet their method, their spirit, their way of working He never approved.
The Apostle Paul even had a sober fear that his methods would not be disapproved on that day. See 1 Cor. 9:27.

KJ21 - lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
CJB - after proclaiming the Good News to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
AMPC - after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit].
CEV - so I won't lose out after telling the good news to others.
TLB - Otherwise I fear that after enlisting others for the race, I myself might be declared unfit and ordered to stand aside.

You can’t always tell who are the tairs. Just like the 5 virgins who were not ready. What did Jesus tell them? I never knew you!

It is a good point.
But we often assume too binary a situation. IE. People are either saved or lost.
While it is true people will either be saved forever or lost forever, there is ample ground in the whole Bible showing
you could be saved and scolded,
saved and disciplined,
saved and suffer loss,
saved and put aside,
saved with temporary chastizement.

Thankyou though for your labor to explain your thoughts there.

 

[Laodicean60]

Do you distinguish between your human soul and your human spirit?

My soul comprises 50 years of information that has shaped my beliefs today. The Tree of Knowledge is what screwed up society because you can't do anything wrong without being taught. Notice the word "don't" is a green light for kids to figure out why behind their parent's backs. I have a better understanding of human spirit/ consciousness by listening to NDEers. Peace

 

[tonychanyt]

I have a better understanding of human spirit/ consciousness by listening to NDEers. Peace

What are NDEers?

So do you make a distinction between your soul and your spirit?

 

[Laodicean60]

What are NDEers?

So do you make a distinction between your soul and your spirit?

Near Death Experiance people who were sent back. I thought I made a distinction but yes.

 

[tonychanyt]

Near Death Experiance people who were sent back. I thought I made a distinction but yes.

Check What happens to your soul when you die?

 

[Laodicean60]

Check What happens to your soul when you die?

Well, I have to disagree with all that encompasses the soul. Consciousness in quantum science and spirit is interchangeable in my view. Couldn't you imagine bringing all our garbage to heaven? God doesn't want us to carry the tree of knowledge. He wants it as before. Peace

 

[tonychanyt]

Well, I have to disagree with all that encompasses the soul. Consciousness in quantum science and spirit is interchangeable in my view. Couldn't you imagine bringing all our garbage to heaven? God doesn't want us to carry the tree of knowledge. He wants it as before. Peace

Respond at What happens to your soul when you die?. Let's continue there

 

[Laodicean60]

Respond at What happens to your soul when you die?. Let's continue there

I'd like to hear your opinion on what I said. What I learned years ago is that throwing bible verses isn't effective because there are other verses that can be used for the argument or against it, that's tribalism. Look at the tribalism in forums always two camps. We have bible knowledge in our brains but is it in our hearts? But you won't understand what I posted because you're coming from a position of ignorance. You haven't looked into my information and what if God gave us a glimpse? Peace.