Where is my Indwelling Spirit?

[Above & Beyond]

"What is this '...trust...' if not a feeling?"

The work of the Holy Spirit and the gift of God. If faith were a feeling, then it would just be another part of my fallible, sinful, depraved humanity. Faith isn't something I work in myself, but rather what God graciously gives me, works in me, creates in me, and strengthens through the Gospel.

I can take no credit for my faith, it is the gift of God. I have nothing in or of myself with which to boast. Nothing. Null. Zilch. Notta.



What was the contradiction?



At no point was I being vague.

I belong to Jesus Christ because I'm baptized. Jesus Christ baptized me and the Triune Name of God was spoken over me, and God declares that all who have been baptized have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), have been buried and died with Christ, and raised up together with Christ to new life (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-13).

If I looked to how I felt, if I looked inside myself to find something trustworthy and true, I would despair and be hopeless--for there is nothing of myself of worth before God, I am full of sin and death. But God, who is rich in mercy, has sent Jesus Christ, who died for me. That is my assurance, and God Himself works and creates faith in me through His word that I should not despair, but trust Christ.

It is the word of God alone, outside of myself, that gives me hope and through which the Spirit Himself works and gives me faith.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrusis says... "The work of the Holy Spirit and the gift of God. If faith were a feeling, then it would just be another part of my fallible, sinful, depraved humanity."

Come on now ViaCrucis... Take some time to actually consider this before the Lord... Did God create man with a "...living soul..."?

Here's God's answer... Genesis 2:7... "Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."

Notice that "...man became a living soul..."... Not a dead soul... Which would be a soul that is "...fallible, sinful, depraved...".

Man's "...living soul..." only became dead (fallible, sinful, depraved) after Adam fell away for God through his disobedience to God's instruction in eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Before that happened... God, Himself declared His creation, which included man, to be "...very good..." (Gen. 1:31).

And God would certainly know that "...fallible, sinful, depraved..." is not "...very good...".

And since God also tells us that man's feeling is a part of the "...living soul..." that God created man with... Then man's "...feeling..." was once declared as being "...very good..." by God.

Scripture tells us that man's soul is made up of our mind (reference Prov. 2:10), emotion (Psa. 42:1), and will (Job 7:15)... The soul needs knowledge, which is related to the functioning of the mind... The soul experiences things like love, hatred, joy, and grief, which is related to the functioning of the emotion... And the soul chooses, which is related to the functioning of the will.

And again... When God created man, God breathed Himself into man, and man became a "...living soul...", which God then declared, along with the rest of creation, to be "...very good...".

Got that?

But then the fall took place... And man became corrupted with sin, and in this, became subject to sin (became fallible), and in this subjection to sin, man's actions became depraved... And all of this is indicative of man being in death.

But be clear... At the very beginning of the Bible, God clearly shows us that He created man with a perfectly good, as in "...living...", soul.
And an aspect of this perfectly good "...living..." soul was the emotion that was a part of the soul's tripartite makeup... This means that the feelings of the soul's emotion would have been "...very good..." in God's eyes... And this is proven by God asking man to name all the animals in Eden... "...And He brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called any living animal, that was its name..." (Gen. 2:19).

But then man disobeyed God and fell into death

So what we have in scripture is the story of man's soul, first being "...living...", which is God's eyes is righteous, and then being a dead soul, which is unrighteous.

Okay...

But then, in the New Testament, we see God coming to the earth and taking on the flesh of man (the humanity that God created)... Which would have included man's soul since it's a part of man's flesh (man's humanity).

But there was a difference between God who took on the flesh of man and the rest of man... God who took on the flesh of man, Jesus, was not fathered out of man, but was fathered by God... Meaning... Jesus was both divine and human... Jesus was a divinely human Person.
And Jesus, in His humanity, was perfect in God's eyes (no sin was in Him, 1 Jhn. 3:5)... This would mean, the tripartite human aspects of Jesus' humanity, His body, soul, and spirit would have been perfect in God's eyes... Which would have meant that the three parts of His human soul — His mind, emotion, and will — would have been perfect in God's eyes.

So what was the difference between Jesus' humanity, which was perfect in God's eyes, and fallen man's humanity, which was in death (fallible, sinful, and depraved)?

It was just one thing... The center and source of Jesus' humanity was God... Whereas the center and source of fallen man's humanity isn't God, it's sin.

Are you with me so far?

Okay... So what now?

God chooses to not leave fallen man condemned to the death that is the wages of sin... But instead, offer fallen man a way out of sin and death... Back into life.

And God doesn't say that He is going to recreate man from the dirt... But take any man who believes in[to] the Son and give this man eternal life by making him a new creation.

Or, in other words... God uses what He already created, and does so by recovering it out of the sin and death that man is in.

And how does God recover fallen man out of sin and death?

By coming into fallen man and causing fallen man to believe in the gospel of God toward man, and then, upon man believing in this gospel, God translates/transfers man into Christ Jesus, and in this, causing man to inwardly possess all that Christ Jesus is in His life and nature.

See... Although fallen man is fallible, sinful, and depraved... God is greater than all of man's fallen condition... And that is what God is displaying when He saves man out of our fallen condition.

And so if a person has been saved by God by being born-again of God... This person is just a normal human that has all the normal human attributes that God created man with... Only now, we as born-again of God believers, have God added to us... Meaning... A born-again of God believer is now a divine human.

This means that any human attribute that we have is also divine... Meaning... Our soul (mind, emotion, will) is divine... And even our physical body will one day be manifested as divine.

Good... I hope that you understand the above... Now to the matter of faith and feeling...

Scripture tells us that faith is Jesus Christ in us as the working and operating of God within us... And this working and operating of God within us takes place in all aspects of our human being, including our soul, which includes our mind, emotion, and will.

This means that, since our feeling is a matter of our emotion, our feeling also contains God working and operating within us... And as such... Our emotion/feeling is fine, and even divine (of God).

Yet... We must also be aware of the fact that in His wisdom, God has left born-again of God believers with our old fallen man for a time... And we can, and often do, struggle between the old fallen man and our new creation man.

This is why we read in the following speaking from the apostle Paul...

Ephesians 4:20-24... "But you did not so earn Christ, . . . If indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him as the reality is in Jesus, . . . That you put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, . . . And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind . . . And put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality."

Having human feelings is perfectly fine if we are abiding in/holding to our new creation man, which is one with God... But human feelings which are in and out of holding to our old fallen man are just corrupted by sin.

And therefore... Where faith is concerned... We can certainly be perfectly fine having a feeling regarding faith working and operating within us... As long as we are abiding in/holding to our new creation man... Because our new creation man is one with God.

In fact... Scripture tells us that our new creation man is in and out of faith.

Why?... Because our new creation man is in Christ Jesus, of Christ Jesus, and unto Christ Jesus.

In fact... Our new creation man is Christ Jesus... In the context of being His body... We who are born-again of God are the many members of His one Body.

The problem you are having is that you are not clear about what the reality of being born-again of God is... This is probably true of all people who hold to Calvinism... And really... All who hold to any religion... As religion, in all its various forms, is just folly and not of God.

God, in His salvation economy toward man, is a Person... Not a religion.

And as this Person... God relates to man as a Person would relate to any other person... God has feelings, thoughts, and needs regarding man... And God does not use religion as a type of mediation facility through which to relate to man... God uses the Person of Christ Jesus.
This is where religion is exposed as evil... As religion tries to usurp the Person of Christ Jesus, by placing religion as a mediator between Him and man.

And God hates it.

Now I've taken the time to present the above to you because unless you are clear on the basics that I've presented above, you will never be able to become clear on anything else regarding God's relationship with man.

May the Lord help you see the reality of what I've said so that you may be brought deeper into Him.

Amen.

 

[Above & Beyond]

Say on O Mature One.
Sure, may the Lord grow in us and spread into our woeful immaturity.

I have already forgiven you for any personal offense.
I have written plenty of long discussions on this board without links.
I have learned it is best to often pray before and after posting.

And if I feel led to do as happened to me, that is to bless others by showing where they can receive more, I'll do it.
I've got pages of fellowship out there. And there was no intent to show "Look at me everyone. I can say something original."

You better get use to it if you see me do so again.

So now you're boasting publicly about "...forgiven you for any personal offense."
Do you not properly understand this...

Matthew 6:1... "But take care not to do your righteousness before men in order to be gazed at by them; otherwise, you have no reward with your Father who is in the heavens."

As I said... May the Lord bring you into maturity in His time.

Amen.

 

[Above & Beyond]

Oikonomia, your explanation is not scriptural. We can’t say I think. We must say what the Bible says regarding the matter.

When Christ died on the cross, the world was crucified with him, 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV, that is our old man, which is the Ademic nature, Romans 6:6 KJV. Notice that the verse says “that the body of sin might be destroyed.” The body of sin being destroyed automatically brought in the Last Adam, Christ Jesus who has purchased us and we receive an inheritance into the kingdom, Ephesians 1:14 KJV; we are given a new body, the new man, that is we are born again, 1 Peter 1:23 KJV, and we receive the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 KJV,

The Holy Spirit in us is God’s seed that makes us children of God. And God can’t sin, that’s why the Bible tells us that “we cannot sin” 1 John 3:9 KJV. If a person don’t believe in Jesus, they cannot receive the Holy Spirit, therefore they are left sinners.

When a believer is resurrected, the believer is raised by the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, Romans 8:11 KJV. The body of sin remains on the cross.

You said,
“I suspect that even for the Christian, the neglect of transformation and sanctification will have some not too good
conseqencess when he is resurrected.”

The consequences is that these are not Christians because they do not have the Holy Spirit to perform the completed work; they are not saved.

A Christian cannot neglect sanctification nor transformation because the One in Charge is the Holy Spirit. We have no ability to sanctify ourselves.

The 5 virgins who were not ready did not have the Holy Spirit, therefore cannot be saved. The parable of the 10 virgins is similarly to the parable where the wedding guest did not have on a wedding garment, Matthew 22:11-13 KJV. The wedding garment is the Holy Spirit. The guest did not have the Holy Spirit just like the 5 virgins.

Biblelesson... You're correct in saying that we must say what the Bible says regarding a matter... That's why God gave us His written word.

But... Not everything is revealed in the Bible, and so, regarding certain things that are not revealed in the Bible... Or more specifically... Not immediately clearly revealed in the Bible (as I have often found that throughout the years God reveals things in the Bible that I hadn't seen before)... We can certainly have thoughts about.

BUT... Our thoughts must still be brought under the killing work of the cross... And an aspect of this is that our thoughts should not cause confusion and division within the one Body of Christ... Our thoughts must build up the Body.

Now regarding transformation and sanctification...
The apostle Paul tells us that we must "...work out your own salvation..."...

Paul does not tell us that the Holy Spirit will work out our salvation.

Do you see that?

And later on... We read that the Bride has made herself ready... And not that the Holy Spirit has made herself ready.

Do you see that?

Both indicate that there is a need for the born-again of God believer to carry out some type of activity regarding what takes place after we are born-again of God... This means that we have some responsibility in the transforming, conforming sanctification work that takes place within us.

This responsibility on our side is spoken to in the parable of the master that gave three servants/slaves various amounts of talents to look after while he was away... And when the master came back, the two who had done something with the talents they had received were congratulated and rewarded by the master... But the one who did nothing with the talent the master had given him was chastised by the master and then was "...cast out... into the outer darkness.

And in this parable, we can know the following...

1... All three servants/slaves had the same master.
2... All three servants/slaves received talents from the same master.
3... This master did not cast the evil servant/slave into Hades/Sheol, but into another place called outer darkness, where the servant/slave would only suffer "...weeping and gnashing of teeth...", and eternal death.

Be clear that only those who are born-again of God have a Master, Christ Jesus, that can tell His servants/slaves to "...Enter into the joy of your master."

Therefore... Since all three had the same master, then even the third would have been born-again of God... As this is the only way all three could have had the same master.

And unsaved person does not have Christ Jesus as their master... Satan is their master.

And the same is applicable to the parable of the ten virgins... Who all had "...oil..." in their lamps, which, according to scripture, is indicative of having the Spirit in us.

Amen.

 

[Above & Beyond]

"What is this '...trust...' if not a feeling?"

The work of the Holy Spirit and the gift of God. If faith were a feeling, then it would just be another part of my fallible, sinful, depraved humanity. Faith isn't something I work in myself, but rather what God graciously gives me, works in me, creates in me, and strengthens through the Gospel.

I can take no credit for my faith, it is the gift of God. I have nothing in or of myself with which to boast. Nothing. Null. Zilch. Notta.



What was the contradiction?



At no point was I being vague.

I belong to Jesus Christ because I'm baptized. Jesus Christ baptized me and the Triune Name of God was spoken over me, and God declares that all who have been baptized have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), have been buried and died with Christ, and raised up together with Christ to new life (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-13).

If I looked to how I felt, if I looked inside myself to find something trustworthy and true, I would despair and be hopeless--for there is nothing of myself of worth before God, I am full of sin and death. But God, who is rich in mercy, has sent Jesus Christ, who died for me. That is my assurance, and God Himself works and creates faith in me through His word that I should not despair, but trust Christ.

It is the word of God alone, outside of myself, that gives me hope and through which the Spirit Himself works and gives me faith.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis says... "Faith isn't something I work in myself, but rather what God graciously gives me, works in me, creates in me, and strengthens through the Gospel."

All that is true... Except for the "...strengthens me through the gospels part..."... Faith is strengthened by our exercising the faith we have been given/received from God... The gospels don't strengthen our faith... Our reading scripture while exercising our faith is what strengthens our faith.

But then we come to this scripture verse...

Matthew 17:20... "And He said to them, Because of your little faith; for truly I say to you, If you have faith like a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, Move from here to there, and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

Notice... "...Because of your little faith; for truly I say to you, If you have faith like a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain...".

This... "...your little faith...", and this "...you have faith...", and this "...you will say...".

If faith is all about "...Faith isn't something I work in myself...", how can the Lord be speaking as though we have faith?

James 1:3... "Knowing that the proving of your faith works out endurance."

Whose faith?

"...your faith...".

But... We get this faith that is absolutely ours... From God...

2 Peter 1:1... "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:...".

Moving on...

You said... "I belong to Jesus Christ because I'm baptized. Jesus Christ baptized me and the Triune Name of God was spoken over me, and God declares that all who have been baptized have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), have been buried and died with Christ, and raised up together with Christ to new life (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-13)."

Actually, no... You belong to Jesus because He caused you to believe in[to] Him.

Your baptism was just an outward testimony of the inward reality that you were brought into when you first believed in[to] the Son.
When you first believed in[to] Christ Jesus, you were brought into His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension... But outwardly, this reality of your eternal salvation has not yet been fully manifested... Your baptism is just an aspect of your outward manifestation of the inward reality you possess as a born-again of God believer.

Moving on...

You said... "If I looked to how I felt, if I looked inside myself to find something trustworthy and true, I would despair and be hopeless--for there is nothing of myself of worth before God, I am full of sin and death."

Which would either indicate that you have not been born-again of God... Or that you're clueless (blind) to the reality of what being born-again of God actually is.

Do you not believe/know that Christ Jesus is in you, one with you, and you, one with Him?

If you say you do believe this... Then how can you say that "...If I looked to how I felt, if I looked inside myself to find something trustworthy and true, I would despair and be hopeless--for there is nothing of myself of worth before God, I am full of sin and death."...?

That would be you calling the Christ Jesus in you, who scripture tells us is joined to us, one with us, nothing of value to God.

Unfortunately, this is where the folly of your Calvinist religion fails you... It has only taught you a lie... Not the truth.

Moving on...

You said... "But God, who is rich in mercy, has sent Jesus Christ, who died for me. That is my assurance, and God Himself works and creates faith in me through His word that I should not despair, but trust Christ."

And yet... Here you are, both denying that you have faith, and denying that anything good is in you.

Do you not see how confused you are?

Moving on...

You continued... "It is the word of God alone, outside of myself, that gives me hope and through which the Spirit Himself works and gives me faith."

And here it seems that you don't know what the economy of God's salvation toward men is... And as a result... Must be absolutely clueless as to how you walk by faith.

Amen.

 

[oikonomia]

You are correct, but let’s take our time.

Looking closely at the scripture you listed, Romans 8:29 KJV, you will see that the power to conform the Christian is being done by God: “He also predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son.” God required that the Christians posses Christ image, and there is no way we can do this ourselves because we have been crucified on the cross with Christ, we are dead, Colossians 3:3 KJV.

Of course the work is done by God. But it is done with the cooperation of the Christian.
Pauls says EGO has [no] longer lives, on one hand. But not so fast. EGO does live with Christ living in him.

I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Gal. 2:20)

1.) He is terminated with Christ - I am crucified with Christ
2.) So it is no longer "I" who live - it is no longer I who live,
3.) But he must live in resurrection because Christ now living in "me" - but it is Christ who lives in me
4.) So "I" does live after all (blended with Christ) and the life which I now live
5.) This new "I" lives in the flesh in faith, His faith in fact - I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God,

The new "I" who lives cooperates with the conforming Triune God NOT nullifying the grace of God - I do not nullify the grace of God; (v.21)

What God Has done is moved the Christian out of the way, and sealed them before starting the work on them through the Holy Spirit.

He moved him out of the way and raised him to now live in cooperative faith as we see in Galatians 2:20,21
We also see the we being crucified with Christ have God working in us both the willing and the working for His good pleasure.
In resurrection we work out this our own salvation with cooperation. God operates and we CO-operate.

So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:13)

When a person believes on Christ, then starts the sanctification process directed entirely by God by His Spirit.

Now I believe you are saying what I said.

It’s only after the believer receives the Holy Spirit, that they go through the sanctification process where he/she must put the actions of the old man off, Ephesians 4:22 KJV, and put the new man on, Ephesians 4:24 KJV, so that what God has already done on the cross, will manifest in the body of the believer, 2 Corinthians 4:10 KJV.

Therefore the exhortation to put on the new man.

And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind
And put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality. (Eph. 4:22,23)

I invite you enjoy singing along with me a scripture song I wrote on this verse.

God accomplishes conforming the believer through His word, the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believe, Romans 1:16 KJV.

That's wonderful.
Just as wonderful is that Peter says this sanctification was taking place to LEAD the unbeliever chosen by God TO the sprinkling of the redeeming blood. According to Peter's view we can even thank the Lord that He was leading us to the blood in sanctification of the Holy Spirit before we even got saved.

First Peter 1:2a - Chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father in the sanctification of the Spirit unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Through God’s salvation process we are growing into the likeness of His Son, which does take time as you said. But God will accomplish it for the true believer, 1 Thessalonians 5:24 KJV. It is God Who is doing the work, Philippians 2:13 KJV.

 

[oikonomia]

The exhortation nature of Philippians indicates that our cooperation is needed.

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:13)

May we cooperate. IT would be foolish to not heed the exhortation. To not heed is not impossible.
Otherwise there would be no exhortation. And many, many other similar exhortations are in the NT.

First Thess 5:17-22 is a list of representative exhortations also SO THAT verse 23 might be realized. And we have the assurance from verse 24
that on His side, God is faithful.


Unceasingly pray, (v.17)

1Th 5:18 In everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit;

1Th 5:20 Do not despise prophecies,

1Th 5:21 But prove all things. Hold fast to what is good;

1Th 5:22 Abstain from every kind of evil.

1Th 5:23 And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24 Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it.

The example you are giving relating to a seed growing has to do with earthly seeds that are planted and grows.

The analogy of a growing seed is applicable. The divine life of the kingdom grows.
Mark 4:26-29 -

And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth,
And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens — how, he does not know.
The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.
But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come.

You see?
The sprouting of the seed is one stage of growth.
The lengthening is another stage.
The appearance of the blade is another stage.
The appearance of the ear is another stage.
The full grain appearing in the ear yet a further stage of growth.
The ripeness of the plant is another sage.
The Harvest occurs because the growth has reached maturity.

This is about the kingdom of the heavens of God growing in man.

God is planted in the church and they are to grow with "the growth of God."

" . . . holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God. " (Col. 2:19)

The Holy Spirit in us is God’s seed that makes us children of God. And God can’t sin, that’s why the Bible tells us that “we cannot sin” 1 John 3:9 KJV. If a person don’t believe in Jesus, they cannot receive the Holy Spirit, therefore they are left sinners.

 

[oikonomia]

The audience of First John 3:9 is exhorted to CONFESS their sins.
Therefore as the divine life of this seed grows, they enhance this process by confession and cleansing all along the way.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

In order to guard against the error of "sinless perfection" John warns that none of us can say we [DO NOT] have the sin nature.

If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (v.8)
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (v.10)

In Church history there were occasionally movements proclaiming that upon becomming believers it was impossible for them to sin. This was deceiving themselves. And it often led to scandals which brought disrepute to the Gospel. The biblical teaching is that upon receiving the divine sinless seed we still must confess for the process of its growth. Then our soul will more and more benefit into not sinning by the growth of the divine life.

When you put the three verses together, verses 8 - 9 - 10 the clearer situation is seen.

If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

God’s SEED does not grow like seeds on earth.

The analogy I used did not imply it is not a matter of God's life growing IN MAN, not in the soil of the earth.
The analogy Jesus uses means the kingdom life growing as would the growth of plants in the earth's soil. (Mark 4:26-29)

The parable of Matt. 13:1-23 (which He interprets for us) shows it is a matter of something growing in the human heart.
The four kinds of soils signify the condition of the hearts of men.
The best result is the growth of the one who keeps his heart dealing with the problems which hinder the growth of the Lord's seed.
This kind of dealt with heart He calls "the good earth."

But the one sown on the good earth, this is he who hears the word and understands, who by all means bears fruit and produces, one a hundredfold, and one sixtyfold, and one thirtyfold. (13:23)

This seed 1 John 3:9 KJV is speaking of is the Holy Spirit, placed in the believer, as the new birth, born again, that is born of God. No longer born of Adam. Through God’s actual seed implanted in us, we are His actual, real children, we receive an inheritance in the Kingdom of God. We inherit New Jerusalem, which our inheritance is broken down in Revelation.

If all things are normal we will inherit the kingdom of God especially in its stage as the millennial reward.
If we do not cooperate - we are warned, we CHRISTIANS are warned the certain representative lifestyles will forfiet our reward
to inherit the kingdom of God.

Three warnings are virtually repeated by the Apostle Paul. The works of the flesh MUST be dealt with so that we might normally inherit the kingdom.

Warning #1 -
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9,10)
The audience is Christians.

Warning #2 -
And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects,
Envyings, bouts of drunkenness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal. 5:19-21)
The audience again is Christians.

Warning #3 -
And obscenity and foolish talking or sly, filthy jesting, which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks.
For this you realize, knowing that every fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolater) has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Eph. 5:4,5)
Again the audience is Christians.

The errors listed in these passages are not exhaustive. They are only samples and representative - "such things" "things like these".

Think of human fathers who leave an inheritance to their children who are of their seed. It’s the same premise.

Human inheritance is based on the earthly. Spiritual inheritance is based on the heavenly.
There is no growth period to be born again. Just like there is no growth period to be saved.

No. To be born again is for growing again.
The children, the young men, the fathers had all been born again.
The varied levels proves that they were at varied levels of growth.

I write to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you because of His name.
I write to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, young children, because you know the Father.
I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong and the word of God abides in you and you have overcome the evil one. (1 John 2:12-14)

We Christians are at varied levels of maturity in the growth of this divine seed.
Because it is a matter of growth Paul writes of the church growing up into Christ in all things.

But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ, (Eph. 4:15)

The end of the process is growth to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ - corporately a FUll-GROWN MAN.

Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (v.13)

We are exhorted to not remain immature little children.

That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching . . . (v.14)

All this is about Christ's life growing in men and women. These verses show such growth in more than just for
individual spirituality. It is a matter of the Body of Christ growing in this life of the Head - Christ.
As a matter of fact it is good to tell the Lord that for the sake of His church, His Body, He must grow in us.
Our growth in life is for His eternal purpose. This really makes Him growing in us related to His purpose.

For length's sake I stop this post here.

 

[oikonomia]

God’s SEED does not grow like seeds on earth. This seed 1 John 3:9 KJV is speaking of is the Holy Spirit, placed in the believer, as the new birth, born again, that is born of God. No longer born of Adam. Through God’s actual seed implanted in us, we are His actual, real children, we receive an inheritance in the Kingdom of God. We inherit New Jerusalem, which our inheritance is broken down in Revelation.

When Paul speaks of "the growth of God" he cannot mean simply -
1.) Natural growth of man.
2.) Mere encrease of information, knowledge rather than living.

He must be speaking of Christ growing.
He must be speaking of the grace of Christ growing.
That would be the gaining of Christ.

Paul wanted to GAIN Him. This means though he was born again he could ENCREASE in obtaining Christ - GAIN.

I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ (See Phil. 3:8)

This gaining of Christ involved him stretching forward to experience more and more of Christ - thus Christ would be gained.

Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before, (Phil 3.12.13)

There is no such thing as a seed of life growing and influencing the Christian.

Sure there is.
Get your concordance out for the NT and look up all the passages about spiritual growth and the exhortation to do so.

Nothing is growing inside the Christian.

Sure there is. There should be.
He spreads, encreases. He is magnified.

The normal church life is a matter of God giving the growth of life in believers.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth.
So then neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the growth. (1 Cor. 3:6,7)

You have no case to teach Christ does not grow in the believers.
Do not dumb down the New Testament to conform to a possible situation where not much growth is taking place.
That is abnormal.

Rooted and grounded in Christ is for the growing in Christ and the being built together in Christ.
Drawing up the "nutrients" of this soil we grow in Christ and as a result are built up together in Him.

Having been rooted and being built up in Him, (Col. 2:7)

That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are (Eph. 3:17,18)

The normal church life is a matter of God growing a habitation of God in spirit - the growing is the building.

Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:20-22)

We should pray for this. We should not dumb down the New Testament to excuse lack of growth and lack of building.
Instead we should seek to be normal in this regard.
The absence of this growth is degradation in Christianity.
And we ought not rationalize such stagnation by dumbing down the promises of God.

The Christian has been given a new life that they must put on, Ephesians 4:24 KJV, walk according to by putting off the old man. This is accomplished by faith,

That is right.
This putting on is to take place throughout the life of the believers - by faith.

If God showed us all out lack in one instant we would be probably be crushed by shock.
Gradually He enlightens His seeking ones. In this and that area they now must go ON to put on the new man.

On one hand the new man was CREATED on the cross of Christ.
On the other hand the new man is a matter of the RENEWING of our old man into the expression of the new man.

that He might create the two in Himself into one new man, (Eph. 2:15b)

And have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, (Col. 3:10)

 

[ViaCrucis]

ViaCrucis says... "Faith isn't something I work in myself, but rather what God graciously gives me, works in me, creates in me, and strengthens through the Gospel."

All that is true... Except for the "...strengthens me through the gospels part..."... Faith is strengthened by our exercising the faith we have been given/received from God... The gospels don't strengthen our faith... Our reading scripture while exercising our faith is what strengthens our faith.

Gospel, not gospels. The Four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the story of Jesus, His life, death, and resurrection; thus they are the Gospel Story.

The Gospel is the Gospel, it is what is to be preached, the Good News of what God has done in Jesus--what the Four Gospels bear witness to.

Further unpacking: A central aspect of Lutheran theology and the chief Lutheran hermeneutic is the Law-Gospel Dialectic. In simplest terms, God speaks two kinds of words to us, His commandments (Law) and His promises (Gospel).

A good summation of this idea comes from Luther's 1518 Heidelberg Disputations, where he argues, "The Law says 'Do this' and it is never done, Grace [the Gospel] says 'Believe this' it is already done."

The central premise of the Heidelberg Disputations is that man is incapable by his good works to be righteous, in fact when man tries to be righteous by trying to obey God's commandments, God's Law, rather than being righteous man actually becomes worse off. The Law shows us that we are sinners, and the harder we try and be righteous by our own efforts by obeying the Law, the more sinful we actually are. Compare this to the things St. Paul says in Romans 7. Thus the Law acts as a mirror, showing us that we are sinful beyond measure.

In contrast, what the Law could not do, because of sin, namely to make us righteous before God, God Himself has done for us by sending His Son, Incarnated as a man in the womb of the Virgin Mary. So that by Christ's righteous obedience and work, by His life, His passion, His death, and His resurrection He has made perfect satisfaction to the just demands of the Law, and has accomplished this work for us already. So that even as by the one act of disobedience by Adam has rendered all men sinners, so has Christ's one righteous work made all men justified (Romans 5:18). For Christ has tasted death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9), has borne the full weight of all our sin and the death we so justly deserved, in order that we might be reckoned and regarded as the righteous of God (2 Corinthians 5:21).

That is the Gospel, what God has done for us in Christ.

This Gospel, this word of God, is powerful, it is in fact the "power of God to save all who believe" (Romans 1:16), wherein the justice of God is revealed "from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith'" (Romans 1:17). It is this very word which works, creates, gives, and strengthens faith (Romans 10:17, "So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ").

So it is this word of God, the very Gospel, which the Holy Spirit works faith into our hearts, grants us faith, entirely apart from ourselves, apart from our will, apart from our ability, apart from all of our works (Ephesians 2:8-9), it is the work and gift of God alone. Extra Nos, "From outside of ourselves".

But then we come to this scripture verse...

Matthew 17:20... "And He said to them, Because of your little faith; for truly I say to you, If you have faith like a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, Move from here to there, and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

Notice... "...Because of your little faith; for truly I say to you, If you have faith like a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain...".

This... "...your little faith...", and this "...you have faith...", and this "...you will say...".

If faith is all about "...Faith isn't something I work in myself...", how can the Lord be speaking as though we have faith?

See the Parable of the Sower, see also the man who says to the Lord, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief". See also where the Scripture says that God has given each of us (in Christ) a measure of faith. That faith can weaken, it can grow, and in fact it should grow. The Scriptures call us to abide in Christ, Jesus Himself says, "I am the True Vine and you are the branches ... abide in Me".

The New Man which we have received is to be fed, nourished, by the word of God, whereby our faith is given and strengthened by the Holy Spirit, see Colossians 2:6-7, Romans 5:2-5, 1 Peter 2:2-3

Having died to sin by our baptism and raised up to new life in Christ (Romans 6:3-4) we are called to stand firm and abide in Christ by faith. It is not about our work, our ability--but rather God's grace who strengthens us. The Holy Spirit does this, He is the Comforter, the Paraclete, who dwells in us and through Him, Christ in us, and if Christ is in us we are children of God the Father by the love and grace He has given us in His only-begotten Son, through the Holy Spirit. That we might live and abide and endure in faith--not by our own power, but the power and grace of God by the Spirit.

James 1:3... "Knowing that the proving of your faith works out endurance."

Whose faith?

"...your faith...".

But... We get this faith that is absolutely ours... From God...

Of course it is our faith, granted to us as a gift. And so we can exercise that faith, and we should. And we are called to always be at the receiving end of God's grace. That is why Christ gave to His Church the ministry and office of the Keys (Matthew 16:19, John 20:21-23), with the Commission to preach the Gospel to every living creature (Mark 16:15), proclaiming forgiveness in Christ's name (Luke 24:47), to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19); He has given us His Holy Supper whereby He gives us His true body and true blood which was broken and shed for us, for the remission of our sins (Luke 22:19-20, John 6:51, 1 Corinthians 10:16).

So here, in Word and Sacrament, is God who comes down and meets us in His grace, to love us, to declare us forgiven, justifying us through faith by His grace on Christ's account alone.

Our faith can be strengthened, and our faith can be weakened--it is strengthened by God's grace by His word; but when we ignore His word, when we deprive ourselves of God's gifts, when we dwell and inhabit our sin without repentance, without remorse, when we walk away, turn away, ignore the word, then like the Parable of the Sower, so too can the seed dry up in the hot noonday sun when it is not watered.

We daily depend on faith, God gives us this faith, day by day through His word. The Holy Spirit does this for us, as the Comforter.

2 Peter 1:1... "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:...".

Moving on...

You said... "I belong to Jesus Christ because I'm baptized. Jesus Christ baptized me and the Triune Name of God was spoken over me, and God declares that all who have been baptized have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), have been buried and died with Christ, and raised up together with Christ to new life (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-13)."

Actually, no... You belong to Jesus because He caused you to believe in[to] Him.

Your baptism was just an outward testimony of the inward reality that you were brought into when you first believed in[to] the Son.
When you first believed in[to] Christ Jesus, you were brought into His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension... But outwardly, this reality of your eternal salvation has not yet been fully manifested... Your baptism is just an aspect of your outward manifestation of the inward reality you possess as a born-again of God believer.

My baptism was the work and power of God whereby I was washed with the washing of water with the word (Ephesians 5:26), whereby I was buried with Christ, died with Christ, and raised up to new life in and with Christ (Romans 6:3-4), clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), and all other things which the Scriptures say about this precious and Holy Sacrament.

You will find no where in Scriputre that says baptism is "just an outward testimony".

Moving on...

You said... "If I looked to how I felt, if I looked inside myself to find something trustworthy and true, I would despair and be hopeless--for there is nothing of myself of worth before God, I am full of sin and death."

Which would either indicate that you have not been born-again of God... Or that you're clueless (blind) to the reality of what being born-again of God actually is.

Do you not believe/know that Christ Jesus is in you, one with you, and you, one with Him?

If you say you do believe this... Then how can you say that "...If I looked to how I felt, if I looked inside myself to find something trustworthy and true, I would despair and be hopeless--for there is nothing of myself of worth before God, I am full of sin and death."...?

"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." - Galatians 2:20

That would be you calling the Christ Jesus in you, who scripture tells us is joined to us, one with us, nothing of value to God.

Unfortunately, this is where the folly of your Calvinist religion fails you... It has only taught you a lie... Not the truth.

Moving on...

You said... "But God, who is rich in mercy, has sent Jesus Christ, who died for me. That is my assurance, and God Himself works and creates faith in me through His word that I should not despair, but trust Christ."

And yet... Here you are, both denying that you have faith, and denying that anything good is in you.

Do you not see how confused you are?

Moving on...

You continued... "It is the word of God alone, outside of myself, that gives me hope and through which the Spirit Himself works and gives me faith."

And here it seems that you don't know what the economy of God's salvation toward men is... And as a result... Must be absolutely clueless as to how you walk by faith.

Amen.

"So when the devil throws your sins in your face and declares that you deserve death and hell, tell him this: 'I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction on my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, Son of God, and where He is there I shall be also." - Martin Luther from the 2003 movie, Luther

-CryptoLutheran

 

[biblelesson]

No. To be born again is for growing again.

You said a lot. I was not implying that the Christian did not need to grow in Christ, nor work out their own salvation.

If I just respond to your post here you might understand what I was saying.

So you said, “No, to be born again is for growing again.” But, this cannot be true because to be born again is to be made a new creature. And we cannot grow into a new creature, we are made a new creature in Christ by the Holy Spirit through faith.

This overcoming and growing in Christ is as a result of being born again. We are not born again some time later in our Christian walk, nor are we born again while growing in Christ somehow to produce the born again state.

What the Bible tells us is that salvation is a finished work. But we are given everything Christ has already accomplished already through faith.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, and all of what the gospel is teaching us after we are saved is for this purpose: because the Husbandman (God) desires the precious fruit, James 5:7 KJV, which are the Fruit of the Spirit, producing in us holiness, righteousness, and conforming us to His Son, Christ Jesus.

How will the precious fruit God desires manifested in us if we are sinners?

When we believe on Christ, we are born again. We must be born again first in order to be transformed, in order to have our minds renewed, in order to work out our own salvation, in order to be able to grow in Christ in our hearts, etc. The reason is we can do none of these things ourselves, we need the power of God to do it, which the Holy Spirit who only lives in the born again believer accomplished the work.

So no one is saying we don’t grow in Christ, nor do we not put away sinful behavior. What I’m saying is our growing in Christ is by the power of the Holy Spirit guiding, directing, moving us, helping us, teaching us, conforming us, bestowing gifts upon us, giving us discernment, all to accomplish God’s plan. God Has GIVEN us power…, 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV.

Do the Christian go through trials, suffer growth pains? Yes, because we must overcome the flesh, which is the old man, which is the carnal nature, which is pride: we cannot produce the fruit God wants and demands to see in us without putting off the old man.
We can take no credit for anything relating to salvation. If and when we are able to put off our flesh, be renewed in our mind, be transformed, it’s because we have been exercised to do so by the Holy Spirit through chastening, Hebrews 12:11 KJV, Hebrews 12:7-8 KJV, through fiery trials, 1 Peter 4:12 KJV, through the furnace of affliction, Isaiah 48:10 KJV. We don’t like it, but it pleases God. We cannot produce the growth ourselves through our own efforts. Go won’t accept our works.

If we were able to grow in Christ and be conformed, transformed, and sanctified ourselves, then Christ would not have had to die to save us, because we would be saying we have the ability to save ourselves.

 

[oikonomia]

You said a lot. I was not implying that the Christian did not need to grow in Christ, nor work out their own salvation.

And I made some silly typos too. Sorry, for they may be confusing.

If I just respond to your post here you might understand what I was saying.

So you said, “No, to be born again is for growing again.” But, this cannot be true because to be born again is to be made a new creature. And we cannot grow into a new creature, we are made a new creature in Christ by the Holy Spirit through faith.

I don't see why "born again" does not imply "growing again." To be certain all the glory and thanks go to God. On the point I fully agree.
The Lord said that when His servants do all that was expected of them, they should count themselves unworthy.

So also you, when you do all the things which are ordered you, say, We are unprofitable slaves; we have done what we ought to have done. (Luke 17:10)

In no way would I discourage any believer from giving ALL the thanks and glory for their salvation in every stage, to God.

But the exhortation to grow into salvation, for example, requires something for us to do - Long for the milk of the word, for instance.
We can long for it for growth's sake. Or sadly we can be appathetic about it, neglecting this growth. This is just one example.

As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation, (1 Pet. 2:2)

Ie. So you are now a newborn babe in Christ. You've been born again.
Well, newborn babe, you can cooperate by longingly desire the milk of God's word.
Drinking this milk will cause you to grow into salvation.
in order that by it you may grow unto salvation,

Brother, I don't see anyway around realizing that this is an exhortation for ME to do something in cooperation.
And it does convey "born again" that I may "grow again."
So instead of neglect the word, I should go along with the plan and long for and drink the guileless word.

Now unfortunately I must suspend our fellowship now. Be back latter.

 

[tonychanyt]

And God can’t sin, that’s why the Bible tells us that “we cannot sin” 1 John 3:9 KJV.

See Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT sin. Really? and follow up there

 

[oikonomia]

This overcoming and growing in Christ is as a result of being born again.

I agree fully. Amen.

We are not born again some time later in our Christian walk,

I agree. The whole Christian life commences with the new birth.

nor are we born again while growing in Christ somehow to produce the born again state.

I agree. Just as while growing naturally, in the past we began this grow by first being born.
I hope you didn't get any impression I said anything contrary to this.

What the Bible tells us is that salvation is a finished work.

Since we are of three parts - spirit and soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23) ALL the verses on being saved or salvation fall
into a past salvation, an on going salvation, and a salvation awaiting in the future. If we wish to be thorough this should be seen.
I was saved.
I am being saved.
I will be saved.

I was saved from eternal perdition by being justified and regenerated in spirit.
In transformation (a life long process) I am being saved in the soul.
I await a resurrection and transfiguration of the physical for a salvation in the future of my body.

Of course all three savings are all activated by faith in Christ's finished work.

To take one example of a on going salvation of the soul, from the verse I discussed above - 1 Peter 2:2 it is about GROWTH UNTO salvation.
As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation, (1 Pet. 2:2)

Another example would be James 1:21 where the implanted word of God is able to save our souls.
receive in meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

I would include Hebrews 10:39 being about an saving in view of a future completion.
NKJV- But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
The RcV has it as "the gaining of the soul"
But we are not of those who shrink back to ruin but of those who have faith to the gaining of the soul.

Another passage about a future salvation would be about persevering unto the end in troubled times.
And because lawlessness will be multiplied, the love of the many will grow cold.
But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved. (Matt. 24:12,13)

The Christian is saved from eternal perdition. He SHALL be saved in another sense through endurance in Christ.

I believe a similar concept exists for Christian women who endure through the difficulties of child reading. She will be saved.
But she will be saved through her childbearing, if they remain in faith and love and holiness with sobriety. (1 Tim. 2:15)

The Philippians Christians are surely justified and saved from eternal perdition. Yet they are told concerning their souls, to co-operate with the operating indwelling God to work out their salvation.
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; (Phil 2:13)

These NT verses an others put salvation in terms of either ongoing saving or with a view to future saving.
We should not fall into the error of making such passages fight against one another.
Rather we take them all in their context of a complete view.

God desires to sanctify us wholly in all three parts - spirit and soul and body.
And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23)

But we are given everything Christ has already accomplished already through faith.

I am all for standing on faith, that in the eyes of God ALL THREE savings are already taken place in the eyes of Him who transcends time.
I often pray this way. So that even though I am in an ongoing saving, I have faith that in His eyes it is accomplished.
The major steps of His work Paul puts in the past tense.

Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28,29)

This is faith building. Even to His view this moment we believers have BEEN GLORFIED.
On the other hand we AWAIT the redemption of our body.
even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:23)

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, and all of what the gospel is teaching us after we are saved is for this purpose: because the Husbandman (God) desires the precious fruit, James 5:7 KJV, which are the Fruit of the Spirit, producing in us holiness, righteousness, and conforming us to His Son, Christ Jesus.

This is very good.

How will the precious fruit God desires manifested in us if we are sinners?

Only by His ongoing saving work can sinners become sons of God.
Rather than be defeated we need Him to make us overcome.

By the end of the millennial period every reborn human being will have finally overcome because God is faithful.
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:7)

When we believe on Christ, we are born again.

Marvelous!

We must be born again first in order to be transformed,

Wonderful!

in order to have our minds renewed, in order to work out our own salvation, in order to be able to grow in Christ in our hearts, etc.

Yes, this is what we are saying. Am I right?

The reason is we can do none of these things ourselves, we need the power of God to do it, which the Holy Spirit who only lives in the born again believer accomplished the work.

Yes. It is God who operates both the willing and the working.
So let us heed the exhortation/s.

So no one is saying we don’t grow in Christ,

Yes. We need to grow in Christ.

nor do we not put away sinful behavior. What I’m saying is our growing in Christ is by the power of the Holy Spirit guiding, directing, moving us, helping us, teaching us, conforming us, bestowing gifts upon us, giving us discernment, all to accomplish God’s plan. God Has GIVEN us power…, 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV.

Amen. That's what I am saying with you.

Do the Christian go through trials, suffer growth pains? Yes, because we must overcome the flesh, which is the old man, which is the carnal nature, which is pride: we cannot produce the fruit God wants and demands to see in us without putting off the old man.
We can take no credit for anything relating to salvation. If and when we are able to put off our flesh, be renewed in our mind, be transformed, it’s because we have been exercised to do so by the Holy Spirit through chastening, Hebrews 12:11 KJV, Hebrews 12:7-8 KJV, through fiery trials, 1 Peter 4:12 KJV, through the furnace of affliction, Isaiah 48:10 KJV. We don’t like it, but it pleases God. We cannot produce the growth ourselves through our own efforts. Go won’t accept our works.

If we were able to grow in Christ and be conformed, transformed, and sanctified ourselves, then Christ would not have had to die to save us, because we would be saying we have the ability to save ourselves.

Our cooperation IS a kind of work. It is a cooperating work.
And for these works there will be reward or further discipline at the judgment seat of Christ at the beginning of the millennial time.
Are you able to receive this? "The work of each will become manifest."

But if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble,
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.

This cooperating work done by the saved believers is that which receive RECOMPENSE.
before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Cor. 5:10)

New American Standard Bible
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

So the saved should not wish to lose reward in full but be recompensed for cooperation.
Do not cast away therefore your boldness, which has great reward. (Heb. 10:35 Recovery Version)

KJV - Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

 

[biblelesson]

And I made some silly typos too. Sorry, for they may be confusing.


I don't see why "born again" does not imply "growing again." To be certain all the glory and thanks go to God. On the point I fully agree.
The Lord said that when His servants do all that was expected of them, they should count themselves unworthy.

Born again is “to be born” moving from one type of birth, to another type of birth. Growing again implied we are growing from something that already existed. But no, being born again is not growing again from an original state.

The original birth (in Adam) have been put to death on the cross. We are given a new birth (in Christ) sufficient for a spiritual body at resurrection to inherit the kingdom heaven.

You are confusing the growth through sanctification, and transformation with the one time born again event - we don’t grow from death on the cross. Nicodemus was not clear on being being born again either, John 3:1-6 KJV

Also, without being born again in Christ we would not be able to go through the sanctification process. I’ll say it another way. Being born again is the starting point of the sanctification process.

Born Again

Being born again makes us God’s children. We receive the same seed Christ Has, the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead where He is our big brother, in addition to being our lord and savior.

A seed determine children, heirs, inheritance. In the beginning God was making children to be God like Him. But because of Adam’s sin, that process was halted. This is a whole other lesson.

However to put man back in the position he lost, God had to redeemed man from his sin state that he inherited from the first man Adam (where all born are of corrupted seed); man needed to be redeemed, and this redemption had to come through the last Adam (through Jesus Christ we receive an incorruptible seed), Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ’s God Seed / Man’s God Seed - Born of God through the Holy Spirit

Man in Christ posses the same God seed Christ posses. The seed is the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was the only man born on earth that did not possess Adam’s seed. He possess God’s seed - born of God. Thereby being the only sacrifice for man being God and Man.

JESUS

Luke 1:35 KJV, “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

Matthew 1:18 KJV, Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:20 KJV, “But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”

MAN

1 Corinthians 6:19 KJV, “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

1 John 3:9 KJV, “Whosoever is born of God…for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Ephesians 4:30 KJV, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

1 Corinthians 6:14 KJV, “And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.”

In order for the believer to be raised to everlasting life, the believer must be born again (which makes them children of God, and Christ’s sisters and brothers) with the same Spirit of Christ dwelling in them, which is the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:11 KJV

We become born again after we believe on Christ; where we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, God’s Seed, as children, and as heirs to the kingdom.

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” (the point of being born again) “Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

A child who is born of a father, does nothing to receive life.

We all were born “one time” into Adam, and were made corruptible.

However God took us out of Adam and put us in Christ who is the first born of many brethren, who are those born again as children of God, and made us incorruptible, through the Father’s incorruptible seed, the Holy Spirit.

 

[tonychanyt]

Jesus was the only man born on earth that did not possess Adam’s seed.

What is Adam's seed?

 

[biblelesson]

What is Adam's seed?

Adam’s seed is the male seed which fertilizes the woman’s eggs to produce an embryo. This male seed became corrupted due to the fall.

All men came from Adam, with this corrupted seed except for Jesus.

 

[oikonomia]

Born again is “to be born” moving from one type of birth, to another type of birth. Growing again implied we are growing from something that already existed. But no, being born again is not growing again from an original state.

I used a play on words "born again" leads to "growing again". I certainly did not mean what problem you discribe implied.
I am not like puzzled Nicodemus pressing the Lord Jesus about how he could be an old man reborn.
Or some other logical problem as you address. I am surprised you object to the word play. Peter said believers could be as "newborn babes".
Peter said drinking the milk of the word was in order that the newborn babes might grow unto salvation.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: (2 Pet.2:2)

If you're willing, just think of the word play "born again" leads to "growing again" to mean no more than that.

The original birth (in Adam) have been put to death on the cross. We are given a new birth (in Christ) sufficient for a spiritual body at resurrection to inherit the kingdom heaven.

The three warnings that I told you about specifically address born again Christians telling them this:
If you remain in a defeated lifestyle under some of sins "things like these" or "such things" you will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:17-21; Eph. 5:3-5).

Since the audience is composed of people for whom the problem of eternal life has been solved in the affirmative, we should understand Paul to be warning - WHILE Christians remain in these defeated conditions, even after resurrection, the possiblity is that they are not in a suitable condition to inherit the kingdom of God.

In other words - You may procrastinate your subjective transformation. But you cannot indefinitely halt it. It will come before you inherit this kingdom of God.

This has to be the proper understanding if he is speaking to Christian church people (ie. the church in Corinth, the churches in Galatia, the church in Ephesus respectfully.) While we are not given many details, the warnings (to born again people) is clear.
The warning of missing inheriting the kingdom of God is followed by such phrases as:

Do not be led astray. (1 Cor. 6:9)
Let no one deceive you with vain words (Eph. 5:6)
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked (Gal. 6:7)

Whatever a man sows, this he will also reap (Gal. 6:7) is a warning we cannot restrict to the lost unbeliever who was never reborn.
If you read carefully these passages you should understand that though Paul gives not lots of details, he does warn the born again.

Before I knew these passages, as a younger Christian, I did harbor a hope that I could continue some sins.
Like many evangelical Christians I had the assurance of eternal redemption and eternal life.
But in my conscience I KNEW "God cannot be that stupid. There must be some consequences if I continue to be a Christian who clings to
these sinful things I do. It simply doesn't feel right that I have His hands tied that I can continue unsanctified.

Eventually, reading more thoroughly I noticed:
Do not be led astray. (1 Cor. 6:9)
Let no one deceive you with vain words (Eph. 5:6)
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked (Gal. 6:7)
And many, many other exhortations TO the born again.

Even the comfortiing assurance in 1 Cor. 6:11 - "But these things were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" is given as a rational WHY they should avoid being defeated by the "these things". Ie. "Stand on the fact in faith brothers. Jesus has saved you that you might overcome such errors."

The Thessalonian churching saints were young born again Christians. Paul taught that they should avail themselves of grace that they may be accounted WORTHY of the kingdom of God.
A plain indication of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be accounted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which also you suffer; (2 Thess 1:5)

Ie. So live that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God as opposed to unworthy.

Likewise Peter encourages that a richly and bountifully supplied entrance into this kingdom God is supplying. So take advantage of it O Christian.
Therefore, brothers, be the more diligent to make your calling and selection firm, for doing these things you shall by no means ever stumble.
For in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly and bountifully supplied to you. (2 Pet. 1:10,11)

 

[oikonomia]

On God's side the entrance is richly supplied. Therefore cooperate to go through the entrance.

You are confusing the growth through sanctification, and transformation with the one time born again event

No, I am not. The believers may postpone sanctification subjectively. But they cannot do so forever.
The Christian may procrastinate transformation. But before the age of the new heaven and new earth, he WILL BE transformed and sanctified.
If he goes along with this grace in a timely manner he will receive a reward.
If he does not go along, he will suffer loss during the millennial kingdom. Yet he will still be saved yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

I would hasten to add that the merciful shall obtain mercy. And I would hasten to add that as we judge others we too will be judged.
And I would hasten to also add that to whom much was given much will be expected. And God takes into account what one knows and what one was unaware of.

So I do not find such passages like (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:17-21; Eph. 5:3-5) to cause dispair. For we all usually feel short before the Lord.
But while not causing dispair they do cause me to be sober. And we who become more aware of these things should seize the time wisely.

Look therefore carefully how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise,
Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph. 5:15-17)

Also, without being born again in Christ we would not be able to go through the sanctification process.

That is right. Nothing I wrote implies otherwise.
Do not attempt to portray me as teaching that non-believers can without the new birth be made holy.

I’ll say it another way. Being born again is the starting point of the sanctification process.

That is right. You misunderstand me if you think I am teaching sanctification can be achieved by the unregenerated unbeliever.

Born Again

Being born again makes us God’s children. We receive the same seed Christ Has, the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead where He is our big brother, in addition to being our lord and savior.

That's right.
Now Paul sought a better resurrection. Or he had an ambition to attain to an outstanding resurrection.

To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. (Phil. 3:10,11)

Now we might ask Paul why he is concerned about attaining what he surely already is promised.
Ie. "Paul, you know good and well that as a born again Christian you will be resurrected."

He was talking about an extra honorable resurrection, a resurrection with some distinction.
He implies a common kind of resurrection and an uncommon outstanding resurrection.
The latter is his ambition to attain. He does not have the attitude that he has ALREADY attained to it.

Philippians 3:12-14 -
Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before, I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward.

 

[oikonomia]

In brief all this means that the Apostle Paul lived and so as if the born again man (promised eternal redemption and eternal life) ought to
pursue a resurrection which is outstanding through a full sanctification. This has to be compared with not just graduating from school but doing so with honors and distinction.

Please do not scoff at the thought. When Stephen the first martyred Christian was being stoned to death for the name of Christ, Christ STOOD UP to show honor for Stephen's sacrifice.

But being full of the Holy Spirit, he looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
And he said, Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. (Acts 7:55,56)

Now both Stephen and the Christian living with his mother-in-law in Corinth are both expected to be resurrected.
But Paul warned that the latter was in danger of discipline though he would be saved.
For I, on my part, though being absent in the body but present in the spirit, have already judged, as if being present, him who has thus done this, In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you and my spirit have been assembled, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. (1 Cor. 5:3-5)

Now this brother was forgiven by the church and by Paul.
But we should expect that the resurrection and reward for Stephen would be with more distinction than the resurrection of this fleshly
brother should he not be sanctified.

Mind you that just individual spirituality was not the question. God's purpose in building His church was the issue.
For Paul follows his sad warning about the sinning born again Corinthian brother -

Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
Purge out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened; for our Passover, Christ, also has been sacrificed. (vs.6,7)

So the more we can see that our salvation - rebirth, sanctification, transformation, resurrection, etc. are for God's purpose for the church
rather than just individual good fortune, the more such passages make sense to Christians.

Concerning the defeated fleshy brother churching along with the Corinthians, Paul says such a one needs to be quarintined that he might have a sense of needing to be changed by the Lord.

I wrote to you in my letter not to mingle with fornicators, But not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and rapacious, or idolaters, since then you would have to go out of the world.
But now I have written to you not to mingle with anyone who is called a brother, if he is a fornicator or a covetous man or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or a rapacious man, with such a one not even to eat.

 

[oikonomia]

So for the normal church life this brother needs to take sanctification more seriously.
And for the reward of the coming millennial kingdom he needs to be aware he could suffer loss, not receive reward, and be disciplined.

The happy part in this case was that that brother apparently woke up and stopped taking the Lord's salvation as "cheap grace."
(Second Corintians 2:6-8) Sufficient for such a one is this punishment by the majority,
So that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with excessive sorrow.
Therefore I exhort you to confirm your love toward him.

Praise the Lord this defeated backslider got recovered.
And Paul says that he and his co-workers seek to present everyman mature.

For we [ including the born again Paul ] must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.
Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; yet I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. (2 Cor. 5:10,11)

All your references below this were appreciated. They do not however negate that the BORN AGAIN believers for which eternal redemption and eternal life are secured needs growth spiritually. Paul labored to present them mature in this new life. Full-grown surely means GROWTH. So born again for the purpose of growing again stands.

See Colossians 1:27-29 -
. . . which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ;
For which also I labor, struggling according to His operation which operates in me in power.