Where is it all going? Any RADICAL ideas?

[salamacum]

As part of my apparent 'maturity' in the Christian faith I have actually been thinking the unthinkable.
I suppose as we all have to live cheek-by-jowl in our multi-faith society we have to think about God's purposes with other faiths and even with secular movements.

Is it all coming to some big apocalyptic 'sorting out' of the good from the bad, the right from the wrong, the true doctrine from the heresy, moral behaviour from the immoral, the obediant versus the rebellious.......

OR, is Islam for example like Judaism a reflection of one crucial aspect of God's character and purpose?

Is it possible that these other religions are indeed part of God's purpose in a constructive sense not just so that the 'righteous' have an evil yardstick to be judged separate from.

After Christian ethical behaviour DOES change in dialectic with secular beliefs.

I've even been considering whether Islam is God's political movement to bring in the authoritarian structures needed for the millenium when Jesus will return to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

If Gods truly IS in control just why DID he allow Islam with its history of antagonism to His gift of grace and its destruction of Christian lands?

What of buddhism? Do we just dismiss it as a worship of demons? Or is their internal spiritual discipline and empathy with living creatures an unpaid bill of the church, like communism.

I suppose we need to ask ourselves whether the bible in providing true information about the last days in fact does not provide us with anything like a comprehensive vision of God's final purposes on this earth.

That gives US as spirit-filled and made in God's image the obligation to think the previously unthinkable.

 

[OneOfTheMany]

All I can say is that God is much larger than any dialogue we could strike up, and most of all He wants us to learn.

God wants us to be understanding people.

The tides of history that have brought the strange wave of Islam across the world must be studied in detail if we are to make any claims about why things happened or where things are going.

It is great that you are thinking about these things. I would encourage you to keep following this path. Keep asking the questions that no one seems to be answering, and then write your own answers. My only advise is do the research and don't rely too strongly on blanket statements that spring up from the ground.

 

[youngjoshuatree]

in the minor prophet zephaniah god said he would remove all the idols and the wicked people. allah was once a idol in the kabba along with a hundred others

 

[salamacum]

If it's all light and darkness then obviously all we have to do is make sure that we are on the right side.
Don't suppose we have to think about whether God has a purpose for those we could consider his enemies.
You know, a bit like the pharisees despised Samaritans and more disastrously Galileans and anybody from Nazareth.

 

[OneOfTheMany]

You should try and organize your thoughts so others can better understand you.


Open ended questions can be a lot of fun, but some of your statements seem to lack a crux that would invite actual discussion.

 

[salamacum]

That's just it.
I don't want to focus or direct.

But in the confusing times in which we live is anybody thinking things that they would have considered out of bounds say a generation ago?
Anybody thinking things their denomination or church is not ready for?

 

[OneOfTheMany]

I agree with you, and questions that are not properly answered never go away. My only point was to try and organize your thoughts a bit more so others could better understand you, not to modify your ideas.

 

[tucker58]

As part of my apparent 'maturity' in the Christian faith I have actually been thinking the unthinkable.
I suppose as we all have to live cheek-by-jowl in our multi-faith society we have to think about God's purposes with other faiths and even with secular movements.

Is it all coming to some big apocalyptic 'sorting out' of the good from the bad, the right from the wrong, the true doctrine from the heresy, moral behaviour from the immoral, the obediant versus the rebellious.......

OR, is Islam for example like Judaism a reflection of one crucial aspect of God's character and purpose?

Is it possible that these other religions are indeed part of God's purpose in a constructive sense not just so that the 'righteous' have an evil yardstick to be judged separate from.

After Christian ethical behaviour DOES change in dialectic with secular beliefs.

I've even been considering whether Islam is God's political movement to bring in the authoritarian structures needed for the millenium when Jesus will return to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

If Gods truly IS in control just why DID he allow Islam with its history of antagonism to His gift of grace and its destruction of Christian lands?

What of buddhism? Do we just dismiss it as a worship of demons? Or is their internal spiritual discipline and empathy with living creatures an unpaid bill of the church, like communism.

I suppose we need to ask ourselves whether the bible in providing true information about the last days in fact does not provide us with anything like a comprehensive vision of God's final purposes on this earth.

That gives US as spirit-filled and made in God's image the obligation to think the previously unthinkable.

Any radical ideas is an interesting concept. Every time some body comes up with a new idea we have a whole new Christian sect in competition with all of the rest of Christianity and the other world religions. I suppose radical would be a world religion that is founded on the words of Jesus Christ. And I suspect that it would be pretty different than what we generally consider today's Christianity .

The only country in today's world that might be able to pull it off would be the Chinese. They have the mind for group effort and Jesus' message was generally one of love, helping others, and being non political. If I was to have a ministry in China the Chinese government would love "their" Christians because they would be the perfect citizens. "The meek shall inherit the earth."

So Salamacum how is that for radical?

just love,

tuck

 

[Alive_Again]

<I suppose as we all have to live cheek-by-jowl in our multi-faith society we have to think about God's purposes with other faiths and even with secular movements.

We can reduce "other faiths" and "secular movements" to those who are need Christ. They are without hope and without God in this world. We treat them the way the church always has, with compassion and love. We don't agree with them in any way, and the spirit of the world is what they are ruled by.

<OR, is Islam for example like Judaism a reflection of one crucial aspect of God's character and purpose?

Islam is an antichrist religion that has murdered Jews and Christians for a long time. Their scriptures look to a day when they will kill Jews and Christians as part of a judgment by allah. They believe in another Jesus, that didn't actually resurrect from the dead. They believe another went to Heaven instead, possibly Judas. (!)

<Is it possible that these other religions are indeed part of God's purpose in a constructive sense not just so that the 'righteous' have an evil yardstick to be judged separate from.

Other nations were used to judge Israel in the O.T. They were not saved though. Those who aren't in covenant with God perish. It's the same way today under the new covenant.

<After Christian ethical behaviour DOES change in dialectic with secular beliefs.

The church is not to be modeled after the world. If the world has crept into "the church", it is those who aren't adhering to the head. They won't be ready at His coming.

<I've even been considering whether Islam is God's political movement to bring in the authoritarian structures needed for the millenium when Jesus will return to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

All those who walk in darkness will be judged. Demon antichrist spirits rule Islam. I don't say this to offend Muslim, but they must understand, according to God's Word, there is no alternative way to be saved. Those who preach that there is, are influenced by antichrist (instead of Christ) spirits.

<If Gods truly IS in control just why DID he allow Islam with its history of antagonism to His gift of grace and its destruction of Christian lands?

Whenever God's people stepped out of His will, He allowed the nations of the earth to afflict them. They are eventually judged. We know Muslims to be descendants of Ismael, wild asses of men who are thorns in the sides of God's covenant people.

<What of buddhism? Do we just dismiss it as a worship of demons? Or is their internal spiritual discipline and empathy with living creatures an unpaid bill of the church, like communism.

Any other name offering some kind of salvation is antichrist and demonically influenced. It doesn't matter what flavor you choose, everything that isn't of the light is of darkness.

<I suppose we need to ask ourselves whether the bible in providing true information about the last days in fact does not provide us with anything like a comprehensive vision of God's final purposes on this earth.

It's all there. It indicates that a world structure with the beast, false prophet, and a harlot will come about. The image of the beast will come alive and force people to worship it or be tortured and beheaded. It's very likely in our lifetime. Since the return of Christ in Revelation is after the sixth angel, (before the wrath of judgment), those alive will see this come about.

 

[canukian]

god knows the end from the begining is the shortest and most exact answer.

 

[randomhit10]

i think it is all about choice....we are given all the information we need to make a sound decision....there is also one who litters our path with traps....

God only wants those who want to be with Him...it is up to us to work out our own salvation....and there is no way around a great sorting out....

 

[Alive_Again]

"The Word" said...
The first thing to understand is to know that only God's chosen ones will be called by him. Here are some scriptures to point out these chosen ones.

So much for "Many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14

I'm often surprised at some of the responses people post to the Forum that seem to reflect "one side of the coin" regarding scripture and salvation. Rather than being negatively critical I would hope that others would consider a more "responsible perspective" regarding our part in the plan of God that includes our part. You could argue that God knows who will be saved from eternity. He knows everything. We do not. Once could be inclined to adopt an attitude that we're covered and going to Heaven no matter what! Clearly the scriptures contradict that. The words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John, as well as the prophets speaking the Words of the Father warn the covenant people of God against wickedness and exhorts them to be obedient in all things. The entire Word of God speaks of consequences against sin which we're reminded in the New Covenant to be aware of.

For all of those who have responded to His call, (the chosen), there is a conforming process each believer is destined to take into the image of Christ that will enable us to bear fruit of the kingdom. One might think from the scriptures below, that that settles the matter. It requires our participation which we can back out of at any time.

...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Ephesians 1
...He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will...Ephesians 1
...For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son Romans 9
...And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; Romans 9
...because God chose you from the beginning to be saved II Thesalonians 2:13
...You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you ... John 15

Yet, those same "chosen" were warned...

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
2 Thess 1:8

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
1 Peter 4:17-18

You are called to obey God by doing His commandments (by walking in love).

Nobody knows who the chosen ones are while we live in the flesh and since God knows who his chosen ones are, he'll make sure that they hear his voice through the gospel or the spoken word directly within them. All us chosen ones will be called. We don't have to search for any truth like religious people do.

Those who are born into the kingdom are referred to as "the chosen". It's not an elite within the elite. ALL believers will have to incline their spiritual ear and do the Word of God in their spirits. God draws His people to seek His will. It's up to them to respond. There's no backstage pass or VIP section in the kingdom. There's no respector of persons with God. The call is to "whosoever will". Since you're drawn by God Himself, you are only answering the call and enter into the chosen who make the choice to enter into His covenant. Although He does the drawing, the choice is always yours. It always will be too. A covenant is a multi-party agreement (2 in this case). You're required to keep it, since it's on His terms.

After God reveals himself and gives the chosen one faith, then he will began to command the chosen one to confess his sins and be justified so he can be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Faith comes by hearing the Spirit Word of God. Once again, they will have to incline their ear to the Word, and then fight the good fight of faith. You have to keep your eye single on the throne and obedient. You'll have to watch yourh heart. When you sin, repent and confess.

...The pain comes when he's forgiving us and that's when he changes the genetic traits in our DNA to stop the power to make us sin again.

He is conforming us to yield to Him in our Spirits, which affects us souls. We're not becoming more like Him. We're able to yield to Him more. When we walk in our flesh, we're not at all like Him. We beat the corruption in the world through lust by putting faith in His promises. We hear the promises and have faith when we hear and do His will.

The fear of the Lord begins at the time God reveals himself to the chosen one who has been listening to the truth from the gospel. When God starts to give commands to confess and repent of sins, it is a fearful time because it's very humiliating and painful.

I believe we fear the Lord because He is both good and severe. Our flesh does not want to follow after God, so because we're answerable to Him, we reverence His commandments.

 

[Alive_Again]

"The Word" said...
Nowhere in the scriptures will you find that the prophets, Jesus and us saints had a choice to make. We were predestined from before creation so any of you Christians that believe you had to make a choice for Jesus are badly mistaken.

This is heresy. God has called and chosen all of us. We are also called to hear and obey the gospel.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:9

You have to chose to not walk in the flesh. The only way to do that is to walk in the Spirit and obey the gospel and fulfill the royal law of love.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:16-18

If you don't walk in the Spirit... guess what? You're under the Law, because you can't keep the righteous requirements of the Law in the flesh. Your fruit will be worthy of being judged by the Law because the Law was given because of sins. The Law is not meant for a righteous man. Those who walk in the flesh are not righteous.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He is thy life, and the length of thy days:
Deut 30:19-20

You were destined to be religious people like the religious Jews who rejected the gospel Jesus preached. An alcoholic was destined to be an alcoholic. A gay man was destined to love other men. We were created and formed in a sinful flesh that lived according to God's plans.

We can choose to be like them, or we can be those of a good heart bear fruit of the kingdom. It's a choice. The alcoholic chooses to drink. The same for the gay. He will hold them accountable for their choices. The good news is that they can turn to Jesus and be set free!

He knew man would sin, but it wasn't His plan. It was His plan that Jesus would provide the ransom for our sins. If you believe that it was His will for us to sin, He could not hold us accountable for them. In His plan, He has set up blessing and cursing. The sins of the forefathers are visited on the children. Gay people and alcoholics usually have that in their blood line. It's not God's will for them to be gay. It is His will for their descendants to be afflicted until they repent. Jesus was made a curse for us so we could be set free from the curses obtained by "virtue" of our forefathers.

&#8220;Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?&#8221;
Ezek 33:11

 

[Alive_Again]

None of these scriptures say anything about a chosen one of God's who has to make a decision.

The people of God, who have responded to His call, drawn to Him by Himself, have are now called by His name are the chosen of God. In the New Covenant, we are called to love. We (you included) will be held accountable for your obedience. You have 2 natures. Your inward nature delights in the Law of God, which is written in your heart. Your flesh is contrary to the Law of God. If you "CHOOSE" to walk in it, you'll reap death. If you CHOOSE to walk in your renewed spirit, in union with the Spirit of God, you'll reap life. If you believe God will choose for you, you misunderstand the nature of free will. God loves you and will never violate your free will. If you believe and CHOOSE His way, you'll be receive the gift of eternal life, and will be rewarded for your corresponding good fruits.

God is not mocked. You must CHOOSE to sow to life and not death. You will reap what you sow.

We know we are chosen because we are led by the spirit at all times. We never make a decision when we're being commanded by God and led to do whatever it is he wants us to do.

The chosen of God will always be led of the Spirit. That is the nature of the covenant. You must always choose to obey. There were many instances of the chosen of God getting into sin. They were instructed to repent. When you don't walk in the Spirit, you must repent.

When you use the scriptures to justify your sins, then you're not of God. You severely took these scriptures out of context as a sinner usually does and lied to me with them. You have no idea what the truth is.

I do not justify sin. In fact, my message is walking in the light and repenting when you sin. Your message is that you're always do what God wants. This is heresy. Every example in the New Testament is provided to show that you have a choice and that God will not violate it.

As I had said previously...

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:9

You severely took these scriptures out of context as a sinner usually does and lied to me with them.

You cannot discern the truth from a lie. Which scripture is taken out of context?

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20

You're a sinner who's looking for ways to justify your sins.

It would be foolish of me to think that I know everything about the plan of God, or have a full understanding of the Word. I do understand that all of us must choose. You twist the scripture unskillfully. The enemy does better than this, so I'm guessing you're a baby Christian getting into trouble. It's a rare day that I would speak this way to a Christian, but you're excusing sin and calling me a sinner because I contradict your pet doctrine with the Word. I forgive you, but you cannot call me a sinner for giving you the Word. The judgment you render will be your own.

Know for a certainty that you must choose, God won't do it for you, and the Word doesn't say you don't have to. Don't be deceived. God will stand behind your right to go to Hell if you choose.

 

[salamacum]

<< I'm often surprised at some of the responses people post to the Forum that seem to reflect "one side of the coin" regarding scripture and salvation. Rather than being negatively critical I would hope that others would consider a more "responsible perspective" regarding our part in the plan of God that includes our part. > >

So am I - I thought this was the moderate Christian / bridge builder board.

 

[salamacum]

< < You have 2 natures. Your inward nature delights in the Law of God, which is written in your heart. Your flesh is contrary to the Law of God. If you "CHOOSE" to walk in it, you'll reap death. > >

So even as a signed up believer, some / many will reap death? Spiritual death?

But there isn't a single person that has not gone into eternity with the flesh 'pull' put to death completely. In fact Paul looked to his final physical death to finally deliver him from the body of death which made even him do what his spirit (and will) knew was carnal.

I would say that each of us is reaping death and reaping life all the way to the final shuffling off of our physical bodies. But how much we cooperate with the Holy Spirit in reaping life will determine our judgement of works but not the judgement of salvation.

If that is not the case then Christ's one and for all sacrifice is NO MORE effective than that yearly spilling of the blood of oxen that the High Priest undertook on our behalf.
It will end up as a salvation of works.

 

[Alive_Again]

So even as a signed up believer, some / many will reap death? Spiritual death?

...But how much we cooperate with the Holy Spirit in reaping life will determine our judgement of works but not the judgement of salvation.

If that is not the case then Christ's one and for all sacrifice is NO MORE effective than that yearly spilling of the blood of oxen that the High Priest undertook on our behalf.
It will end up as a salvation of works.

If you do the works of the Lord it will be completely by grace. You cannot fulfill the Word or the will of God in your flesh. Your fruit will be evident. Will you bear fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, etc? Or, will it be deception, idolatry/covetousness, immorality, being of the world?

If you are "busy" doing what are the works of God, but not His plan for your life, you'll have wood, hay, and stubble. Yes, you'll be saved, but your works won't survive.

If your "busy" bearing the fruit/yielding of/to the devil as a father, then you'll have the bad fruit and will find your lot cast with the hypocrites and unbelievers.

You are given the ability to live above sin by yielding to the Spirit of God. We'll have our tribulations and struggles until we come to full maturity.

As far as being moderate, "The Word" who thought he was the last saint on earth (according to his first post), preached absolute heresy and it was necessary to speak against the elitist doctrine he preached. He appears to be gone from the Forum. (Pray for him.)

 

[salamacum]

Can I try again?

We will all (every single one of us) go into eternity as a mixed bag. In my 35 years as a Christian as people have unwillingly allowed me to understand what makes them tick, all those fellow believers have gained victories in say love, joy and peace but have still remained practioners of immorality, covetousness even deception.

That last one is especially real and continuous. Some would call it acting in faith. I'm believing God for....I see it as believing what isn't there.
I suppose the key to this may be "what we are busy about...." (not directly scriptural is it, though)

 

[Alive_Again]

...but have still remained practioners of immorality, covetousness even deception. That last one is especially real and continuous. Some would call it acting in faith. I'm believing God for....I see it as believing what isn't there.
I suppose the key to this may be "what we are busy about...." (not directly scriptural is it, though)

The key to understanding faith is hearing the Spirit Word of God. That's what left in your heart after you do, if you have the readiness to obey. If someone says, "I'm believing God for..." Did they hear God?
When I say "hear", I mean primarily -- impressions on your spirit by His Spirit.

God also says to take Him at His Word. If His Word says one thing about the believer, it is up to you to lay hold on that promise (after you've received the revelation in your heart). God might have told you a year ago, but today, in the mist of your opposing winds and rain, "I'm believing God..." That's pretty presumptuous isn't it? No!

As far as being covetous or deceptive, what you're believing God for, is it for His glory and His will or your lusts. It is not for us to judge another's heart condition, unless judgment is given by God. The deception sometimes is laying a fleshly judgment about something the enemy says and applying it to a believer. We have to be very careful not to judge after the flesh. We become victims of the same judgment.

 

[SpecialAssistantLiaison]

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