Where is a "6000 year old earth" found in scripture?

yeshuasavedme · Mar 9, 2016

greenguzzi said:
...

The creation story in Genesis is mythological and polemic. ....

Methinks you have a big problem with God.
Are you a disciple of Hugh Ross? You seem to be, for he denies the Word under guise of "science" which is the biblical "...so called".

miamited · Mar 9, 2016

Hi again,

You responded to my hypothetical with:

greenguzzi said:
Of course, and I know where you are going, and I've already shown my hand on this. But let's see where this leads anyway.

Yes, I'm sure that you do, but have you honestly considered the similarities to what all known scientific evidence would have told us was the truth about Adam's existence and age on day two of his life with what all known scientific evidence tells us about the age of creation. Any scientist would have told us on day two of Adam's life that he 'appeared' to be about 20-30 years old. That he had passed through the birth and weaning years with his parents and grew into quite a healthy young man.

We, similarly, think to imagine that we can date the earth and the universe based on our great scientific knowledge and understanding. We measure and prod and poke and study and create great theories and 'truths' that lead us into direct contradiction to what God has told us, but because we think of ourselves as so much wiser than we really are and trust men and women who have given of their life's work to study these things with great doctoral degrees in their fields, we believe the lie rather than the truth. This is the exact same thing that Satan did and that Eve did. They believed of themselves to be wiser than God. That the real truth was gained through the exhaustive studies of men rather than the trust of God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

yeshuasavedme · Mar 9, 2016

Hi there Ted,

Did you know that Jonathan Gray showed how God used His true science to stand the waters in a heap/ice, by the wind that He sent to blow all night?
Gray has some videos online where he talks about this abd he also writes it in one of his books, in which he tells us about locals to that area who will put out water to freeze to ice when a wind is howling through a pass and makes the water ice, even though the climate is a hot one.

Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
Exo 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
Psa 78:13 He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.
Psa 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.

miamited said:
]Hi greenguzzi,

Well, just so we each understand each other and the authority and truth of the Scriptures...

You wrote:

This is, of course, the battle cry of old earth creationism and evolutionary theorists. If what we see in the reality of the physical realm doesn't match with what God's word seems to be telling us, then our understanding of God's word is flawed. However, in speaking specifically of the creation, Paul warned the believers in Colossi not to be deceived by knowledge that is founded on the natural properties of things.

My best example of this, apart from the creation account, is the crossing of the sea by the Hebrews coming out of Egypt. We are told in the Scriptures that as the Hebrews passed over the dry seabed that there was a wall of water on both their right hand and on their left hand. However, our tried and true and well tested observation of reality is that water will not stand up like a wall without some aid such as a glass container or fish tank or cliff face. Our observation of reality tells us that water will always seek to level itself unless something holds it from that natural property. It's an understanding that has been tested and proven hundreds of thousands if not several million times.

So, what's your understanding of the crossing of the Hebrews over the dry seabed with a wall of water on both their left hand and their right hand?

And, of course, that's only one example where we see that when God works all our knowledge of what can and can't be done based on the natural properties of things is worthless. How do you understand the sun standing still in the sky over Israel for nearly a full day or the shadow of the sun going backwards? How do you understand that an ass (the animal kind) can speak? What is your understanding of these events that seem quite clearly laid out for us in the Scriptures. If the sun going backwards or standing still is in conflict with our observations of reality, are all those who believe that God did actually cause such things to happen, not properly interpreting the Scriptures?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

yeshuasavedme · Mar 9, 2016

miamited said:
Hi again,

You responded to my hypothetical with:

Yes, I'm sure that you do, but have you honestly considered the similarities to what all known scientific evidence would have told us was the truth about Adam's existence and age on day two of his life with what all known scientific evidence tells us about the age of creation. Any scientist would have told us on day two of Adam's life that he 'appeared' to be about 20-30 years old. That he had passed through the birth and weaning years with his parents and grew into quite a healthy young man.

We, similarly, think to imagine that we can date the earth and the universe based on our great scientific knowledge and understanding. We measure and prod and poke and study and create great theories and 'truths' that lead us into direct contradiction to what God has told us, but because we think of ourselves as so much wiser than we really are and trust men and women who have given of their life's work to study these things with great doctoral degrees in their fields, we believe the lie rather than the truth. This is the exact same thing that Satan did and that Eve did. They believed of themselves to be wiser than God. That the real truth was gained through the exhaustive studies of men rather than the trust of God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I agree with your post except that Satan is never called a holy angel or a fallen angel in the Word of God, rather, he is the chief of a host of created evil angels in heaven, who were created to do what they do, and they serve God in doing it [the angel of destruction is a satan, who is the angel of death; the evil spirit, Abaddon/Apollyn/Destruction, who is in charge of Sheol below is an evil angel, and corruption which is legally in the flesh of every Adam person who comes into their Adam being is an evil angel, in fact -a host of them, as is listed in the Word, but they cannot curse without legal cause, and God is the One who gives them legal authority to curse, since Genesis 3:15 -but in this present creation only. After the seventh millennium, they will be confined to the borders of the Lake of Fire where they are the tormenters of their prey, forever.

Their final reward for serving God will be their delight to torment forever those who believed their lies and promoted their lies, as their disciples

yeshuasavedme · Mar 9, 2016

Riberra said:
I think i begin to see what you are talking about: is the image below fit the Bible description about the stretching of the heavens ?

No.

miamited · Mar 9, 2016

yeshuasavedme said:
Hi there Ted,

Did you know that Jonathan Gray showed how God used His true science to stand the waters in a heap/ice, by the wind that He sent to blow all night?
Gray has some videos online where he talks about this abd he also writes it in one of his books, in which he tells us about locals to that area who will put out water to freeze to ice when a wind is howling through a pass and makes the water ice, even though the climate is a hot one.

Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
Exo 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
Psa 78:13 He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.
Psa 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.

Hi YSM,

Good to hear from you and thank you for the likes. The Scriptures say 'water'. Yes, we are told that a great wind blew all night against the water, but there is a problem when we try to say that it was the wind that kept the water in place as the Israelites passed through. The major problem is that any wind powerful enough to do such a thing would preclude anyone from just walking through it. I lived where the eye of hurricane Andrew came on shore in south Miami Dade county in 1992. It was one of the most powerful hurricanes to date and Biscayne Bay, which it crossed to get to landfall isn't very deep. It's pretty much 20' or less througout. Yet, as the storm approached land there wasn't any trough of water beneath its footprint. Yes, the entire scope of the hurricane did cause significantly rising tides, but nothing that would be considered a passable walkway. Neither was there any such passable walkway behind it from the rising tides before it. No one could have walked with animals and household goods strapped on them through such an event even as it changed the depth of the water as it passed.

So, a wind that would have held the water in its place as a wall on both their right hand and on their left would have made it impossible for people to traverse through the trough of water. That there was some major ice build up, to me, is just completely untenable. I have problems when 'christians' even with good intentions try to explain some miracle of God with some naturalistic explanation of how such a thing could have happened. My understanding of God and how He works miracles is that He just says or commands that a thing happen and it does. Outside of the scope or understanding of any natural property that we might think to imagine that God 'used' to make such an event possible to our understanding.

The star of Bethlehem is a perfect example. Many well intentioned 'christians' try to explain that this odd appearance of a star that stood over a small manger was some alignment of existing celestial bodies that we still see in the sky today, but through some quirk of nature or command of God lined up in just the right way to appear as some great star standing over a manger of about 20-30 feet in length and breadth. The nearest star to us, not counting of course the sun, is some 4.24 light years away and is actually, as we see it, three stars in very close proximity to us that appear to us at that great distance to be one star even though 'close proximity' is likely several million or billion miles apart. There is no one that can tell you what point of the earth those stars are standing over. Not within thousands of miles of the earth's surface and most assuredly not within a few feet or even a mile or two. This particular star was high enough over the earth that it could be seen in the east where the wise men had traveled from, yet close enough to pretty well pinpoint a fairly small part of the earth's surface. There is no scientifically or astronomically valid explanation for such an occurrence, yet well intentioned 'christians' try their best to offer some kind of natural explanation as to how such a thing happened.

Then, for those not able to swallow the star alignment 'theory', others try to explain how it was probably some planetary line up. However, even this use of closer heavenly bodies to explain the star doesn't hold water when we throw into the equation that the star seemed to obviously point to a fairly specific place on the earth's surface.

When God does something, all explanations that would allow that He used some fairly regular, naturally occurring phenomenon to accomplish that 'something' are merely best guesses of men whose work is to deny the true power and glory of God. If God were to say to the earth, 'Move in the universe to stand in the Helix nebula', the earth would just suddenly be there at its new place and we'd never be able to explain how it happened, but we'd surely try. We'd gather up all of our wise sages of scientific and astronomical knowledge and put forth an answer as to how such a thing happened. We live and breath with the knowledge that we can explain all things in time. For those that we can't explain today, well, it's just that we haven't found that knowledge yet. It's out there. We know it happened and there's surely some logical reason that it happened, but we just don't know yet the knowledge that will tell us how it happened.

Friend, when God works a miracle, by definition, there is no logical, natural explanation for how it happened. We can't tell how God made it pitch dark in Egypt proper but the Israelites lived for the same three days with what seems to be explained as normal daylight. We can't tell what made the water stand as a wall as the Israelites passed through other than to say that God commanded that it did, and it did! We can't even begin to think to imagine how the sun would appear to stand still in the sky or that the shadow of the sun would back up 3 full step lengths. All we can say is that God commanded such a thing to happen and it happened. He kept mankind living and breathing and experiencing fairly normal life, while holding the sun still in the sky over Israel for nearly the length of a whole day.

That's the God I know and love and am trusting with my very life.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

tatteredsoul · Mar 9, 2016

Rubiks said:
For those who believe in it, how are those years calculated according to scripture?

The earth and heaven were created in the beginning - at the same time as per Genesis 1:1. This was before the first day of creation; when darkness fell upon earth, and earth became void - and when God moved and separated the darkness from the light, then the first day of creation began.

Also, day doesn't necessarily mean one 24 hour period, or 1000 years. It can mean any unspecific period of time. The context is important, and how can there be a 24 hour day before a sun and moon were created? How, then, can we even use the "A day with the Lord is as 1000 (human) years with man = 8,760,000 24 hour days" - a measure that is based on the earth's rotation about its axis with respect to the sun? There is something else going on in the Hebrew...

yeshuasavedme · Mar 9, 2016

miamited said:
Hi YSM,

Good to hear from you and thank you for the likes. The Scriptures say 'water'. Yes, we are told that a great wind blew all night against the water, but there is a problem when we try to say that it was the wind that kept the water in place as the Israelites passed through. ...

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Welcome, Ted,

Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided
Exo 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
Psa 78:13 He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.

Psa 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
The Word said God sent a blast of wind, not a gentle thing, and it blasted through all night.
The wind blasting through that point caused the waters to divide, and to become congealed/ice, and stand as a solid wall -not a [liquid] water wall, but a congealed water [solid ice] wall....heaped up.

The climate is hot, there, but natives to the area even to this day know that blasting wind blowing through certain passes turn water to ice, and they use that to their own advantage. They put out containers of water to make ice.

God had it so timed that when the wind stopped blowing and the Israelites were all through and the Egyptians started through, the water behind the weakening ice wall crashed through....

The water congealed and standing in heaps, was an ice wall, caused by the wind blowing through the passage.

miamited · Mar 9, 2016

yeshuasavedme said:
Welcome, Ted,

Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided
Exo 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
Psa 78:13 He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.

Psa 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
The Word said God sent a blast of wind, not a gentle thing, and it blasted through all night.
The wind blasting through that point caused the waters to divide, and to become congealed/ice, and stand as a solid wall -not a [liquid] water wall, but a congealed water [solid ice] wall....heaped up.

The climate is hot, there, but natives to the area even to this day know that blasting wind blowing through certain passes turn water to ice, and they use that to their own advantage. They put out containers of water to make ice.

God had it so timed that when the wind stopped blowing and the Israelites were all through and the Egyptians started through, the water behind the weakening ice wall crashed through....

The water congealed and standing in heaps, was an ice wall, caused by the wind blowing through the passage.

Hi YSM,

Yes, I agree that God used the wind to divide the sea, but as mentioned, keeping it divided for the duration of time that it took for the Israelites to pass through, while a seemingly stronger than hurricane force wind blew through the pass, is a bit of a stretch for me. Do you realize how cold it has to be to freeze a body of water such as a sea in 24 hours or so? It's got to be well below 32 degrees. I fully understand that in some mountainous passes in the middle east it can get very cold, but we're talking sea level here and a temperature that would likely have to be way below zero for such a freeze to occur in the time that the account allows for the dividing and the crossing. Further, the Red Sea is a salt water body. Salt water requires about 28 degrees F to freeze. The Red Sea lies roughly along the same lattitude as Florida. If you can show me some evidence that salt water has ever frozen anywhere along that lattitude at sea level I'd be interested in seeing it. I'm confident that your mentor won't be able to provide such evidence. The lowest temperature ever recorded in Egypt is about 44 degrees F. Even if we were to allow that some strange anomaly caused the temperature to drop to zero degrees F a body of salt water such as a sea would not freeze. Not in 24 hours. Fresh water in a small bottle or clay urn, yes, but salt water in a sea, never! For something akin to a huge iceberg to freeze that would stop up the width of the Red Sea, you'd need to have very, very low temperatures for a very, very extended length of time.

Further, what freezes from salt water is the pure water. This is why you can drink the water from a frozen iceberg. I remember years ago, to solve the water shortage problems around the world, men considered towing icebergs to those areas to melt and provide clean drinking water. Your mentor has taken a known fact that water can freeze along the lattitude of the Red Sea, but thown out all the differences that allow that non-salted water to freeze at much higher elevations and then stands back and tells you, 'see, it can happen'.

As I said, your mentor has thought to imagine that he can explain to unbelievers and even believers that he can explain
'how' it's possible that the account of the Exodus from Egypt could have happened using just regular explanations based on regular natural properties. He can't! And I'd warn anyone trying to adopt his thinking and methodology that what is really happening here is that we are trying to deny the full glory and power of God. We are striving to deny God the full glory of what He can do by making claims that when He works, He just manipulates the natural properties of things.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited · Mar 9, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
The earth and heaven were created in the beginning - at the same time as per Genesis 1:1. This was before the first day of creation; when darkness fell upon earth, and earth became void - and when God moved and separated the darkness from the light, then the first day of creation began.

Also, day doesn't necessarily mean one 24 hour period, or 1000 years. It can mean any unspecific period of time. The context is important, and how can there be a 24 hour day before a sun and moon were created? How, then, can we even use the "A day with the Lord is as 1000 (human) years with man = 8,760,000 24 hour days" - a measure that is based on the earth's rotation about its axis with respect to the sun? There is something else going on in the Hebrew...

Hi tatteredsoul,

I've written about this before. Yes, if we only look at the word 'day' in the Genesis account, we can't be sure of its duration. However, when you define that day as consisting of an evening and a morning there is not a single writing in all of the world that has done so and meant a period longer than a normal, single rotation of the earth, 'day'. Day is the kind of word that needs a contextual clue for the reader to understand the period of time that it refers to. God know this! God put the word in context for us.

God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine. He knew before He created this realm that a time would come when men would not put up with sound doctrine, but rather, surround themselves with others to tell them what their itching ears wanted to hear. He knew that there would be great and extended discussions on what the word 'day' in the Genesis account could mean. So, God set for us some context by which we would understand.

Now, each is free to deny that and it seems that everyone who enjoins these discussions regarding the length of the creation days always gets hung up on just the word 'day'. They never write the word in its full context, but merely write 'day' and then go off on tangents regarding how long a day 'could' be.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

greenguzzi · Mar 9, 2016

yeshuasavedme said:
Methinks you have a big problem with God.
Are you a disciple of Hugh Ross? You seem to be, for he denies the Word under guise of "science" which is the biblical "...so called".

The creation narrative in Genesis is mythological and polemic. It is therefore important and true. But once you try to use it to describe the physical universe you end up with gibberish, as you have adequately demonstrated.

I don't have a problem with God at all. It's just that I'm not sloppy when I study His word. God gave us eyes and a brain. He expects us to use them.

I've never heard of Hugh Ross. I've just Googled him; he seems like a sensible chap. I would never be his (or anyone's) disciple nor necessarily agree with everything he says. But he makes a lot more sense than you do. Thanks for introducing him to me.

I don't deny the word, I do my honest best to affirm it.

I believe that your theology is harmful. Each one of us following Christ are in a different point in our journey. Therefore we won't always agree with each other. I've learnt that when I find myself in disagreement with someone over a theological matter, that it's often best to remain silent. Or at least try to find some point of agreement. I often find that when I'm evaluating new (to me) theological ideas that I learn something, or sometimes even get persuaded. However there are rare occasions when a disagreement becomes a heresy. I believe that your "electric universe" theology is such a heresy. It makes a mockery of His word, and I will speak out against it whenever I get the opportunity.

yeshuasavedme · Mar 9, 2016

miamited said:
Hi YSM,

Yes, I agree that God used the wind to divide the sea, but as mentioned, keeping it divided for the duration of time that it took for the Israelites to pass through, while a seemingly stronger than hurricane force wind blew through the pass, is a bit of a stretch for me. Do you realize how cold it has to be to freeze a body of water such as a sea in 24 hours or so? It's got to be well below 32 degrees. I fully understand that in some mountainous passes in the middle east it can get very cold, but we're talking sea level here and a temperature that would likely have to be way below zero for such a freeze to occur in the time that the account allows for the dividing and the crossing. Further, the Red Sea is a salt water body. Salt water requires about 28 degrees F to freeze. The Red Sea lies roughly along the same lattitude as Florida. If you can show me some evidence that salt water has ever frozen anywhere along that lattitude at sea level I'd be interested in seeing it. I'm confident that your mentor won't be able to provide such evidence. The lowest temperature ever recorded in Egypt is about 44 degrees F. Even if we were to allow that some strange anomaly caused the temperature to drop to zero degrees F a body of salt water such as a sea would not freeze. Not in 24 hours. Fresh water in a small bottle or clay urn, yes, but salt water in a sea, never! For something akin to a huge iceberg to freeze that would stop up the width of the Red Sea, you'd need to have very, very low temperatures for a very, very extended length of time.

Further, what freezes from salt water is the pure water. This is why you can drink the water from a frozen iceberg. I remember years ago, to solve the water shortage problems around the world, men considered towing icebergs to those areas to melt and provide clean drinking water. Your mentor has taken a known fact that water can freeze along the lattitude of the Red Sea, but thown out all the differences that allow that non-salted water to freeze at much higher elevations and then stands back and tells you, 'see, it can happen'.

As I said, your mentor has thought to imagine that he can explain to unbelievers and even believers that he can explain
'how' it's possible that the account of the Exodus from Egypt could have happened using just regular explanations based on regular natural properties. He can't! And I'd warn anyone trying to adopt his thinking and methodology that what is really happening here is that we are trying to deny the full glory and power of God. We are striving to deny God the full glory of what He can do by making claims that when He works, He just manipulates the natural properties of things.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hi Ted,
I'm sorry I did not read every word of your post in this one before replying, but I try to keep it short to make my point, and I don't think you read mine.....
The Word says it was a "strong, mighty, fierce", east wind that blew all day and all night.

Exo 14:16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.
Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Then, we see that the waters were congealed, they were ice -they froze by the wind, and it does not take a low temp atmosphere for a strong wind over water to make that water ice. I said to you that Jonathan Gray said natives in that hot land make ice even in this age, by placing water containers in narrow passes where the wind blows hard, through.

So Ted, it was a miracle, and a scientific application of wind blasting through water to heap it up as ice, with scientific timing for the ceasing of the wind for the Israelites to cross over, and while they did, the ice heap was weakening in that warm weather, so that by the time the Egyptians entered and got just far enoug in, the "iced up heaps of water walls" collapsed, drowning them all.

yeshuasavedme · Mar 9, 2016

Dear greenguzzi,
Everything is electric in this creation. Your body is electric, your heart is run by electric powers. The forces of the nature of all things is spirit, and are held together by the Electro- magnetic powers -the powers of the heavens [or, as the Word says "the firmament of His powers"], set in place by God at the beginning of creation hold the earth in place, and the heavens in place, and by them, the sun and moon are connected to run the same paths in the circling heavens, with the moon falling behind a certain number of days in each certain number of years until they begin at the same points after so many years, again [chapter 74 lists those numbers...http://summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RHC.htm#99:2].

miamited · Mar 9, 2016

Hi YSM,

Yes I read all of your earlier post. You have repeated your reply as thus:

yeshuasavedme said:
Then, we see that the waters were congealed, they were ice -they froze by the wind, and it does not take a low temp atmosphere for a strong wind over water to make that water ice. I said to you that Jonathan Gray said natives in that hot land make ice even in this age, by placing water containers in narrow passes where the wind blows hard, through.

It's the 'then, we see that the waters were congealed, they were ice - thy froze by the wind...' part that I'm not in agreement that the Scriptures tell us that 'then, we see...'. All of that is merely conjecture on your part. There is nothing in the Scriptures to infer that the water 'congealed'. All that is said is that the waters divided. We are then told that there was a wall of 'water' on both their left hand and their right hand.

But the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.

That exact description is found in both Exodus 14:22 and 14:29. I looked through a comparison of all the translations on biblestudytools.com and not a single translation translates any of it as 'congealed' or 'ice'. This all comes from your imagining to yourself how this account of the Exodus could have happened while allowing for the natural properties of things. You're free to do that, although the Scriptures do warn us of going beyond that which is written. But to expect that others are just going to take your imaginings and such understanding as you have laid out without the slightest shred of proof, again I will ask you for proof that salt water has ever frozen at sea level in the area of the Red Sea, is a bit of a stretch and I'm certainly not willing to climb on board the imagination station.

Just one. Give me one observed occurrence of salt water freezing at sea level in the lattitude of the Red Sea. You mention that middle easterners have frozen water by leaving it out in the wind. Fine! Where did this happen? What was the elevation. Do you have even a single evidence, besides your Dr. Gray, that this has actually happened at sea level in the middle east? Even if you want to use Dr. Gray's evidence all I need you to do is tell me where Dr. Gray observed this phenomenon? Has he actually observed people freezing salt water by leaving it in bottles within 500 feet of the shore of the Red Sea?

I lived in Florida during the hard freeze of, I think 1988, and was in south florida during the coldest day on record of 1977. There was not a single crystal of ice in all of the ocean. There wasn't even any ice in swimming pools because the temperature did not stay cold enough for long enough to freeze the water. Bird baths and shallow water containers did gather some ice, but nothing in salt water and certainly nothing on the scope and size of a sea. You're just dreaming, friend, to even think that because a small bottle of water 'can' freeze under certain conditions in the middle east, that a rolling sea will also do so. Seas move and the surface water is constantly being stirred and warmer waters from below the surface are constantly mixed with colder waters on the surface. It's tough to freeze a sea. It happens in the extreme northern and southern hemisphere climes but it takes days and months of below freezing temperatures for this to happen. Fjords in Scandinavian countries can freeze, but it won't happen overnight and it won't happen just from a sudden temperature change of one day being 50 or 60 degrees to the next day being 0 degrees. It takes my refrigerator ice maker a couple of hours to make ice with unsalted water and it's well below 32 degrees in there. And that's just little tiny compartments that will transfer the cold quickly. If I take a two gallon jug of non-saline water and stick it in my freezer it takes quite a bit longer to freeze solid. Now, just imagine, while you've got your imagination working, how long it would take for a salt sea to freeze. Imagine what the temperature would have to be to do this within 24 hours. Then imagine whether a human being could live in it in just clothing worn in the area of Egypt.

There are just so many holes in this theory that it honestly isn't even funny. However, I fully appreciate that we are prone to believe that which we have convinced ourselves is the truth. We fight long and hard to explain away the miracles of God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hoghead1 · Mar 9, 2016

Ted, I am having trouble following your arguments, as often you present no supporting evidence, just state that those who do not agree with you have no real understanding of God. The problem is that you are assuming your interpretation or understanding is automatically right and so everyone else is a lost soul. Such assumption have no real place in a serious theological discussion. You can say whatever you want and object to whatever you want, but then you have taken on the responsibility of providing solid supporting arguments.

tatteredsoul · Mar 9, 2016

miamited said:
Hi tatteredsoul,

I've written about this before. Yes, if we only look at the word 'day' in the Genesis account, we can't be sure of its duration. However, when you define that day as consisting of an evening and a morning there is not a single writing in all of the world that has done so and meant a period longer than a normal, single rotation of the earth, 'day'. Day is the kind of word that needs a contextual clue for the reader to understand the period of time that it refers to. God know this! God put the word in context for us.

Even if you use "evening and morning," in its contemporary sense (and not the Hebrew context and image device,) then it still begs the question of where an evening and morning can come from if there is no sun or moon

God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine. He knew before He created this realm that a time would come when men would not put up with sound doctrine, but rather, surround themselves with others to tell them what their itching ears wanted to hear. He knew that there would be great and extended discussions on what the word 'day' in the Genesis account could mean. So, God set for us some context by which we would understand.

Now, each is free to deny that and it seems that everyone who enjoins these discussions regarding the length of the creation days always gets hung up on just the word 'day'. They never write the word in its full context, but merely write 'day' and then go off on tangents regarding how long a day 'could' be.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted[/QUOTE]

miamited said:
Hi tatteredsoul,

I've written about this before. Yes, if we only look at the word 'day' in the Genesis account, we can't be sure of its duration. However, when you define that day as consisting of an evening and a morning there is not a single writing in all of the world that has done so and meant a period longer than a normal, single rotation of the earth, 'day'. Day is the kind of word that needs a contextual clue for the reader to understand the period of time that it refers to. God know this! God put the word in context for us.

God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine. He knew before He created this realm that a time would come when men would not put up with sound doctrine, but rather, surround themselves with others to tell them what their itching ears wanted to hear. He knew that there would be great and extended discussions on what the word 'day' in the Genesis account could mean. So, God set for us some context by which we would understand.

Now, each is free to deny that and it seems that everyone who enjoins these discussions regarding the length of the creation days always gets hung up on just the word 'day'. They never write the word in its full context, but merely write 'day' and then go off on tangents regarding how long a day 'could' be.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Evening and morning still beg the question of a day, and/or the location of a sun and moon (which did not exist until the forth "day.") Not, unless you look at the Hebrew.

Evening means dusk, but it is from the Hebrew word "arab," which means "covering, mingling, braiding, darkened." Notice what God did before the evening existed: He defined light and day, and created a firmament (covering.) That creation of the firmament was "arab," and the "breaking away, ploughing of, consideration and inspection of that firmament" (baqar in Hebrew) was the morning. No sun needed. No moon needed. "Light and Dark" were separated, and defined (and this goes even deeper in the Hebrew connotations of what happened in just five verses.) And, it still doesn't define what a day is as any numerable measure of "time."

tatteredsoul · Mar 9, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
Evening and morning still beg the question of a day, and/or the location of a sun and moon (which did not exist until the forth "day.") Not, unless you look at the Hebrew.

Evening means dusk, but it is from the Hebrew word "arab," which means "covering, mingling, braiding, darkened." Notice what God did before the evening existed: He defined light and day, and created a firmament (covering.) That creation of the firmament was "arab," and the "breaking away, ploughing of, consideration and inspection of that firmament" (baqar in Hebrew) was the morning. No sun needed. No moon needed. "Light and Dark" were separated, and defined (and this goes even deeper in the Hebrew connotations of what happened in just five verses.) And, it still doesn't define what a day is as any numerable measure of "time."

miamited · Mar 9, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
Even if you use "evening and morning," in its contemporary sense (and not the Hebrew context and image device,) then it still begs the question of where an evening and morning can come from if there is no sun or moon

Hi tatteredsoul,

Similarly those who claim that you can not have a 'day' without the sun, are others who say that you can't have an evening and morning without the sun or moon. Oddly enough, at 1a.m. I can't find the sun out anywhere to tell me that it's morning. Evening and morning are merely two equal halves of the period of a day. Just as a.m. and p.m. are not defined by the rising or setting of either the sun or the moon.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

yeshuasavedme · Mar 9, 2016

miamited said:
Hi YSM,

Yes I read all of your earlier post. You have repeated your reply as thus:

It's the 'then, we see that the waters were congealed, they were ice - thy froze by the wind...' part that I'm not in agreement that the Scriptures tell us that 'then, we see...'.

There is nothing in the Scriptures to infer that the water 'congealed'. All that is said is that the waters divided. We are then told that there was a wall of 'water' on both their left hand and their right hand.

I posted the Scriptures that show the "then".

Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided

Exo 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

Psa 78:13 He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.

Job says this about that:
Psa 33:7

He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. the titanic hit a congealed heap of waters.
...He isn't "my Jonathan Gray", but he was the first who brought it to my attention that the Word of God does say that the waters were congealed when they stood in a heap.
Iceburgs. out of the ocean of salt water.
The waters were divided by the very strong east wind that blew all night, and that same very strong east wind congealed the waters that stood as a heap -now that is what the Word says! -then no more directed, pointed, east wind on next day, and the Israelites crossed over between the heaped up congealed waters, which was an ice heap.

yeshuasavedme · Mar 9, 2016

Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided

Ted, my edit button is not there, so I added this:
Exo 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

congeal: Strong's: קָפָא qâphâʼ, kaw-faw'; a primitive root; to shrink, i.e. thicken (as unracked wine, curdled milk, clouded sky, frozen water):—congeal, curdle, dark, settle.

Psa 78:13 He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.

Job says this about that:
Psa 33:7

He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. the titanic hit a congealed heap of waters.
...He isn't "my Jonathan Gray", but he was the first who brought it to my attention that the Word of God does say that the waters were congealed when they stood in a heap.
Iceburgs. out of the ocean of salt water.
The waters were divided by the very strong east wind that blew all night, and that same very strong east wind congealed the waters that stood as a heap -now that is what the Word says! -then no more directed, pointed, east wind on next day, and the Israelites crossed over between the heaped up congealed waters, which was an ice heap.[/QUOTE]

Where is a "6000 year old earth" found in scripture?

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