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Where gravity and forces come from..!

dad

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Not with stuff from the bible you mean. Just maths, physics and observations.
You run your numbers from this state, you observe all things here too. Physics is also here. So here is what you know.

That's not how he did it, that's what he did. Try again.
So you agree He made the earth first. OK.

They don't know what you think they need to know. That's not the same thing as what they actually need.
It since they need to know what they are talking about, when they spout stuff out about the far future.
 
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dad

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OK, my bad. You just said we don't even know what the fundamental forces are, as if this is a great failing. It is logically obvious that we will never know about the details of the most fundamental thing we know about. That isn't a failure, that is simply true of every topic.

I'd say it is a clear fail. It neuters the scio out of science.



There are multiple theories about the long term outcome of the universe. I don't think any of them have been proven true beyond a reasonable doubt.

Funny they rattle them off like they are gospel.

I agree it is foolish, but a hypothetical possibility none the less.


Not if there is a God. That leaves your what iffing out in the godless speculation dept.




We would expect evidence to be left behind if the fundamental forces were not constant. There has been no evidence to indicate that these forces haven't been constant. If gravity were to change, it would have massive effects on orbiting objects. The orbit of the planets seems to imply that gravity has been a constant since at least the formation of this solar system.

Who says? How so? If some change occurred then orbits could start or change, etc. Merely having stuff go round stuff a certain way does not mean that stuff always did the same thing.
Fairly strong evidence in favor of a constant, lack of evidence against them being constant, I will stick with constant.
You forgot to mention this evidence. What, the orbiting thing??


In fact, I will say I "know" they are constant (or extremely slow to change), within that whole reasonable doubt. You can run off and say you don't believe that, but that is why I brought up the shared dream hypothesis.

So, now you "know" again. Hilarious. How do you know radioactive decay existed 6000 years ago?



"present only" ... I think you ment physical only. Show me evidence of real harms, and I will begin to consider them.[/quote]
 
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ug333

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I'd say it is a clear fail. It neuters the scio out of science.
Then, I must point out once again that you completely miss the goals of science.

Funny they rattle them off like they are gospel.
sorry, I guess


Not if there is a God. That leaves your what iffing out in the godless speculation dept.
...

Who says? How so? If some change occurred then orbits could start or change, etc. Merely having stuff go round stuff a certain way does not mean that stuff always did the same thing.

You forgot to mention this evidence. What, the orbiting thing??

You see, current orbits are exactly what we would expect if the solar system formed a slowly, a long time ago with consistent gravity. If the gravity shifted around, it would indeed impact the resulting orbit.

Unless God decided to start with the planets orbiting very differently, and then after his gravity tweaking the plants fell into orbits that look exactly as if the solar system formed slowly over a long period of time, we wouldn't be seeing what we are today.

So, now you "know" again. Hilarious. How do you know radioactive decay existed 6000 years ago?

I JUST went through this whole know vs know discussion: I know within reason, not absolutely. I don't claim to know ANYTHING absolutely, so I have grown accustom to using "know" to mean pretty darn sure. If you really find it necessary, I can add phrases like "within a reasonable degree of certainty" to every statement I make, but I am guessing you would find this as annoying to read as I would to write.

But there is actual evidence of radioactive decay occurring a long time ago. Other material near/around radioactive material is effected by radiation in a predictable way. When we look at samples, low and behold the patterns are what we would expect within the 4.5 billion year old earth and constant decay models. So, again, the only alternative hypothesis you are leaving me with is that God fine tuned ALL of these things to look as if the earth is old when in fact it is young. If that was his goal, he did an amazing job.
 
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ug333

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dad

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so dad, basically your whole argument is that "things were DIFFERENT"?

"things" of course being every physical law in the universe.
Well, that is what history and the bible seem to indicate. Just as they will be different in the future according to the bible. What about it?
 
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dad

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Then, I must point out once again that you completely miss the goals of science.

Not at all. If the goal is not to know, then they need to get out of forcing kids to learn the stuff as fact business.

sorry, I guess
I don't forgive the crime against humanity. Sorry.

You see, current orbits are exactly what we would expect if the solar system formed a slowly, a long time ago with consistent gravity. If the gravity shifted around, it would indeed impact the resulting orbit.

No, I do not see anything of the sort. Example?? Earth, for example...how is our orbit showing any slow formation?? You need to do more here than claim stuff.
Unless God decided to start with the planets orbiting very differently, and then after his gravity tweaking the plants fell into orbits that look exactly as if the solar system formed slowly over a long period of time, we wouldn't be seeing what we are today.

Explain?



I JUST went through this whole know vs know discussion: I know within reason, not absolutely. I don't claim to know ANYTHING absolutely, so I have grown accustom to using "know" to mean pretty darn sure.
Nonsense. You know not.


If you really find it necessary, I can add phrases like "within a reasonable degree of certainty" to every statement I make, but I am guessing you would find this as annoying to read as I would to write.

Better than pretending you know. Also if you say within a degree of certainty, you might realize there was a onus to evidence what you say.

But there is actual evidence of radioactive decay occurring a long time ago.
Great. Can we see it please?? Really.

Other material near/around radioactive material is effected by radiation in a predictable way. When we look at samples, low and behold the patterns are what we would expect within the 4.5 billion year old earth and constant decay models.

What a cop out.

So, again, the only alternative hypothesis you are leaving me with is that God fine tuned ALL of these things to look as if the earth is old when in fact it is young. If that was his goal, he did an amazing job.
No. I am leaving you with this...you do not seem to know what you are talking about, and are vague.
 
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Nostromo

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You run your numbers from this state, you observe all things here too. Physics is also here. So here is what you know.
And you're here too. Here is what you know. You read a book that actually mentions nothing about different state laws of nature, and just wrote them in yourself. This is your own personal innovation that contradicts the Bible and the world as we know it.

So you agree He made the earth first. OK.
As you're not going to try again, I'll assume you haven't an answer for me.
 
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Delphiki

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You mean just the Bible -- "history" indicates no such thing.

Actually, not even the bible either. I've already asked him to show where it describes this "different states" business in the bible and he failed there too. The entire idea exists solely in his imagination.

As long as he's just troll and has no real power, I'm not worried. It's not like he'll actually be able to stop science from being taught in schools. The only thing we have to worry about is our kids being preached to in schools, so I've decided to just chalk this guy up as a total nut job or troll.
 
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ug333

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Not at all. If the goal is not to know, then they need to get out of forcing kids to learn the stuff as fact business.
I have been acutely aware that science never proves anything 100% for a long time. Since grade school. I don't know what kids are being taught differently, but I know I never was.

I don't forgive the crime against humanity. Sorry.
well I think that is a little dramatic ... and aren't you supposed to forgive? Tsk tsk.


No, I do not see anything of the sort. Example?? Earth, for example...how is our orbit showing any slow formation?? You need to do more here than claim stuff.
Formation and evolution of the Solar System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I didn't say our orbit SHOWS slow formation, I said it was consistent with it. I would bother tracking down better sources of information, but you are going to dismiss anything I present anyways.


If gravity shifted 4000-6000 years ago, the orbits of the larger planets would not have stabilized by now. Evidence, I hear you cry. There is no way I am going to bother going through all the math to show that the orbit of something like Jupiter would not stabilize in a few thousand years for someone who has proven capable of ignoring any evidence presented. I doubt I would find anyone else who has that math already done, because I have never heard a serious scientific conversation concerning YEC and changing gravity.

Nonsense. You know not.

Better than pretending you know. Also if you say within a degree of certainty, you might realize there was a onus to evidence what you say.
know in English - Google Dictionary

"know" does not have a single definition. You can not hijack the world to only mean absolute certainty. I am openly admitting, and am well aware, of how I use the word.

Great. Can we see it please?? Really.

What a cop out.
Radiohalos. There are uranium halos that are well formed. That would have taken millions of years to do.

Now here come the links from INSANELY uninformed (or simply lying) creationists about radiohalos. Let me jump one step ahead of you on this.Po-218 halos are likely caused by migrating radon gas from near by uranium decay. And the hole polonium thing does nothing to answer the existence of rings consistent with millions of years of radioactive decay.

Interestingly enough, all rocks containing those rings have shown to be consistently dated through other methods as old enough for the rings to form. Again, if God tweaked the laws of physics, he sure did it in a consistent and universal way to make the earth look old.

No. I am leaving you with this...you do not seem to know what you are talking about, and are vague.

Are you serious, dad? You are claiming that I am ignorant and vague!?! You see, modern science agrees with my POV, so there are thousands of studies to back my claims up. You are the one making grand claims about non-constant forces, that in fact lays the burden of proof back on you.

You know, the only reason I am still discussing this with you is that I am hoping other YEC might be reading this and I don't want them to think there aren't valid responses to your statements. But if there any out there reading this, I think I have done my fair share.

When you give yourself free reign to change the laws of physics without the need for pesky things like models (how did the forces change, when did they change ... blah blah), there is no reason carrying on a debate. Because in that case, your view of the world has been completely dislodged from reality. When the whole of knowledge is claimed to be useless whenever it doesn't suite your world view, you have crossed into fantasy. I would say you are one step away from needing medication of some kind.

I even have a hunch of what you might be thinking right now: claiming science knows anything about the past is a fantasy. And it simply proves your understanding of this world and logic, and your grip on reality, are all equally weak. And to think that you are personally smarter than the whole of the scientific community also proves a degree of arrogance that is astonishing (another thing you aren't supposed to do, oh boy you are in trouble dad). When I was a Christian, I was ashamed of people like you in the faith. And now I am simply empathetic for all of those Christians who have faith and believe in a reasonable and supportable world view.
 
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dad

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Radiation ripples show the Big Bang may not have been the first, and there could be more to come | News.com.au

Oh, and BTW, regarding the end of the universe, here is yet more evidence recently brought forward. As you can clearly see, science hasn't come close to settling on a theory yet.

Note the last sentence of the article. Very critical, and a clear indication that he isn't preaching this as gospel, but merely data to learn from.

Hmm. From your article..

"
Sir Roger interprets the circles as ripple-like evidence of collisions between multiple supermassive black holes that occurred during the Universe's previous life..


So now reincarnation is science?? But you are right, at the end of the fantasy barrage article they admit they actually don't really know after all. I still think the 'all characters are fictional and bear no resemblance to real people living or dead' should come before the article or movie, though.

Most of the documentaries and articles rattle the lard off as if it was truth. ...

"
In our current view of the Universe there are 2 possible futures. One possiblity is that the Universe will come to an end in the opposite of a Big Bang called The Big Crunch.
The other possibility is that we live in an Eternal Universe that will never come to end. "

http://www.windows2universe.org/the_universe/Future.html

Or
"A team of astronomers recently used Arizona’s Infrared-Optical Telescope Array (IOTA) of three linked telescopes to peer 4 billion years into the future, when our Sun balloons up to become a red giant star. "

http://www.universetoday.com/370/a-glimpse-at-the-future-of-our-sun/

They say it as if it was true. Face it.





 
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dad

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dad

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I have been acutely aware that science never proves anything 100% for a long time. Since grade school. I don't know what kids are being taught differently, but I know I never was.
In the real world, they spew out future prophesies from science as if they were true, as well as fantasy drivel about creation and the past.

well I think that is a little dramatic ... and aren't you supposed to forgive? Tsk tsk.
They that offend little ones are better off not living on earth longer, Jesus said.

Formation and evolution of the Solar System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I didn't say our orbit SHOWS slow formation, I said it was consistent with it. I would bother tracking down better sources of information, but you are going to dismiss anything I present anyways.

But it is consistent with more than a fantasy same state past. You have no monopoly on orbits.



If gravity shifted 4000-6000 years ago, the orbits of the larger planets would not have stabilized by now. Evidence, I hear you cry. There is no way I am going to bother going through all the math to show that the orbit of something like Jupiter would not stabilize in a few thousand years for someone who has proven capable of ignoring any evidence presented. I doubt I would find anyone else who has that math already done, because I have never heard a serious scientific conversation concerning YEC and changing gravity.

I do not say gravity changed. Whatever forces were in place before the change are what changed. If gravity was not the lone kid on the orbit block, then we cannot assume only one kid changed.

know in English - Google Dictionary

"know" does not have a single definition. You can not hijack the world to only mean absolute certainty. I am openly admitting, and am well aware, of how I use the word.

"know (n
omacr.gif
)v. knew (n
oomacr.gif
, ny
oomacr.gif
), known (n
omacr.gif
n), know·ing, knows
v.tr.1. To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty.
2. To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won't fail.
3. To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in: knows how to cook.
4. To have fixed in the mind: knows her Latin verbs.
5. To have experience of: "a black stubble that had known no razor" (William Faulkner).
6. a. To perceive as familiar; recognize: I know that face.
b. To be acquainted with: He doesn't know his neighbors.

7. To be able to distinguish; recognize as distinct: knows right from wrong.
8. To discern the character or nature of: knew him for a liar.
9. Archaic To have sexual intercourse with."

No one knows there was a same state past, or that there will be a same state future.




Radiohalos. There are uranium halos that are well formed. That would have taken millions of years to do.

Look at your statement.."would have"..! Would have IF the present were in place. Get it?

Now here come the links from INSANELY uninformed (or simply lying) creationists about radiohalos. Let me jump one step ahead of you on this.Po-218 halos are likely caused by migrating radon gas from near by uranium decay. And the hole polonium thing does nothing to answer the existence of rings consistent with millions of years of radioactive decay.

Looks like nothing more than a parent daughter thing. If a daughter takes more than 4500 years to decay, I would think, generally, that indicates it was here already at the change.

Interestingly enough, all rocks containing those rings have shown to be consistently dated through other methods as old enough for the rings to form. Again, if God tweaked the laws of physics, he sure did it in a consistent and universal way to make the earth look old.

The dating method is merely to associate same state causes to material relationships. Any correlation within that sort of thing is inbred.

You know, the only reason I am still discussing this with you is that I am hoping other YEC might be reading this and I don't want them to think there aren't valid responses to your statements. But if there any out there reading this, I think I have done my fair share.

You have your thoughts. Fact is, that when you fail, some may think about stuff.

When you give yourself free reign to change the laws of physics without the need for pesky things like models (how did the forces change, when did they change ... blah blah), there is no reason carrying on a debate.

False. The change was not IN the laws of physics. They are the change from whatever was.
Because in that case, your view of the world has been completely dislodged from reality. When the whole of knowledge is claimed to be useless whenever it doesn't suite your world view, you have crossed into fantasy. I would say you are one step away from needing medication of some kind.

Science is dislodged from any reality that is not in this present temporal physical only state.



And to think that you are personally smarter than the whole of the scientific community also proves a degree of arrogance that is astonishing (another thing you aren't supposed to do, oh boy you are in trouble dad).

The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men. Really.

When I was a Christian, I was ashamed of people like you in the faith.

You ain't exactly a flaming example of something I would be proud about either. Moving on..
And now I am simply empathetic for all of those Christians who have faith and believe in a reasonable and supportable world view.

Come on back, science was wrong after all, God was right all along. Be ashamed of them now. I am.
 
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