Where does scripture say God wants us to be sick?

[kenalim]

You can't argue with the Word of Faith bunch. They tend to be slippery and manipulative. When you question then they get rude and aggressive.

You might care to look at this site, which is all about them.
www.isitso.org/guide/wordfaith.html

Exactly... It's tough to answer their questions especially...

 

[seebs]

Exactly... It's tough to answer their questions especially...

It's very hard to answer the questions of an angry Christian Vanillaist. Are you saying God isn't powerful enough to give us all an ice cream cone every day? Don't you think ice cream is nice?

But that's not because the questions are incisive, or point to a flaw in non-Vanillaist theology.

 

[Maccie]

But I think that is unfair to just label millions of people as being rude, slippery, and manipulative.

Are you telling me there are millions of people in the Word of Faith Movement???????

All I can say is that from what I have read from some of the proponents of the WoF group, like benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, that they are verging on the heretical. Though I have to say that so far Rockrz has not done so. I don't agree with his interpretations, but that is my privilege.

 

[Maccie]

PS: by "Word of Faith" I mean the "name it and claim it" beliefs, whether this be health, wealth or having special powers.

I certainly do not include Pentecostals generally in this. I used to belong to a Pentecostal church, and my Pastor was very scathing about the "Blab it and grab it" lot, as he rudely called them!

 

[Rockrz]

There's nothing wrong with what you call "name it and claim it", IF there is scripture you are naming (something God has promised as belonging to His people), so you know it's God's will for you to claim it (you're claiming it to be true where your life is concerned).

This is how you got born-again!

Now, just because you do this, doesn't automatically mean that you get it right then. You have to learn how to receive, which is going to involve seedtime, harvest, and keeping out bad seeds that choke God's Word out of your heart making it unfruitful (see Mark ch.4). This is one reason why many who "try" this don't get whatever it is that they are claiming, like healing as an example.

Because they haven't become a student of receiving from God, they don't know what they are doing and end up getting nothing, and go around telling everyone the message doesn't work and it's of the devil just because they failed! Some even die because they didn't make learning from God the top, number 1 priority in their lives. It wasn't God's fault they died...
(many of these people can't even be helped by medical science, either)

No, there's nothing wrong with the message because it is found all over God's Word in both the New Testament and the Old Testament. The problem is people that "try" this are lacking knowledge and lacking vision and don't stick with it long enough for God to teach them how to receive. Many simply give up before the Holy Spirit can start teaching you what you need to change in your life that is keeping you from receiving.

We have to realize that God wants us to see things from His point of view. This is literally "having the mind of Christ" means! Plus, when Jesus said "Love your neighbor as yourself, don't you think He does the same?

In other words, do you believe that He loves you as much as Himself? He provided deliverance from all things evil for Himself...so you know He did the same for you. Chew on that one for a while...

He lives by His own commandments.

 

[seebs]

God is not tame.

God is not bound by rules; in fact, God visibly and repeatedly overrides the rules! "The Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath."

The way you get born again is not reciting a ritual spell which forces God to start obeying you. It just plain doesn't work like that.

 

[Rockrz]

God is bound by what He says. When He says something, it is His will, otherwise He wouldn't be saying it in the first place.

If God doesn't honor what He says, then He's a liar!
If He's a liar, I'm going back to drugs, sex, and rock-n-roll because there is no salvation and we're all going to hell.

If God is a liar, and we're all doomed to hell, then we may as well have some fun before we burn. Right?

I'm so glad God is not a liar as you are insinuating.

 

[Strong in Him]

Do you agree that there are many Christians with disabilities who are witnessing and glorifying God even though they haven't been healed? Yes or no?
Yes, because God will use anyone on their level...something is better than nothing at all.

May God forgive you for your condescending attitude, but remember what pride comes before ...

Do you believe that we should have a balanced approach to reading the Bible, not just picking out the bits we want to hear, but trying to understand the verses in the context in which they were written? Yes or no?
That's a great way to describe yourself! I believe you should quit being faithless on the particular scriptures you are denying concerning God's will for His people to live healthy, prosperous, victorious lives!

Ah, avoidance tactic - don't answer the question but turn it back on the questionner and make it seem like they're inadequate or at fault.
And because I point out that there's no scripture that says "I, the Lord want to give you lots of money and make your body healthy - turn to me for an instant cold cure", I'm being faithless am I? Not treating the Lord like an eternal cash point machine, but remaining true to his word and praising him during the difficult times is being faithless is it? Do you know what faithful means? It means "remaining loyal and steadfast", remaining true, not jumping ship/giving up when the going gets tough and a better offer comes along. I have been a Christian for many years, and am still a christian. Anyone can praise God/promise to follow him in the good times - that's no big deal. How about if things go wrong, if you believe something is true but have that belief challenged?

It's those bad mouth, defeated Christians that cause many in the world refuse to become believers. Why should they? They already have defeat! If Christians are going around being defeated, then why would anyone want to join a crowd that is defeated, has no power, and claims their God is trying to kill everyone?

Rubbish! I've already said that some people have been encouraged that God can use me with my disabilities, it gives them hope that he can help them too. Another example from Jennifer Rees-Larcombe; shortly after she was healed she went to a meeting. While she was there, a taxi driver came to pick up someone who was in a wheelchair. He said to Jennifer it's easy for you to praise God; you have your healing - look at him, he's disabled and still praises God. That's the bigger miracle in my book. The taxi driver was a non Christian.

If people refuse to become Christians, it's not because of the suffering of others; it's because they choose to use the fact of suffering as an excuse to hold the living God at arms length. And probably also because there aren't people to explain the Gospel to them.

 

[FreeinChrist]

That's funny...it's all inclusive where God is concerned! Too bad you don't get this.

God IS Love, and Love is concerned about every aspect of your existance!
It's a shame that you haven't learned this about our Heavenly Father...He really is good, all the time about everything!

I have only read a few pages of this thread.....but I am REALLY uinimpressed with your arrogant attitude and obvious spiritual immaturity.
If you truly had truth on your side, you wouldn't need to resort to making such assumptions about others and try so hard to insult them.

 

[Maccie]

FreeinChrist, Rock hasn't got round to reading Galatians 5:22-25 yet, let alone understanding what it means. Read gthe rest of the thread and you will see.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The DNA that produces the blood of the child comes from the father's DNA that was in the father's sperm that fertilized the egg in the mother's womb.

Well, that was one of the more 'less than intelligent' comments you have made.

Check the site below, Rocky - you will see that a child's blood type depends on the blood types of both parents. If you are having some doctor say that the father is the only one to determine blood type, then that 'doctor' is a quack.

Probably you just heard them wrong. It is the sex of a child that is determined by the spearm - whther the sperm carry X or Y. That is it.

http://www.genetree.com/about/ABO-calculator.asp

 

[FreeinChrist]

It's very hard to answer the questions of an angry Christian Vanillaist. Are you saying God isn't powerful enough to give us all an ice cream cone every day? Don't you think ice cream is nice?

But that's not because the questions are incisive, or point to a flaw in non-Vanillaist theology.

I agree.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Are you telling me there are millions of people in the Word of Faith Movement???????

All I can say is that from what I have read from some of the proponents of the WoF group, like benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, that they are verging on the heretical. Though I have to say that so far Rockrz has not done so. I don't agree with his interpretations, but that is my privilege.

I have concerns about the Word of Faith groups also. That is why I started one thread that had this as an OP:
The Theology of the Word of Faith movement - is it sound?

Doesn’t appear to be sound to me. Take a look:

“You are in control…God cannot do anything in this earth unless we…give Him permission…through prayer.” Frederick Price, Word Study Bible, 1990, page 1178

Compare with:
“Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure.” Isaiah 46:9-10


"Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in Myself. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord." Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory", Feb. 1987, p.9
compare with:
Mat 6:6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees {what is done} in secret will reward you.
Mat 6:9 "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.


"You don't have a god in you, you are one." Kenneth Copeland, "The Force Of Love" tape # 02-0028
compare with:
Rom 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Rom 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I wonder what WOFer’s think of Paul…

"I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'" Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory" broadcast on TBN, recorded 7/9/87

When Jesus said, “I AM”, those that heard Him recognized that Jesus was saying He is God. So Copeland wants people to do that too? hmmmm

Again:

“Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure.” Isaiah 46:9-10



Let’s look at some other things Copeland has said:

"God is the biggest failure in the Bible...the reason you've never thought that is because He never said He was one” Kenneth Copeland, "Praise-a-thon", broadcast on TBN, recorded 1988

Copeland has also stated that God has a body and this earth is “a copy of the mother planet” ( Kenneth Copeland, "Following the Faith of Abraham" tape # 01-3001).


In contrast:

Jhn 4:24

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Can’t find a single verse about a mother planet……what a surprise!



Where is this stuff coming from? Perhaps from New Age teachers??

What did Shirley McLaine write in Dancing in the Light? “Say to yourself, ‘I am a God’.”


"Say unto thyself "I am my own redeemer." Book of Satan, chapter 4.


"In dropping God, man recovers himself. It is time that god be put in his place, that is, in man, and no nonsense about it." New Age philosopher, L.L. White


"Kneel to your own self. Honor and worship your own being. God dwells within you as you." Swami Muktananda Paramahansa.

"You are perfect…gods who have created your own worlds. How do I know I am not the reincarnation of Jesus Christ?" Jack Rosenburg, aka Werner Erhard, founder of E.S.T.


"Jesus Christ himself was a parable, and his life an allegory of the experiences that man passes through in development from natural to spiritual conscience." Charles Fillmore, founder of Unity School of Christianity.



Please note what I have underlined:
“One of the biggest advantages we have as new Agers is, once the occult, metaphysical and new Age terminology is removed, we have concepts and techniques that are very acceptable to the general public. So we can change the names and demonstrate the power. In so doing, we open the new Age door to millions who normally would not be receptive. On the other hand, the Born-Again Christians, our most vocal antagonists, relate everything back to the blood of Christ and to the Bible. But our momentum will become so great that the combined efforts of all antagonists can't stop us unless they do so politically. Laws are the only way to block the New Age movement from growing within the consciousness of our population…New Age Activists encourage you as an individual to network with your family, friends, and associates, and to infuse New Age concepts and awareness into every area of your personal world, from the office to the bridge club, from the schoolroom to the Little League.” By Dick Sutphen in What Is-New Age Activists, vol.1, no. 1 newsletter, Summer 1986.


As Christians, we need to stand up to this type of teaching as it infects Christ’s church!!



Material is taken, in part, from: Vincent, Richard., An Examination of the Word-Faith Movement retrieved at http://www.biblebb.com/files/WRDFAITH.HTM, and “Been There, Done That!” at http://www.mission.org/jesuspeople/newage.htm

And of course, the Bible!

 

[Rockrz]

You would understand more about what's going on in the earth IF you knew the difference between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Are you telling me there are millions of people in the Word of Faith Movement???????

Ok... lets say there are only 1000.
Is it ok to label all of them?

All I can say is that from what I have read from some of the proponents of the WoF group, like benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, that they are verging on the heretical. Though I have to say that so far Rockrz has not done so. I don't agree with his interpretations, but that is my privilege.

I would have to know what it is you have read.
I do not know much about Hinn and so could not decide.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

PS: by "Word of Faith" I mean the "name it and claim it" beliefs, whether this be health, wealth or having special powers.

I certainly do not include Pentecostals generally in this. I used to belong to a Pentecostal church, and my Pastor was very scathing about the "Blab it and grab it" lot, as he rudely called them!

Yes.. that is rude.
Especially since Jesus is among those that teach you can have whatever you believe and say.
I would be careful about calling Jesus rude.
It easy to make stupid little sing song phases that appeal to the dull witted and slow.
"doubt pout, and do without" is another example.
Only school children and fools are swayed by such things.

 

[FreeinChrist]

You would understand more about what's going on in the earth IF you knew the difference between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant.

And you make another assumption....

 

[FreeinChrist]

Are you telling me there are millions of people in the Word of Faith Movement???????

All I can say is that from what I have read from some of the proponents of the WoF group, like benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, that they are verging on the heretical. Though I have to say that so far Rockrz has not done so. I don't agree with his interpretations, but that is my privilege.

I believe he has verged on heretical.
Examples:
"We know that Jesus was concieved in Mary's womb by the Word of God sent to her by an angel."

as opposed to:
Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

God sent the angel to make the announcement - the angel didn't send "the Word of God". And the Word is Jesus Christ.

"God is the one who provided the perfect DNA that made up Jesus. The Blood running through Jesus' veins was perfect Blood because no sinful earthly father provided this blood. When you study a little about medical science, you'll find that the blood of a child is provided by the father, not the mother."

Jesus was the perfect Passover Lamb because He lived a sinless life. He fulfilled the law by not only perfectly living it, but in being the perfect atoning sacrifice - the one that could remove sin and provide eternal salvation. Having been born of the Holy Spirit and Mary, He was 100% God, 100% human.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Yes.. that is rude.
Especially since Jesus is among those that teach you can have whatever you believe and say.
I would be careful about calling Jesus rude.
It easy to make stupid little sing song phases that appeal to the dull witted and slow.
"doubt pout, and do without" is another example.
Only school children and fools are swayed by such things.

She didn't call Jesus rude.

 

[Maccie]

I do not know much about Hinn and so could not decide.

Well, I suggest you find out. Its easy to google "Benny Hinn" and have all the infor right there. Took about a nanosecond!

You would understand more about what's going on in the earth IF you knew the difference between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant.

Another non-answer from the master of the art!

I would be careful about calling Jesus rude.

I wasn't calling Jesus rude. I said that "blab it and grab it" was a rather rude term. Seems pretty accurate, though!

It easy to make stupid little sing song phases that appeal to the dull witted and slow.
"doubt pout, and do without" is another example.
Only school children and fools are swayed by such things.

You are verging on flaming here. I didn't make up the phrase, my ex-Pentecostal Pastor did. And I would prefer you didn't imply that those who disagree with you are fools or schoolchildren.

And both FreeinChrist and myself believe the Word of Faith movement is heretical. FreeinChrist has posted several statements that she considers heretical. I have pointed to Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland. And she has pointed out the following, which I entirely agree with. And thanks to her for taking all the trouble to do this.

I believe he has verged on heretical.
Examples:
"We know that Jesus was concieved in Mary's womb by the Word of God sent to her by an angel."

as opposed to:
Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

God sent the angel to make the announcement - the angel didn't send "the Word of God". And the Word is Jesus Christ.

"God is the one who provided the perfect DNA that made up Jesus. The Blood running through Jesus' veins was perfect Blood because no sinful earthly father provided this blood. When you study a little about medical science, you'll find that the blood of a child is provided by the father, not the mother."

Jesus was the perfect Passover Lamb because He lived a sinless life. He fulfilled the law by not only perfectly living it, but in being the perfect atoning sacrifice - the one that could remove sin and provide eternal salvation. Having been born of the Holy Spirit and Mary, He was 100% God, 100% human

Now I sit back and look for a succession of non-answers!