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Where does morality come from?

Ken-1122

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You're demanding evidence that you should have evidence to back up your beliefs. I don't care if you realize that evidence is necessary to justify belief, it just discredits all of your claims that you think it doesn't. You're demonstrating that you'll believe what you like to believe, and that there's no reason to give you the benefit of the doubt that you've reasoned your way to your position.
Evidence is needed when you are trying to convince someone else of something. If you already believe something, you don't need further evidence to support what you already believe.

That I haven't bothered to hold your hand through more basic word definitions does not make my claim "baseless". Your claim that you don't believe you need a shred of evidence for is "baseless". I simply haven't wasted my time proving a statement that would be trivial to do. You can't show evidence for yours.
I'm not asking you to hold my hand, I'm just saying you need to provide more than just your opinion to refute what I say if you are going to expect me to believe you

You decide what you think is reasonable, but you are incorrect. Reason deals in facts and objectivity. Learn what reason is.
No, facts are not required for reason. I've provided dictionary definitions that point this out to you.
 
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Moral Orel

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Evidence is needed when you are trying to convince someone else of something. If you already believe something, you don't need further evidence to support what you already believe.
If you don't need evidence to convince yourself of something, then you're going to just believe whatever suits your fancy. Go ahead, but I'm not going to bother providing evidence to someone who is okay with disregarding it just because it doesn't suit their fancy. If your beliefs aren't ruled by evidence, what's to stop you from believing whatever evidence I provide isn't dependable just because it suits your fancy, eh? You've plainly stated already that you can't be convinced that you're incorrect.
I'm not asking you to hold my hand, I'm just saying you need to provide more than just your opinion to refute what I say if you are going to expect me to believe you
It's not an opinion, it's knowing what reason is and what an assumption is that allows me to make the statement I did. You called it "baseless" because you don't know what those words mean.
No, facts are not required for reason. I've provided dictionary definitions that point this out to you.
Reason deals in facts. You looked up the word "reasonable", now go study what "reason" is. Learn about logical fallacies while you're at it because your posts are rife with them.
 
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stevevw

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You look pretty silly making a claim like that about "most philosophers and ethicists" and then posting nothing but radical Calvinist apologetic to back it up.
How is that relevant to the content. All your doing is making an ad hominem logical fallacy.

I can see why you like this guy; he argues just like you do, by telling his opponents what their position must be. ;)
But is he wrong and if so how. But once again another logical fallacy. All you are doing is attacking the person and not addressing the content. So let's just look at the content. How is it that there are many mainstream articles that say exactly the same thing as these so-called non-credible people who have authored these articles.

The article you claim comes from a radical Calvinist happens to quote Sam Harris a prominent mainstream atheist who seems to agree with him.
How have we convinced ourselves that in the moral sphere there is no such thing as moral expertise, or moral talent, or moral genius even? How have we convinced ourselves that every opinion has to count? How have we convinced ourselves that every culture has a point of view on these subjects worth considering?— Sam Harris

How is what these articles are saying any different to what most mainstream philosophers and ethicists are saying in that as relativists it makes no sense to criticize other cultures and as subjectivists, it makes no sense to claim others are morally wrong. That both people who claim these positions are being hypocrites.

You can tell when people cannot deal with the truth is when they attack the source rather than the content.


That's because our moral sense is not solely the result of individual conscious thought. It's not something each person figures out for himself each time he confronts a moral dilemma.
You still haven't accounted for why it is morally wrong. How personal views, beliefs, socialization, "likes and dislikes" can be equated with moral right and wrong. Even if you say it is passed down and learned as a norm it still doesn't equate to moral right and wrong values and duties or explain why an act is right or wrong. There is no independent and objective measure to determine what is up and what is down.

For example, different cultures have different views on right and wrong. Some African tribes may mutilate women through circumcision. Eskimos may leave a newborn out to die because they know there is not enough food for the rest of the group to survive the winter. Under a relativist's position just like subjectivists one, these moral acts passed down through acculturation cannot be regarded as morally wrong. Nor is there any measure to determine any moral values.

So, in reality, none of this equates to moral right and wrong it is all dictated by humans and is different to whatever individuals or groups of humans are influenced by. It could change at any time due to personal influences or survival needs and we as a western nation may be doing something we thought immoral due to changing circumstances in near future.

But the problem is we know this is not how morality works. We do protest that certain things are wrong despite cultural and individual differences and personal views. We do say that it is wrong for Eskimos to leave a child to die and for African women to be circumcised. We condemn it and contradict our own moral position. That just shows that there is something at work beyond us, outside us that works against relativity and subjectivity and shows how these positions cannot work in the real world.

All you are doing is trying to find some meaning to attach to morality but there is none because anything that originates from humans be it, individual or group present or passed down still has no independent measure of right and wrong. Any action can be justified as OK.
 
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stevevw

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There is a difference between believing your moral beliefs are universal vs believing that they should be universal.
Yes, you cannot believe that your moral views can be universal because "they're your moral views". That would be like a Dictator.

Relative
The belief that your moral views are only for you, and others have their own that is only for them; and one view is no better than the other.
There are different forms of relativity. The most known one is cultural relativity. This is where different cultures may have different moral views, beliefs. IE an African tribe believes in human sacrifice or cannibalism. Whereas a western culture like us will think that is wrong. The difference to individual subjectivism is that relative moral values may underpin the entire culture. There could be two different cultures living within the same borders with different cultural moral judgments.

Subjective
The belief that your moral views should be for everybody, but you realize other people have their moral views that are different than yours, but you think their moral views are wrong.
It's not really a belief that your morals should be for everyone because if you understand them you would realize they are only your opinion. Even if the society happened to converge with their moral values, that doesn't mean that everyone has to view them as right for them.

There is really no independent reason to believe that societies' or a group's moral values are the right ones. We have seen plenty of examples of how society thought they were morally right but were wrong.

Objective
The belief that your moral view applies to everybody.
The problem with objective is a quick look at the real world you will see your moral views are not applied to everybody.
No, the problem is objective morality is not your or any human's morality. It is like saying that the objective fact the earth is round is not yours or anyone's view. It is round because it is really round independent of anyone's opinion.
 
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stevevw

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By learning moral philosophy 101.
You said you were a value Nilhilist but I cannot find much on this. I know about Nihilism but not sure about value Nihilism. I guess its Nihilism applied to values. But that sort of doesn't make sense. Most info on Nihilism says its a pretty untenable position to have anyway and pretty outdated now. I like Jorden Petersen on Nihilism. Pretty straight forward and logically argued.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCYxSenyjQg
 
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VirOptimus

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You said you were a value Nilhilist but I cannot find much on this. I know about Nihilism but not sure about value Nihilism. I guess its Nihilism applied to values. But that sort of doesn't make sense. Most info on Nihilism says its a pretty untenable position to have anyway and pretty outdated now. I like Jorden Petersen on Nihilism. Pretty straight forward and logically argued.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCYxSenyjQg

I wont watch anything you link to because of your posting history.

Read Axel Hägerström (founder of value nihilism) or Joseph Raz (more modern, not a strict value nihilist but pretty close).
 
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stevevw

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I wont watch anything you link to because of your posting history.

Read Axel Hägerström (founder of value nihilism) or Joseph Raz (more modern, not a strict value nihilist but pretty close).
OK, I will, but you will have to give me time to get my head around it.
 
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VirOptimus

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OK, I will, but you will have to give me time to get my head around it.
Take all the time you need.

Also-your stance is more in tune with Ronald Dworkin who Raz critique all the time (not always apparent though) and may be studied alongside both Raz and Hägerström to get a grasp of moral philosophy and the different schools of thought.
 
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Speedwell

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How is that relevant to the content. All your doing is making an ad hominem logical fallacy.
The content is irrelevant to your claim about "most philosophers and ethicists."

But is he wrong and if so how.
I don't care. The article is irreverent to your claim.
But once again another logical fallacy. All you are doing is attacking the person and not addressing the content. So let's just look at the content. How is it that there are many mainstream articles that say exactly the same thing as these so-called non-credible people who have authored these articles.

The article you claim comes from a radical Calvinist
I didn't claim it was non-credible, just irrelevant. But the author does belong to a Calvinist splinter sect; that's not a claim, it's a fact. Hs opinions aren't representative of "most philosophers and ethicists."
happens to quote Sam Harris a prominent mainstream atheist who seems to agree with him.
How have we convinced ourselves that in the moral sphere there is no such thing as moral expertise, or moral talent, or moral genius even? How have we convinced ourselves that every opinion has to count? How have we convinced ourselves that every culture has a point of view on these subjects worth considering?— Sam Harris
I can't find that reference in the Matt Slick article we have been talking about, but if you had actually read Sam Harris on the subject you would find that he goes on to answer hs own question rather convincingly. Whoever fed you that quote is engaging in a dishonest practice known as "quote mining."

How is what these articles are saying any different to what most mainstream philosophers and ethicists are saying in that as relativists it makes no sense to criticize other cultures and as subjectivists, it makes no sense to claim others are morally wrong. That both people who claim these positions are being hypocrites.

You can tell when people cannot deal with the truth is when they attack the source rather than the content.
You still haven't accounted for why it is morally wrong. How personal views, beliefs, socialization, "likes and dislikes" can be equated with moral right and wrong. Even if you say it is passed down and learned as a norm it still doesn't equate to moral right and wrong values and duties or explain why an act is right or wrong. There is no independent and objective measure to determine what is up and what is down.

For example, different cultures have different views on right and wrong. Some African tribes may mutilate women through circumcision. Eskimos may leave a newborn out to die because they know there is not enough food for the rest of the group to survive the winter. Under a relativist's position just like subjectivists one, these moral acts passed down through acculturation cannot be regarded as morally wrong. Nor is there any measure to determine any moral values.

So, in reality, none of this equates to moral right and wrong it is all dictated by humans and is different to whatever individuals or groups of humans are influenced by. It could change at any time due to personal influences or survival needs and we as a western nation may be doing something we thought immoral due to changing circumstances in near future.

But the problem is we know this is not how morality works. We do protest that certain things are wrong despite cultural and individual differences and personal views. We do say that it is wrong for Eskimos to leave a child to die and for African women to be circumcised. We condemn it and contradict our own moral position. That just shows that there is something at work beyond us, outside us that works against relativity and subjectivity and shows how these positions cannot work in the real world.

All you are doing is trying to find some meaning to attach to morality but there is none because anything that originates from humans be it, individual or group present or passed down still has no independent measure of right and wrong. Any action can be justified as OK.
Yes, moral subjectivists are not moral objectivists. But since you don't care what moral subjectivists really think and don't want to find out, let's move on to the next step: If morals are objective, how do we find out what they are? Your "lived moral experience" argument holds no water, since moral subjectivists are as likely as moral objectivists to (in the words of that great moral philospher Jiminy Cricket) "let their conscience be their guide."
 
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Speedwell

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Yes, you cannot believe that your moral views can be universal because "they're your moral views". That would be like a Dictator.

There are different forms of relativity. The most known one is cultural relativity. This is where different cultures may have different moral views, beliefs. IE an African tribe believes in human sacrifice or cannibalism. Whereas a western culture like us will think that is wrong. The difference to individual subjectivism is that relative moral values may underpin the entire culture. There could be two different cultures living within the same borders with different cultural moral judgments.

It's not really a belief that your morals should be for everyone because if you understand them you would realize they are only your opinion. Even if the society happened to converge with their moral values, that doesn't mean that everyone has to view them as right for them.

There is really no independent reason to believe that societies' or a group's moral values are the right ones. We have seen plenty of examples of how society thought they were morally right but were wrong.

No, the problem is objective morality is not your or any human's morality. It is like saying that the objective fact the earth is round is not yours or anyone's view. It is round because it is really round independent of anyone's opinion.
So if these objective moral values you are touting actually exist, what good are they? Where are they? What are they?
 
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Ken-1122

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If you don't need evidence to convince yourself of something, then you're going to just believe whatever suits your fancy.
I'm not saying nothing I believe requires evidence, just not everything. Some things require empirical evidence before I can believe it, other things (like my car starting in the morning) a reasonable assumption is all that is needed.
Reason deals in facts. You looked up the word "reasonable", now go study what "reason" is.
The reason i looked up the word "reasonable" is because that is the term I used. Remember; a reasonable assumption that my car will start? I don't need to inspect the engine?
 
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Ken-1122

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Yes, you cannot believe that your moral views can be universal because "they're your moral views". That would be like a Dictator.
No; it has nothing to do with being a dictator, the reason I don't believe my moral views are universal is because a quick look at the real world I will see nobody is following my moral views.

No, the problem is objective morality is not your or any human's morality. It is like saying that the objective fact the earth is round is not yours or anyone's view. It is round because it is really round independent of anyone's opinion.
If it is not a human morality, and nobody knows what it is, how do you know it even exists? Better yet, how is it different than that which doesn't exist?
 
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Kylie

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OK, I am only questioning things as it is an important distinction for what we are talking about which is subjective morality (personal opinions) and objective morality (moral truths). So can you see why I would make something of this and how important that small distinction is? But if you say that is not what you meant then I accept that.

But if someone did say to the person committing that act of hitting "You are right" or "you did the right thing" the person is making a "truth" statement and not a personal opinion. By adding the "I think" into the statement that completely changes it. IE "in my opinion, I think". Do you agree or disagree?

I disagree. Because once again you are quibbling over words.
 
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the iconoclast

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I have told you before to stop pestering me, I am not interested in talking to you.

Please excuse me. I guess I wouldnt try and debate a weak philosophy, and position like the one you have. The atheist position is weak.
 
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the iconoclast

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If I had done that to you, I have gone against my own standards. It just so happens your God’s standards mirror my own

Hey hey :)

Where do you get your morality from?

Nothing’s changed. What do you think I am ignoring?

You need to address the question.

Am I immoral? (.eg do you consider me immoral)

Give me more detail in your replies.

BTW I believe evil and good are social constructs as well. If I make an argument you find compelling for my moral standards, you should accept them. If I do not; you have no reason to accept my moral standard.

Ok.

So, in this scenario you believe good and evil are social constructs. In this scenerio I believe good and evil are social constructs.

If you or I make an argument either one finds compelling we should accept the standard. If either one cannot justify the reason for a standard, neither one has to accept the standard.

What is your argument?

How are you defining those terms?

Objective morality, in the simplest terms, is the belief that morality is universal, meaning that it isn't up for interpretation. Do you agree with this concept?

Moral absolutism is an ethical view that all actions are intrinsically right or wrong. Stealing, for instance, might be considered to be always immoral, even if done for the well-being of others, and even if it does in the end promote such a good. Do you agree with this concept?


Society has made it an authority.

How does a society reach the conclusion that stealing is wrong?

I feel wrong actions should be made illegal, and people punished if they commit the action because it has been made illegal.

Why must an imposition of a penalty be retribution for an offence?

Why do you feel the need to punish me?

Punishment is suffering. Why would you feel the need for me to suffer after I beat you up and stole your property?

Cheers
 
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Ken-1122

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Hey hey :)

Where do you get your morality from?
My thoughts.
You need to address the question.

Am I immoral? (.eg do you consider me immoral)

Give me more detail in your replies.
I would say that particular act you did was immoral. If such acts are typical of you, then I would assume you are immoral.
So, in this scenario you believe good and evil are social constructs. In this scenerio I believe good and evil are social constructs.

If you or I make an argument either one finds compelling we should accept the standard. If either one cannot justify the reason for a standard, neither one has to accept the standard.

What is your argument?
What you did was unfair.
Objective morality, in the simplest terms, is the belief that morality is universal, meaning that it isn't up for interpretation. Do you agree with this concept?
Yes; but I would like to add the only way it can’t be up for interpretation is because it has to be verifiable. If you can’t verify it, you can’t call it objective.
Moral absolutism is an ethical view that all actions are intrinsically right or wrong. Stealing, for instance, might be considered to be always immoral, even if done for the well-being of others, and even if it does in the end promote such a good. Do you agree with this concept?
No. I consider moral absolutism as the view that all moral views are equal and should be respected as such. However if you wish to discuss using your interpretation, I would be fine with that.
Why must an imposition of a penalty be retribution for an offense?

Why do you feel the need to punish me?

Punishment is suffering. Why would you feel the need for me to suffer after I beat you up and stole your property?

Cheers
There need to be consequences for your actions otherwise you might try it again.
 
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the iconoclast

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Ken's the one you injured.

Hey hey kylie :) love your new avatar.

Harm is bad, why?

Why is it bad for me to beat up Kenny and steal his property?


You tell me, you're the one who started talking about accountability.

You engaged me my dear.

What accountability would that be?

Give me some details?

What did you call me?

You quoted my words. I would assume the defeater of illogic wouldnt make a redundant statement.

Cheers
 
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