Where does morality come from?

[ToddNotTodd]

it's called in the Bible a "seared conscious" and is not a good thing.

In reality, it’s called “not being terrified of something that you have no reason to be terrified about”. And in terms of a healthy mental state, it’s the best.

again I attest to pascals wager.

I’d be wary of bringing up Pascal’s Wager, lest you incur the wrath of another member here.

Let’s talk instead about Todd’s Wager, which is actually representational of reality.

You have a roulette wheel that represents all describable after-death situations.

One slot on the wheel represents no afterlife at all. No matter what you do, when you die, you cease to exist. The other slots represent different afterlives. We presume that in at least some of these afterlives, there is some god that makes a decision about what happens to you.

So how many slots are on the wheel?

There’s no way to know.

We can put on the wheel any god that anyone has ever posited that isn’t impossible to exist.

But beyond that, a slot exists for any god that could exist. A god that could send you to eternal torture for believing in any religion perhaps. The number of slots would be so large as to be uncountable.

So, statistically speaking, presented with a wheel with an unknown, perhaps incalculably large, number of slots, the only logical bet is no bet at all, unless you have good evidence that a certain slot is the only actual slot on the wheel.

For an atheist such as myself, there’s no evidence that any slot is more likely to exist.

And for someone that does have a belief, there’s no way to verify this belief with 100% certainty.

You can appeal to faith, but that’s tantamount to making a blind bet. You still don’t know how many slots there are on the wheel, or what each slot represents.

so basically you have a higher chance of success statistically speaking,

becoming a christian, than not being a christian.

don't you want to succeed?

Don’t you want to use statistics correctly?

 

[cvanwey]

I have another very important question to ask of everyone.

I am a firm believer in God and believe that morality is certainly derived from Him and Him alone... that being said, however, I'm wondering how a person would debate this with someone like an Atheist? Atheists do not believe in God, so telling them that morality comes from God would probably not be all that convincing.

If morality comes from God and God only, then there would obviously be no other answer to tell anyone who was asking since the truth is objective and not just some kind of malleable or subjective reality. But, even still, how would someone discuss this point with an Atheist who clearly does not believe in God and seems highly unlikely to cave in to the idea?

Well, me being a skeptic, the answer (for me) is quite simple...

Demonstrate the mere existence of your asserted God, to start with... And if/when you do, then, and only then, will I tell you this...

It does not matter if my views on morality differ from God; especially if I felt my position was 'justified', and my intent was 'pure.' God would have His opinion, as I would have mine. The difference being, that God would have the power to punish me for not agreeing with Him; if He so chooses. In such a case, God may then be demonstrated as a 'moral thug.' For example, 1 Timothy 2:11-12 for instance...

At the end of the day, you might conclude, that even if your preferred belief system were true, it would be quite difficult to demonstrate 'absolute morality.'

 

[Kylie]

it's called in the Bible a "seared conscious" and is not a good thing. For example when you lose the ability to feel emotions you lose the protective ability emotions provide. For example fearing crashing at a red light, will cause you to honor the traffic lighting systems in the US for example. But I can attest that some day, those fears and worries, will come back. But it will be too late.

again I attest to pascals wager.

if you don't believe in God and sin, and God sends you to hell for eternity due to not having forgiveness of sins.

then that is one option.

if God does not exist, then we die and nothing happens, that is another option

however

we are not saved by works, so an athiest doing good deeds is not good enough

so basically you have a higher chance of success statistically speaking,

becoming a christian, than not being a christian.

don't you want to succeed?

Because God will reward a person who only believes for selfish reasons and will punish a person who strives to be good and has honest disbelief.

Or do you think God will be fooled, or that he doesn't care if you are good or bad, he just wants you to worship him, even if it is insincere?

 

[createdtoworship]

Because God will reward a person who only believes for selfish reasons and will punish a person who strives to be good and has honest disbelief.

Or do you think God will be fooled, or that he doesn't care if you are good or bad, he just wants you to worship him, even if it is insincere?

again I proved God existence empiracally in another thread, I am sure you have heard the arguments, so is it truly an honest disbelief? Secondly, is being selfish and accepting a salvation selfishly, in order to become a truly loving and caring person, really selfish? Thirdly is your striving to be Good going to be accepted by God? Watch this video:

 

[createdtoworship]

In reality, it’s called “not being terrified of something that you have no reason to be terrified about”. And in terms of a healthy mental state, it’s the best.



I’d be wary of bringing up Pascal’s Wager, lest you incur the wrath of another member here.

Let’s talk instead about Todd’s Wager, which is actually representational of reality.

You have a roulette wheel that represents all describable after-death situations.

One slot on the wheel represents no afterlife at all. No matter what you do, when you die, you cease to exist. The other slots represent different afterlives. We presume that in at least some of these afterlives, there is some god that makes a decision about what happens to you.

So how many slots are on the wheel?

There’s no way to know.

We can put on the wheel any god that anyone has ever posited that isn’t impossible to exist.

But beyond that, a slot exists for any god that could exist. A god that could send you to eternal torture for believing in any religion perhaps. The number of slots would be so large as to be uncountable.

So, statistically speaking, presented with a wheel with an unknown, perhaps incalculably large, number of slots, the only logical bet is no bet at all, unless you have good evidence that a certain slot is the only actual slot on the wheel.

For an atheist such as myself, there’s no evidence that any slot is more likely to exist.

And for someone that does have a belief, there’s no way to verify this belief with 100% certainty.

You can appeal to faith, but that’s tantamount to making a blind bet. You still don’t know how many slots there are on the wheel, or what each slot represents.



Don’t you want to use statistics correctly?

so I didn't read your post because it was insulting in the few lines I read. However as of right now I have not seen you defeat the logic of pascals wager. The only refutation i have heard online is that of the athiests wager, which says if they live a moral life that they will hedge their bets. And that may be true if we were saved by our rightousness. But again if you think that is the case, watch this video:

 

[Ken-1122]

However as of right now I have not seen you defeat the logic of pascals wager. The only refutation i have heard online is that of the athiests wager, which says if they live a moral life that they will hedge their bets.

My problem with Pascal's wager is, rather than assuming only one of us could be wrong, suppose we are both wrong; that God does exist but you are worshipping the wrong one, and this real God keeps getting madder and madder each time you ignore him and pray to your fake one? I'd rather not pray at all.

 

[createdtoworship]

My problem with Pascal's wager is, rather than assuming only one of us could be wrong, suppose we are both wrong; that God does exist but you are worshipping the wrong one, and this real God keeps getting madder and madder each time you ignore him and pray to your fake one? I'd rather not pray at all.

say I make up a story that a dragon in space hates humanity and will kill them eternally in fire if they dont' go to the buddhist temple. And then you say, I don't believe in God, or Gods at all. Well logically if you were hedging your bets you would go to the buddhist temple, right? That is just logical. You are being safe that way. To simply say they are wrong is not enough. Because they could be right. And you wouldn't know. So pascals wager is simply this. Hell which is the harshest punishment I have heard from any religion, world religion, cult or christian cult (all put together), Hell is the worst I have heard. My concern would be hedging your bets against Hell. Logically it could be wrong or right. But if you want to hedge your bets, you will be safe, and do what is required to escape hell. That is just statistically speaking, if you want to secure your future, you will do whatever it takes to make sure your future is not in eternal misery. I mean, what if you are wrong, and you burn in hell, alive, and conscious, for eternity? Will that be cool with you, or will you wish you hedged your bets?

 

[Skreeper]

again I proved God existence empiracally in another thread, I am sure you have heard the arguments, so is it truly an honest disbelief?

Keep telling yourself that. Maybe someday you will actually convince someone that it's true.

 

[Skreeper]

I mean, what if you are wrong, and you burn in hell, alive, and conscious, for eternity? Will that be cool with you, or will you wish you hedged your bets?

I'll sleep through it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Add empirical to the list of words grady doesn't know. ("prove" is already in that list.)

 

[ToddNotTodd]

so I didn't read your post because it was insulting in the few lines I read. However as of right now I have not seen you defeat the logic of pascals wager.

I have the sneaking suspicion you did read my post and don't have an answer for it.

Which is fine, I wasn't posting this for your benefit. Just know that other people on the fence will read my post and know that in terms of "wagering", it doesn't make any sense to take any position without a good reason outside of the wager itself, making your post about Pascal's Wager unconvincing in any way.

 

[createdtoworship]

Keep telling yourself that. Maybe someday you will actually convince someone that it's true.

by all means I would love to debate you on it. Do you accept the challenge? IF not, then by all means stop complaining.

 

[createdtoworship]

I have the sneaking suspicion you did read my post and don't have an answer for it.

Which is fine, I wasn't posting this for your benefit. Just know that other people on the fence will read my post and know that in terms of "wagering", it doesn't make any sense to take any position without a good reason outside of the wager itself, making your post about Pascal's Wager unconvincing in any way.

sir, I have never seen pascals wager refuted, so if you have a way to refute it by all means tell us. Most likely you attested to being a moral athiest, but as the video's prove, that won't work. So you got any thing else? I didn't think so. That is why I didnt' bother reading it. I know for a fact you cannot refute it.

 

[createdtoworship]

Add empirical to the list of words grady doesn't know. ("prove" is already in that list.)

for someone who pops into debates, gets refuted, and runs away. Your posts don't seem to add much to the conversation. I seem to see you hardly ever defend your position. You post a comment and as soon at it gets tough, your out. So I am sorry if I don't view your posts as a threat in any way to the conversation,

 

[Tinker Grey]

for someone who pops into debates, gets refuted, and runs away

If I've been refuted, it hasn't been by you.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

sir, I have never seen pascals wager refuted, so if you have a way to refute it by all means tell us. Most likely you attested to being a moral athiest, but as the video's prove, that won't work. So you got any thing else? I didn't think so. That is why I didnt' bother reading it. I know for a fact you cannot refute it.

I realize that sticking one's head in the sand is something that Christians often do to avoid hard questions. I even heard a radio preacher imply that Christians were to run from knowledge outside of the Bible.

But not replying to my post isn't going to make your site look good. It's just going to make you look unable to answer questions. Which will lead people away from your religion.

I've presented the only "wager" that means anything. You don't have to read it. Others will.

 

[Skreeper]

by all means I would love to debate you on it. Do you accept the challenge? IF not, then by all means stop complaining.

No, I'm not in the business of wasting my time. I've read enough of your posts on this site to know that you've got nothing new to offer.

 

[Ken-1122]

say I make up a story that a dragon in space hates humanity and will kill them eternally in fire if they dont' go to the buddhist temple. And then you say, I don't believe in God, or Gods at all. Well logically if you were hedging your bets you would go to the buddhist temple, right? That is just logical. You are being safe that way. To simply say they are wrong is not enough. Because they could be right. And you wouldn't know. So pascals wager is simply this. Hell which is the harshest punishment I have heard from any religion, world religion, cult or christian cult (all put together), Hell is the worst I have heard. My concern would be hedging your bets against Hell. Logically it could be wrong or right. But if you want to hedge your bets, you will be safe, and do what is required to escape hell. That is just statistically speaking, if you want to secure your future, you will do whatever it takes to make sure your future is not in eternal misery. I mean, what if you are wrong, and you burn in hell, alive, and conscious, for eternity? Will that be cool with you, or will you wish you hedged your bets?

How do you hedge your bets if the real God gets madder and madder each time you pick the wrong one? Each God threatens hell if you don't follow them, so how do you choose? I'd rather not choose at all.

 

[gaara4158]

Add empirical to the list of words grady doesn't know. ("prove" is already in that list.)

And he can't even spell it.

 

[Yennora]

Holo Can I ask you? Why do you no longer believe in Jesus? I ask because I found you in a thread that had come up to a query I had made on whether or not we would remember those we hurt if we end up in Hell(unrepentant) - In the now closed thread, "Do we need to repent of all of our sins?" I am struggling with my faith and got the most from your posts. Ugh. You can't help me. I have been searching a long time for answers and I think I am at the point of realizing I am not one of "The Elect" going to Heaven.(One of the truly saved) This is devastating because I have nothing but Jesus right now and I just do not see myself readapting as an Atheist or Agnostic. I am truly in a precarious place to say the least. I actually joined this forum just to ask you why you are no longer a Christian as your profile now states... because I got the most from YOUR posts when you WERE still a Christian. You seemed to really have that relationship with God through Jesus down. I hope you do not mind my asking you this here in this thread.

***On Topic. I personally have never seen adults more compassionate. I have seen children more compassionate. I have seen adults - even my very own parents as cold, hateful, able to remove themselves completely from compassion when seeing someone in desperate need. In fact, I have seen adults walk all over and KICK those in need and at their very worst.

I see life as utterly Dark and horrible right now. I will go so far as to share that I have suffered trauma repetitively since birth and I am nearing half a century. I am completely sober. I do not self medicate for this suffering and... I am at the point of giving up the battle and throwing in the towel.

I hope you will be able to get out of it healthy.

I remember back in October 2016 when I was on the edge of Atheism and I nearly fell in total depression. My study performance was falling, I started looking pale and I broke down many times and cried hard. It was the worst period in my life (It mattered to me because I was an horrible person before coming to know Christ, so the idea that God changed me and made me clean and then I leave it all and return back to my usual life tasted like death to me, I would rather die). I'm still traumatic to it sometimes. I try to avoid a particular perfume and music that remind me of those times. I didn't come out of it the same person. Now, I'm different. As a current Christian and someone who managed to find his way back. I can tell you that the best thing you can do is to pray really hard, try to cry if you can, and try to wait. Pray and wait. Waiting is critical, try to give God a chance to guide you.

Also express your emotions and feelings towards God to the full, say everything you need to say in prayer, try to remind yourself of your relationship with God and every single time you felt his presence, talk it all to him in prayer. You know what we humans do when we want to show someone we love that they matter and that we don't want to leave them? Do it with God.

You are in an extremely painful phase now. Just reading your post was enough for my heartbeats to be troubled as I know how destructive this phase is.