Where does morality come from?

[Kylie]

that is the classic fallacy of the cart before the horse. God created them perfect, and with a free will to be imperfect. They chose to not be perfect.

That suggests that choosing imperfection is the perfect choice.

Or are you suggesting that a perfect being could make an imperfect choice?

 

[Ken-1122]

that is the classic fallacy of the cart before the horse. God created them perfect, and with a free will to be imperfect. They chose to not be perfect.

No, a perfect person would never choose to do the wrong thing. The fact that they did shows they were never perfect.

 

[Ken-1122]

God gave man a free will to chose to do evil in a way that animals don't have, according to the Bible.

Again; that's not what I asked. Did God give man the ABILITY to hate beyond what animals are capable of! C'mon answer my question and quit making stuff up.

the existence of mirages is common knowledge, one cannot prove they exist without using and having faith in external sources,

No; Mirages are visual illusions that can be proven objectively. Care to try again?

there are no numbers in your example? If there are no numerical values, then there would be no math.

No; numbers do not equal math. Just because a statement has numbers in it does not mean the statement is about math. C'mon you're better than this!

my argument fails if killing hundreds is equivalent to killing millions. and you cannot prove that. So my point stands.

You never said anything about hundreds vs millions, you said murderous dictators of today are attacked, I gave you an example of one who was not, and now you are trying to say it doesn't count if it isn't millions that he killed. That's called "changing the goal posts" care to try again?

 

[createdtoworship]

That suggests that choosing imperfection is the perfect choice.

Or are you suggesting that a perfect being could make an imperfect choice?

a perfect being can make an imperfect choice. Because a perfect being has a free will to do right or wrong. God for instance can lie, or cheat or steal. But He would cease from being God at that moment, I believe and cease from being perfect. The same with us, we were created perfect, and part of that perfection was a choice to do right or wrong. As why would a being be perfect, if they never chose to be? So yes free will is still perfect, but it is what they do with their free will that mattered.

 

[createdtoworship]

Obviously intelligence has something to do with it, since it takes some intelligence to recognize other beings as being sentient and so forth.

But nobody is arguing that there's a linear relationship between intelligence and compassion.

so you admit that you are using flawed logic. You say that intelligence has something to do with it, then backpeddle and say it's not linear, even when you just applied it in a linear fashion. So I will apply it as you have applied it, in a linear fashion. Secondly, you use arguments that rely on the fact that love evolved due to increases in intelligence between humans and say apes. However I have proven that there is no evidence that IQ increases love. If anything more intelligent people have more mood disorders, which equates to being less patient with those of less intelligence. Check this article for that reference: Bad News for the Highly Intelligent

 

[createdtoworship]

Again; that's not what I asked. Did God give man the ABILITY to hate beyond what animals are capable of! C'mon answer my question and quit making stuff up.

No God did not give that ability, because it's not an ability at all. Hate is a lack of ability. So God did not give mankind a negative ability, which is no ability at all.

No; Mirages are visual illusions that can be proven objectively. Care to try again?

go ahead and give your best evidence for mirages. Again, you just said you can prove they exist. So by all means, proving something means doing the studies yourself and not having faith in someone elses work, that can be tainted, falsified or otherwise wrong. So when you do those studies and publish them in a peer review. I can reject them because they were not done by myself, and seeing I don't trust people to do proper work, I would have to do the studies myself. But then it self defeats publishing it in peer review, because no one else can or should trust my efforts, because I am a creationist and may be biased. So again, I don't think you can prove any of that.

No; numbers do not equal math. Just because a statement has numbers in it does not mean the statement is about math. C'mon you're better than this!

funny how when I look up real numbers on wikipedia, that the first statement says "in mathmatics" Real number - Wikipedia

You never said anything about hundreds vs millions, you said murderous dictators of today are attacked, I gave you an example of one who was not, and now you are trying to say it doesn't count if it isn't millions that he killed. That's called "changing the goal posts" care to try again?

no you said that killing hundreds made him equal with a person that killed millions. But did not prove that assertion. So as soon as you prove that assertion we can move on, as you seem to be having a problem with mathmatics in the last few posts.

 

[holo]

so you admit that you are using flawed logic. You say that intelligence has something to do with it, then backpeddle and say it's not linear, even when you just applied it in a linear fashion. So I will apply it as you have applied it, in a linear fashion. Secondly, you use arguments that rely on the fact that love evolved due to increases in intelligence between humans and say apes. However I have proven that there is no evidence that IQ increases love. If anything more intelligent people have more mood disorders, which equates to being less patient with those of less intelligence. Check this article for that reference: Bad News for the Highly Intelligent

What!?

I've never said there's a linear relationship between intelligence and compassion. I'm saying the two have something to do with each another. It's not complicated. Compare it to having lots of money and driving a pretty modern car. Generally speaking there is obviously a relationship there, but it's not linear. Money and cars are connected, but that doesn't mean if I have 15% more money than you, my car will be 15% nicer.

And sure, higher intelligence comes with pros and cons, that's common knowledge. Just like there's a link between creativity and mood disorders: if you're very creative you're more likely to have bipolar disorder, and vice versa.

 

[Kylie]

a perfect being can make an imperfect choice. Because a perfect being has a free will to do right or wrong. God for instance can lie, or cheat or steal. But He would cease from being God at that moment, I believe and cease from being perfect. The same with us, we were created perfect, and part of that perfection was a choice to do right or wrong. As why would a being be perfect, if they never chose to be? So yes free will is still perfect, but it is what they do with their free will that mattered.

I don't see how this follows.

If a being is perfect, then whenever it is faced with a choice, it will make a perfect choice. Choosing to do something that will destroy its perfection can't possibly be a perfect choice.

 

[Ken-1122]

No God did not give that ability, because it's not an ability at all. Hate is a lack of ability. So God did not give mankind a negative ability, which is no ability at all.

No, a lack of love or a lack of hate would be the neutral position; not good nor bad. Hate is to assert negative behavior.

go ahead and give your best evidence for mirages. Again, you just said you can prove they exist. So by all means, proving something means doing the studies yourself and not having faith in someone elses work, that can be tainted, falsified or otherwise wrong.

A mirage is the bending of light. Anyone who knows how light works understands this. Your ignorance does not prove you right.

funny how when I look up real numbers on wikipedia, that the first statement says "in mathmatics" Real number - Wikipedia

The tempature of boiling water does not fit into the category of a real number; according to the link you provided

no you said that killing hundreds made him equal with a person that killed millions. But did not prove that assertion. So as soon as you prove that assertion we can move on, as you seem to be having a problem with mathmatics in the last few posts.

Which post number did I say this?

 

[createdtoworship]

What!?

I've never said there's a linear relationship between intelligence and compassion. I'm saying the two have something to do with each another. It's not complicated. Compare it to having lots of money and driving a pretty modern car. Generally speaking there is obviously a relationship there, but it's not linear. Money and cars are connected, but that doesn't mean if I have 15% more money than you, my car will be 15% nicer.

And sure, higher intelligence comes with pros and cons, that's common knowledge. Just like there's a link between creativity and mood disorders: if you're very creative you're more likely to have bipolar disorder, and vice versa.

linear according to websters means "relating to, based on, resembling."

then you say "the two have something to do with each other."

so they are related, and according to websters, that is the same as a linear relationship.

so again, you say it's not linear then apply it in a linear fashion.

so this is what I was talking about.

as far as the relationship of money and cars it is linear.

most people with dual incomes have nicer cars than those who don't have dual family incomes. As far a new car purchases, most of them again come from dual income homes, while used car purchases dominate single income homes.

the only reason why your illustration was not linear is because 100% of the income does not go to the car. So that is why the 15% increase in income does not relate to a 15% nicer car. But higher incomes do relate to nicer cars, so that was a considerably biased sample you mentioned that misrepresented wealth and car purchases.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, a lack of love or a lack of hate would be the neutral position; not good nor bad. Hate is to assert negative behavior.

do you honestly believe if you don't love someone, that you are neutral toward them? Say a girl loves you and she wants to marry you and she asks? Do you love me? And you say, I am neutral. Do you think she will be happy? Or feel rejected? The love she has has not been reciprocated. In essence not loving her is the same as hating her. because in that situation hating someone and not loving them have the same affect. Does that make sense? When we say we don't love someone, we are saying that we love ourself more and hate them. When we don't love our enemies, we are saying we love ourselves more than our enemies, and in essence hate them. When we love our enemies more than ourselves, we are loving them and hating ourselves, love is the opposite of selfishness. Love of others is self hatred. Hating others is the opposite of love.

A mirage is the bending of light. Anyone who knows how light works understands this. Your ignorance does not prove you right.

again you are using external sources to define it. Have you personally studied a mirage and found out that it is in fact true that it bends light? Or are you having faith in other people who have studied this? I presume the later. And this is not proof.

The tempature of boiling water does not fit into the category of a real number; according to the link you provided

I think you should probably look up the definition of real number before talking more on this.


Which post number did I say this?[/QUOTE]

 

[holo]

linear according to websters means "relating to, based on, resembling."

then you say "the two have something to do with each other."

so they are related, and according to websters, that is the same as a linear relationship.

OK, I guess I used the term wrong then. What I meant by linear is when two things are directly tied together so that an increase in A necessarily increases B by the same amount.

 

[Moral Orel]

linear according to websters means "relating to, based on, resembling."

Definition of "Linear" according to Webster's

of, relating to, resembling, or having a graph that is a line and especially a straight line

of, relating to, based on, or being linear equations, linear differential equations, linear functions, linear transformations, or linear algebra

You can't just cut definitions off wherever you please. Let me parse those sentences for you:

Relating to a graph that is a line and especially a straight line;
or resembling a graph that is a line and especially a straight line;
or having a graph that is a line and especially a straight line.

Relating to linear equations, linear differential equations, linear functions, linear transformations, or linear algebra;
or based on linear equations, linear differential equations, linear functions, linear transformations, or linear algebra;
or being linear equations, linear differential equations, linear functions, linear transformations, or linear algebra.

OK, I guess I used the term wrong then. What I meant by linear is when two things are directly tied together so that an increase in A necessarily increases B by the same amount.

No, you didn't use it wrong.

 

[createdtoworship]

OK, I guess I used the term wrong then. What I meant by linear is when two things are directly tied together so that an increase in A necessarily increases B by the same amount.

that would be an unusual situation. Normally a linear relationship is like say for example you have 0-100% which indexes 4-20mA, so 50% would be 12mA, 75% would be 16mA and 25% would be 8mA. That is a linear relationship, even if 1 does not equate to 1 on the other. For example 1mA on one scale is not the same a 1% of the other scale. They are still linear however. But to say that an increase in A increases B by the same amount exactly is sort of rare. But this doesn't help your argument, because you said that compassion and intelligence are related. To prove this assertion, you would have to prove for example that someone with 10 IQ points higher, is more loving that someone with 10 IQ points lower to prove your point that intelligence is related to compassion. I just provided an example. But there is no evidence that I am aware of that proves that assertion, so really it should be tossed out. And the question still lies, why do humans have more sacrificial love than animals?

 

[createdtoworship]

Definition of "Linear" according to Webster's

of, relating to, resembling, or having a graph that is a line and especially a straight line

of, relating to, based on, or being linear equations, linear differential equations, linear functions, linear transformations, or linear algebra

You can't just cut definitions off wherever you please. Let me parse those sentences for you:

Relating to a graph that is a line and especially a straight line;
or resembling a graph that is a line and especially a straight line;
or having a graph that is a line and especially a straight line.

Relating to linear equations, linear differential equations, linear functions, linear transformations, or linear algebra;
or based on linear equations, linear differential equations, linear functions, linear transformations, or linear algebra;
or being linear equations, linear differential equations, linear functions, linear transformations, or linear algebra.


No, you didn't use it wrong.

sorry sir I am not addressing your posts anymore, you may have valid points here, I suggest messaging them to someone else, so that they can be addressed. That is if you are serious about having an open dialogue with me, and not just trying to sabotage things I say because you hate christianity.

 

[Ken-1122]

do you honestly believe if you don't love someone, that you are neutral toward them? Say a girl loves you and she wants to marry you and she asks? Do you love me? And you say, I am neutral. Do you think she will be happy? Or feel rejected? The love she has has not been reciprocated.

Of course she will be upset, but just because you don’t love her does not mean you hate her.

In essence not loving her is the same as hating her. because in that situation hating someone and not loving them have the same affect. Does that make sense?

No. Just because you don’t want to marry someone does not mean you want to kill them.

When we say we don't love someone, we are saying that we love ourself more and hate them. When we don't love our enemies, we are saying we love ourselves more than our enemies, and in essence hate them.

It is possible to hate yourself and hate your enemies.

When we love our enemies more than ourselves, we are loving them and hating ourselves, love is the opposite of selfishness. Love of others is self hatred. Hating others is the opposite of love.

Love is to assert an emotional feeling, hate is to assert the opposite emotional feeling. To assert no feeling at all is natural

again you are using external sources to define it. Have you personally studied a mirage and found out that it is in fact true that it bends light? Or are you having faith in other people who have studied this? I presume the later. And this is not proof.

Whether the peer reviewed study comes from me or someone else, it is still proof. If you disagree feel free to prove it wrong; otherwise don’t expect someone else to take your word that it is false.

I think you should probably look up the definition of real number before talking more on this.

I did. There is no calculation done concerning the temperature water boils thus it is not math. Your argument failed.

 

[Moral Orel]

sorry sir I am not addressing your posts anymore, you may have valid points here, I suggest messaging them to someone else, so that they can be addressed. That is if you are serious about having an open dialogue with me, and not just trying to sabotage things I say because you hate christianity.

LOL You know it ain't cause I hate Christianity. How are those results to that challenge you asked me to give you going? It's been a couple days now, are you seeing that all us dirty atheists get along just fine with the other Christians?

 

[holo]

that would be an unusual situation. Normally a linear relationship is like say for example you have 0-100% which indexes 4-20mA, so 50% would be 12mA, 75% would be 16mA and 25% would be 8mA. That is a linear relationship, even if 1 does not equate to 1 on the other. For example 1mA on one scale is not the same a 1% of the other scale. They are still linear however. But to say that an increase in A increases B by the same amount exactly is sort of rare. But this doesn't help your argument, because you said that compassion and intelligence are related. To prove this assertion, you would have to prove for example that someone with 10 IQ points higher, is more loving that someone with 10 IQ points lower to prove your point that intelligence is related to compassion. I just provided an example. But there is no evidence that I am aware of that proves that assertion, so really it should be tossed out. And the question still lies, why do humans have more sacrificial love than animals?

I can't prove that X amount of intelligence leads to Y amount of compassion. I mean I guess I could find some scientific paper on it, and then we could argue forever about whether it's actually possible to prove anything but mathematics or whatever. But to me it appears to be self-evident that a grown human has a more sophisticated capacity for compassion and moral judgments (like the trolley problem) than a chimpanzee or a small child, and that it is directly connected to mental faculties like empathy, intelligence etc. And like I said before, that explains why humans have a stronger tendency for sacrificial love.

 

[createdtoworship]

Of course she will be upset, but just because you don’t love her does not mean you hate her.

from your perspective it's not hate, but it is from hers.

No. Just because you don’t want to marry someone does not mean you want to kill them.

but hating does not mean physically manifesting that in anger, you can hate someone and not manifest it.

It is possible to hate yourself and hate your enemies.

I don't disagree with this. But when you hate yourself out of love for others, it is not possible to hate them while hating yourself.

Love is to assert an emotional feeling, hate is to assert the opposite emotional feeling. To assert no feeling at all is natural

like I said before, from your perspective you are neutral, but not from others perspectives. One guage on if we are loving correctly is if the audience of your love notices it. If they don't notice your neutrality, then most likely it is not truly neutral. And I go one step further, I would tend to believe that what we view as neutral is not really neutral when seen from the outside. I don't feel we have a very innate ability to be neutral on most topics. We say we are, but when prodded on relevant topics about such subjects we tend to reveal we are not neutral.

Whether the peer reviewed study comes from me or someone else, it is still proof. If you disagree feel free to prove it wrong; otherwise don’t expect someone else to take your word that it is false.

sorry to break it to you, peer reviews are not proof. Scientific consensus is not proof. While they may build on your evidence. Scientists a few hundred years ago universally believed in God, and even the majority today (51% or so), believe in the existence of God. Does that mean He exists? You would rightly claim that that is an appeal to the populus, which has not truth value. What the majority believe, does not make it true. Evidence and more specifically proof, makes it true.

I did. There is no calculation done concerning the temperature water boils thus it is not math. Your argument failed.

wait, in your last post you said that temperature does not deal with real numbers. Lets talk about that, did you look it up and realize that this statement is wrong? It's ok. I won't harp on you. But yes temperature deals with mathmatical concepts, even though there is no arithmatic involved. It uses real numbers, which is within the scope of a mathmatics class.

 

[Kylie]

from your perspective it's not hate, but it is from hers.

No. If Person A does not love Person B and Person B wants Person A to love them, that does not mean Person A hates Person B.