Where does morality come from?

[createdtoworship]

And it's worse if you have to listen to terrible drum music while you are burning.

Ouchyland is worse than Hell.

Even if you were right, Ouchyland is just as bad as hell, but Happyville is better than Heaven, so it still makes more sense to believe in Lord Raznar.

I refuted your drums already. For one if your eardrums are burning in fire, I doubt you are worried about drums. Secondly other people screaming, and even your own screams would be much louder. My phrase is still valid: if you are burning alive in fire, screaming your head off, do you really care what music is playing? So you really can't get past the concept that if your eardrums are literally on fire, I doubt you are worried about loud noise.

I have refuted drums, needles, being drawn and quartered, being pricked with needles, being stabbed in Hell, all of those things would not actually cause more pain. Fire is really the only thing that can for sure cause 100% of pain receptors to activate, and depending on the temperature, it could happen instantly. Even a chemical subversion in acid, would take many more seconds to burn through and saturate the skin. Fire is much quicker, depending on temperature of course.

secondly, these are all hypotheticals and no one actually views them as a religious viewpoint. So it technically is disqualified anyway.

lastly, your version of hell is so similiar to the real hell that it is nearly impossible to distinguish. And if it was really a religious view, I would say that it stole it's idea of hell from the real account. Seeing this account has thousands of years of documented history behind it. So this is really just stealing a religions concept from another religion.

if you wish to really prove your point, you will use an entirely different concept, not piggy back on existing religions. It will hold a lot more water that way.

so seeing I have refuted your ouchi land in a variety of ways, the logic of pascals wager is solid logic, unrefuted.

your welcome to try other examples if you wish.

but thanks for the debate, however I feel you have exhausted all examples that could possibly be imagined that would be worse than hell, but they are all arbitrary. So if you can find an example that would not be redundant, or arbitrary that would add to the punishment of hell, let me know. For now I assume this refuted until further notice.

 

[gaara4158]

you didn't adress pascals wager at all in this post, so like I said if you have facts to actually refute it, let me know.

I addressed Pascal’s wager in the previous posts which you refused to address, but because you have a goldfish’s memory, here’s the killer again:

A threat’s weight comes not from the intensity of the threat, but rather its credibility. Here’s your proof: I promise you I will drop a nuclear bomb on your house unless you leave Christianforums forever. Additionally, if you leave forever, I will give you ten billion dollars.

If you ever use this website again, you concede the point that credibility is more important than intensity when it comes to threats. You have no reason to think I have nuclear capabilities or billions of dollars. Attempting to establish credibility by appealing to the intensity of the threat is putting the cart before the horse, and unfortunately that’s exactly what you’re doing.

 

[Ken-1122]

I am busy, but if you repost, or link to your post, I would love to challenge you to a debate on pascals wager.

it's solid logic based on statistics.

Pascal's Wager says if you're right I will burn in Hell, and you go to Heaven. If I'm right, nothing happens to either of us so I might as well take my chances and assume you are right.

My rebuttal went something like this:
What if we are both wrong; that God does exist, but you are praying to the wrong one, and the real God keeps getting madder and madder each time you ignore him and pray to your fake one? I'd rather not pray at all!

 

[Kylie]

I refuted your drums already. For one if your eardrums are burning in fire, I doubt you are worried about drums. Secondly other people screaming, and even your own screams would be much louder. My phrase is still valid: if you are burning alive in fire, screaming your head off, do you really care what music is playing? So you really can't get past the concept that if your eardrums are literally on fire, I doubt you are worried about loud noise.

Ouchyland is set up so that no matter what other torture you are suffering, you can hear the drums perfectly and they bug the heck out of you.

I have refuted drums, needles, being drawn and quartered, being pricked with needles, being stabbed in Hell, all of those things would not actually cause more pain. Fire is really the only thing that can for sure cause 100% of pain receptors to activate, and depending on the temperature, it could happen instantly. Even a chemical subversion in acid, would take many more seconds to burn through and saturate the skin. Fire is much quicker, depending on temperature of course.

Of course, you are applying real life logic to Ouchyland, which is silly. You have to apply Ouchyland logic to it.

If we are to do as you say, then no one can suffer an eternal punishment in Hell, because they would burn to death very quickly.

secondly, these are all hypotheticals and no one actually views them as a religious viewpoint. So it technically is disqualified anyway.

So there's no such thing as a literal Hell or Heaven? Then why go with Pascal's wager?

lastly, your version of hell is so similiar to the real hell that it is nearly impossible to distinguish. And if it was really a religious view, I would say that it stole it's idea of hell from the real account. Seeing this account has thousands of years of documented history behind it. So this is really just stealing a religions concept from another religion.

It's easy to distinguish. Ouchyland is the one that always has an extra drum monkey.

if you wish to really prove your point, you will use an entirely different concept, not piggy back on existing religions. It will hold a lot more water that way.

I tried that with the Santa Claus and coal version, and you didn't like that. You complained it wasn't valid because it was so different.

so seeing I have refuted your ouchi land in a variety of ways, the logic of pascals wager is solid logic, unrefuted.

lol, if that makes you happy. I don't see anyone else agreeing with you though.

your welcome to try other examples if you wish.

And I'm sure you'll find some other way to claim it doesn't count.

but thanks for the debate, however I feel you have exhausted all examples that could possibly be imagined that would be worse than hell, but they are all arbitrary. So if you can find an example that would not be redundant, or arbitrary that would add to the punishment of hell, let me know. For now I assume this refuted until further notice.

I did. The Santa Claus one. But you just seem determined to find excuses rather than actually address the points raised.

 

[createdtoworship]

I addressed Pascal’s wager in the previous posts which you refused to address, but because you have a goldfish’s memory, here’s the killer again:

A threat’s weight comes not from the intensity of the threat, but rather its credibility. Here’s your proof: I promise you I will drop a nuclear bomb on your house unless you leave Christianforums forever. Additionally, if you leave forever, I will give you ten billion dollars.

If you ever use this website again, you concede the point that credibility is more important than intensity when it comes to threats. You have no reason to think I have nuclear capabilities or billions of dollars. Attempting to establish credibility by appealing to the intensity of the threat is putting the cart before the horse, and unfortunately that’s exactly what you’re doing.

This is just a red herring. Seeing you don't have any beliefs about the after life at all that you are willing to debate. I am sorry if I will take my chances hedging my bets with the unconfirmed, rather than absolutely nothing (what atheists and agnostics believe). Now that I have successfully refuted this concept, I will no more address it, as I am busy. However if you wish to place an alternative on the table, that you wish to confirm, then by all means do so. Or else this is just a red herring.

 

[Kylie]

Now that I have successfully refuted this concept, I will no more address it, as I am busy.

Except you haven't refuted the debunking of Pascal's Wager at all.

 

[createdtoworship]

Except you haven't refuted the debunking of Pascal's Wager at all.

I can repost whatever you wish, just post the premises that did not get addressed and I will look at them later.

 

[Kylie]

I can repost whatever you wish, just post the premises that did not get addressed and I will look at them later.

You haven't explained why Ouchyland isn't worse than Hell for a start.

 

[createdtoworship]

You haven't explained why Ouchyland isn't worse than Hell for a start.

well you provided no details that would be worse than burning alive. You merely said beating drums while they were burning, but I said that it would be arbitrary to have beating drums, if you eardrums were on fire. Case settled. Agreed? Unless you can find some sort of pain worse that being 100% burned alive. I doubt you can.

 

[Kylie]

well you provided no details that would be worse than burning alive. You merely said beating drums while they were burning, but I said that it would be arbitrary to have beating drums, if you eardrums were on fire. Case settled. Agreed? Unless you can find some sort of pain worse that being 100% burned alive. I doubt you can.

I made it quite clear.

Ouchyland is just as bad as Heaven, with the added torture of hearing banging drums all the time as well.

I honestly can't understand how you don't get that this makes Ouchyland worse. It's like if we were both making a donation to some charity, and I said I would match your donation, and add a hundred dollars to it. That guarantees that no matter how much you donate, my donation will always be $100 more. Likewise, Ouchyland can match whatever torture Hell has, PLUS it has drums banging in your ear.

You also have not explained why you think the addition of banging drums wouldn't make it worse. You gave some excuse about not caring since you'd be on fire, but this is assuming that the burning in Hell works the same as when you get burnt here on Earth - which obviously isn't the case since you don't get burnt to death in Hell.

 

[createdtoworship]

I made it quite clear.

Ouchyland is just as bad as Heaven, with the added torture of hearing banging drums all the time as well.

I honestly can't understand how you don't get that this makes Ouchyland worse. It's like if we were both making a donation to some charity, and I said I would match your donation, and add a hundred dollars to it. That guarantees that no matter how much you donate, my donation will always be $100 more. Likewise, Ouchyland can match whatever torture Hell has, PLUS it has drums banging in your ear.

You also have not explained why you think the addition of banging drums wouldn't make it worse. You gave some excuse about not caring since you'd be on fire, but this is assuming that the burning in Hell works the same as when you get burnt here on Earth - which obviously isn't the case since you don't get burnt to death in Hell.

sorry kylie, I know you were proud of that illustration and regardless of recieving a bunch of likes and retweets and reposts, it simply fails. All I need to do now is repost what I just said: well you provided no details that would be worse than burning alive. You merely said beating drums while they were burning, but I said that it would be arbitrary to have beating drums, if you eardrums were on fire. Case settled. Agreed? Unless you can find some sort of pain worse that being 100% burned alive.

(to the point, how can someone with burning ear drums which are at a 1000 degrees for example, care about a little noise?). More to the point: ear drums are special because they are little bones that vibrate on noise, and this is converted to sound in the brain, if you hear a loud enough sound your ears will pop with some bleeding. Again even if all this was to happen, how is a little blood more pain that actually all those pieces burning at 1000 degrees for example?

 

[Kylie]

sorry kylie, I know you were proud of that illustration and regardless of recieving a bunch of likes and retweets and reposts, it simply fails. All I need to do now is repost what I just said: well you provided no details that would be worse than burning alive. You merely said beating drums while they were burning, but I said that it would be arbitrary to have beating drums, if you eardrums were on fire. Case settled. Agreed? Unless you can find some sort of pain worse that being 100% burned alive.

Sure I can.

Being burned alive while being forced to listen to loud banging drums is worse than being burned alive with NO drums.

(to the point, how can someone with burning ear drums which are at a 1000 degrees for example, care about a little noise?). More to the point: ear drums are special because they are little bones that vibrate on noise, and this is converted to sound in the brain, if you hear a loud enough sound your ears will pop with some bleeding. Again even if all this was to happen, how is a little blood more pain that actually all those pieces burning at 1000 degrees for example?

Again, you are assuming that it all works the way you'd expect it to on Earth. But I have already proved that it can't possibly work that way, since if it did, the person would burn to death. Since people do NOT burn to death in Hell, obviously things work differently in Hell than they do on Earth. You have not responded to this, despite the fact I have brought it up at least three times now.

 

[createdtoworship]

Sure I can.

Being burned alive while being forced to listen to loud banging drums is worse than being burned alive with NO drums.



Again, you are assuming that it all works the way you'd expect it to on Earth. But I have already proved that it can't possibly work that way, since if it did, the person would burn to death. Since people do NOT burn to death in Hell, obviously things work differently in Hell than they do on Earth. You have not responded to this, despite the fact I have brought it up at least three times now.

even if they don't burn to death, how do you know for a fact that they are not severely burned. But that is beside the point. The actual sensation of being burned in 1000 degree heat would be unbearable if it was 100% of your body, again let me ask you....how does a beating of a drum make it any more painful that 100% pain? You can only have 100%. Secondly, say the drumming is not painful but an irritation, wouldn't that be worse than hell? Again say a million flies landed on you while in hell, yes it would be irritating but would it even matter if you are currently experiencing 100% pain sensation? Would you even feel it at all? I don't think so. But even if you could feel it (hypothetically), would the sensation overcome the 100% pain feeling? Again I don't think so. So I really don't feel you have a strong argument here, and notice no one is defending this position as it has been so completely dismantled.

 

[Kylie]

even if they don't burn to death, how do you know for a fact that they are not severely burned. But that is beside the point. The actual sensation of being burned in 1000 degree heat would be unbearable if it was 100% of your body, again let me ask you....how does a beating of a drum make it any more painful that 100% pain? You can only have 100%. Secondly, say the drumming is not painful but an irritation, wouldn't that be worse than hell? Again say a million flies landed on you while in hell, yes it would be irritating but would it even matter if you are currently experiencing 100% pain sensation? Would you even feel it at all? I don't think so. But even if you could feel it (hypothetically), would the sensation overcome the 100% pain feeling? Again I don't think so. So I really don't feel you have a strong argument here, and notice no one is defending this position as it has been so completely dismantled.

You seem insistent on applying logic to an illogical situation. We cannot have a discussion about this as long as you continue to do so.

 

[createdtoworship]

You seem insistent on applying logic to an illogical situation. We cannot have a discussion about this as long as you continue to do so.

I was waiting for you to admit to bring illogicality to your hypotheticals. See even in a hypothetical you can't make any rule you want to. You must still follow logic. For example in my hypothetical there are three men, in one way, and in another way there are two men. See that contradicts logically so it refutes my hypothetical. See in hypothesizing, your goal is to use logic to refute another principle. Basically the logic is, my situation is worse than yours. That dear maam, is logic. So in condemning logic, you also condemn your ability to make the argument to begin with.

 

[holo]

In Ouchyland you get extra pain receptors every day and since earthly logic doesn't apply, it's possible to experience 200℅ pain.

 

[Kylie]

I was waiting for you to admit to bring illogicality to your hypotheticals. See even in a hypothetical you can't make any rule you want to. You must still follow logic. For example in my hypothetical there are three men, in one way, and in another way there are two men. See that contradicts logically so it refutes my hypothetical. See in hypothesizing, your goal is to use logic to refute another principle. Basically the logic is, my situation is worse than yours. That dear maam, is logic. So in condemning logic, you also condemn your ability to make the argument to begin with.

Hang on...

You are talking about a place where people can live eternally - and while being constantly incinerated! And you think this ISN'T illogical?

 

[createdtoworship]

In Ouchyland you get extra pain receptors every day and since earthly logic doesn't apply, it's possible to experience 200℅ pain.

thanks for confirming your arguments have no logical validity. Hell is logically possible, in a parallel universe, or in a metaphysical realm. There is nothing that logically states it cannot exist. Yet in your comment, 200% pain is logically impossible.

 

[Speedwell]

What a bizarre and perverted conversation. My God is better than your God because my God imposes the more terrible eternal punishment on those who fail to perform the correct ritual behavior in this life than your God.

 

[createdtoworship]

Hang on...

You are talking about a place where people can live eternally - and while being constantly incinerated! And you think this ISN'T illogical?

it is logically possible to live eternally (if you exist in a dimension at a higher level than ours), and again "constant flame" is simply a reference to being outside of time while in hell. Nothing illogical about that. But your comments however were proven illogical. Now in your favor I have held a view that our bodies will live forever because of the fact our souls are massless and outside of time. However in a glorified state there is a type of flesh that is flesh, but is also glorified, in that it does not die. The only way that can happen is a hybrid type of flesh that is somehow not mass but that can manifest on demand and controlled by something external to the mass or the non mass. Sort of like how a ghost can go through walls in one aspect, and throw dishes in another aspect. ( I don't claim to have evidence of ghosts, but since we are talking hypotheticals, lets just say in a metaphysical realm it is possible for such beings to exist). While it seems to contradict, being in a higher dimension there no reason to think this cannot be possible due to the liberties of a higher dimension which are not visible in this dimension. When time is taken out of the equation there is more possibilities. But on the other hand even in the metaphysical realm, 2 plus 2 still equals 4. And logic still rules even within that realm. It's just that the laws of physics are not the same exactly as in our 4 dimensions. Quantum theory can explain that better than myself. So logic is not ruled out simply because of the metaphysical. Go to a quantum theorist and tell them that because they are dealing with more than four dimensions that they are illogical and see how far you get. So now that we ruled out the illogicality argument. Lets repost what I found illogical about your argument once again for the readers:

in relation to ouchiland which has a fate worse than hell, and has the addition of pounding drums in the ears of all the inhabitants making it worse....


The actual sensation of being burned in 1000 degree heat would be unbearable if it was 100% of your body, again let me ask you....how does a beating of a drum make it any more painful that 100% pain? You can only have 100%. Secondly, say the drumming is not painful but an irritation, wouldn't that be worse than hell? Again say a million flies landed on you while in hell, yes it would be irritating but would it even matter if you are currently experiencing 100% pain sensation? Would you even feel it at all? I don't think so. But even if you could feel it (hypothetically), would the sensation overcome the 100% pain feeling? Again I don't think so. So I really don't feel you have a strong argument here, and notice no one is defending this position as it has been so completely dismantled.