Where does morality come from?

[createdtoworship]

My point does not require that coal be equivalent to Hell. It just requires that there be reward and punishment for belief and non-belief. If it would help you understand the concept, I can substitute another deity, another reward and another punishment. Would you prefer that?

yes you would have to substitute. See coal does not equate to hell in any form, so it is equivocation to compare the two side by side. You can take each illustration on it's own and it becomes valid again, but when you use it as a comparison, each factor has to match up. For you to equate hell you must have a religion with an equal punishment of Hell. Something that has eternal conscious torture, for simply committing one sin within a life time. I doubt you can find one.

 

[gaara4158]

My point does not require that coal be equivalent to Hell. It just requires that there be reward and punishment for belief and non-belief. If it would help you understand the concept, I can substitute another deity, another reward and another punishment. Would you prefer that?

It won’t matter. He will always find some silver lining in whatever punishment you offer (while simultaneously denying any silver linings to the Biblical Hell) in order to maintain that there’s some fundamental difference in the reasoning between the two. He has defined the Biblical Hell a priori as the worst possible punishment and the Biblical Heaven as the greatest possible reward. What he fails to grasp is that for Pascal’s wager to work, the threat of punishment and promise of reward need to be credible, not just ultimate. I could threaten to burn his house down unless he posts a video online of himself making love to a pig, after which I’d promise to give him a million dollars. He’s unlikely to even consider doing that until I demonstrate my means and motivation to do so. The threat itself isn’t reason enough to believe.

 

[createdtoworship]

It won’t matter. He will always find some silver lining in whatever punishment you offer (while simultaneously denying any silver linings to the Biblical Hell) in order to maintain that there’s some fundamental difference in the reasoning between the two. He has defined the Biblical Hell a priori as the worst possible punishment and the Biblical Heaven as the greatest possible reward. What he fails to grasp is that for Pascal’s wager to work, the threat of punishment and promise of reward need to be credible, not just ultimate. I could threaten to burn his house down unless he posts a video online of himself making love to a pig, after which I’d promise to give him a million dollars. He’s unlikely to even consider doing that until I demonstrate my means and motivation to do so. The threat itself isn’t reason enough to believe.

I challenge you to find a religion that has a worst punishment. My theory is simple the true God made the worst punishment we could imagine simply so we would avoid it at all cost, and this is the crux of pascals wager. If you can find a worst case scenario you would have done it by now. So without any facts of the matter, this is all hearsay, and opinion. Which is nothing in debate.

 

[gaara4158]

I challenge you to find a religion that has a worst punishment. My theory is simple the true God made the worst punishment we could imagine simply so we would avoid it at all cost, and this is the crux of pascals wager. If you can find a worst case scenario you would have done it by now. So without any facts of the matter, this is all hearsay, and opinion. Which is nothing in debate.

I challenge you to read, understand, and engage my post, not just see the quotation and reiterate your original argument.

Again, the intensity of the threat isn’t important, it’s the credibility.

 

[Speedwell]

care to explain your point? I don't see how a definition of moral agency proves the premise that was offered.

Because a moral agent is one who chooses his actions based on an internalized concept of good and bad. A person who is only acting to avoid punishment is not a moral agent.

 

[Belk]

I didn't think you would accept. But don't let fear get in the way of other things in life. It may hinder your joy and happiness.

I see we can add inability to answer direct questions to you growing list of evasion tactics.

 

[createdtoworship]

I challenge you to read, understand, and engage my post, not just see the quotation and reiterate your original argument.

Again, the intensity of the threat isn’t important, it’s the credibility.

I see we can add inability to answer direct questions to you growing list of evasion tactics.

so you don't have an example, as I thought. I rest my case. Again, point to any of your arguments that actually contain facts, and i will address those no problem. My guess is you can't. Because mocking someone is much easier than research.

 

[createdtoworship]

Because a moral agent is one who chooses his actions based on an internalized concept of good and bad. A person who is only acting to avoid punishment is not a moral agent.

you make two premises here that need citation, first is that we can only choose actions based on interlized concepts and not external evidence, and secondly a person who only acts to avoid punishment is not a moral agent. So I await your reply. I disagree with both of those, so please provide evidence.

 

[gaara4158]

so you don't have an example, as I thought. I rest my case. Again, point to any of your arguments that actually contain facts, and i will address those no problem. My guess is you can't. Because mocking someone is much easier than research.

Any time you care to engage my response rather than issue meaningless challenges, I’ll be here. Don’t worry, I’m not holding my breath.

And just so you don’t forget what I’m asking you to acknowledge: the strength of a threat comes from its credibility, not its intensity.

 

[Ophiolite]

I disagree with both of those

That explains just about everything you have posted. If only I had been aware of that from the outset I could have avoided much frustration and bemusement.
One certainly comes away from this with a heightened awareness of the diversity of views encompassed within Christianity.
At any rate, thank you for the eventual clarification.

 

[Speedwell]

you make two premises here that need citation, first is that we can only choose actions based on interlized concepts and not external evidence, and secondly a person who only acts to avoid punishment is not a moral agent. So I await your reply. I disagree with both of those, so please provide evidence.

Why should I provide evidence? You disagree without evidence.

But if a creature who only acts to avoid punishment is acting as a moral agent, then any brute beast can be one if you make a practice of beating it.

 

[Belk]

so you don't have an example, as I thought. I rest my case. Again, point to any of your arguments that actually contain facts, and i will address those no problem. My guess is you can't. Because mocking someone is much easier than research.

The inherent irony is delicious.

 

[ToBoxOrThrowInTowel?]

I hope you will be able to get out of it healthy.

I remember back in October 2016 when I was on the edge of Atheism and I nearly fell in total depression. My study performance was falling, I started looking pale and I broke down many times and cried hard. It was the worst period in my life (It mattered to me because I was an horrible person before coming to know Christ, so the idea that God changed me and made me clean and then I leave it all and return back to my usual life tasted like death to me, I would rather die). I'm still traumatic to it sometimes. I try to avoid a particular perfume and music that remind me of those times. I didn't come out of it the same person. Now, I'm different. As a current Christian and someone who managed to find his way back. I can tell you that the best thing you can do is to pray really hard, try to cry if you can, and try to wait. Pray and wait. Waiting is critical, try to give God a chance to guide you.

Also express your emotions and feelings towards God to the full, say everything you need to say in prayer, try to remind yourself of your relationship with God and every single time you felt his presence, talk it all to him in prayer. You know what we humans do when we want to show someone we love that they matter and that we don't want to leave them? Do it with God.

You are in an extremely painful phase now. Just reading your post was enough for my heartbeats to be troubled as I know how destructive this phase is.

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response.
I don't hear the soft "voice" of Jesus any more.
It would take too long to go in to this whole story. This "life." This journey as you say.

I am giving up.
There is no more hope for me.
I was doing very well and then had to move across country for my daughter.
I have been nothing but spiritually attacked here.
I am trapped.
The happiness I has thought I had finally secured in Jesus was just a joke. A joke of God even. He gambles with the devil. He gambled with Job over his life.
I am not rightous like Job in any way but I am beaten down for the last time.
I am
Throwing in the towel.
Thanks again for your response.

 

[ToBoxOrThrowInTowel?]

I can testify(!) that it's very possible to find hope and meaning in life even without believing in God. People find those things in many places. What has worked wonders for me is meditation and other practices and teachings from Buddhism. Nothing religious or supernatural, just things I can actually do to find peace and equanimity and comfort. I'm probably not allowed to "advertise" for other religions (though I'm strictly talking about secular Buddhism) here, but I have to say that meditation, more than anything, has transformed my life. It's amazing how your perspective can shift when you sit down and don't do anything but sitting there with yourself without judging any thought or feeling that arises. It blows my mind how much better things go those times I simply remember to breathe consciously for a few seconds before making a decision or speaking my mind. I've found that it's possible to find perfect, abundant peace within yourself. And looking back, now it's really a relief that I don't have to believe any longer. I no longer hold the one true key without which everybody else will be lost forever, there's nothing I have to take on faith to be saved or lead a good life, no making sure I have the correct interpretation of a translation of a version of some scripture etc etc. I could say a lot about what works for me, but again I'm not sure it's allowed.

If you find peace in faith, I'm all for it and happy for you. If you find it somewhere else, I'm just as happy for you. It breaks my heart to hear how you feel, because I really can relate, to trauma and self-medication and doubt and fear. But there is freedom and hope and meaning and peace. There is everything you will ever need, and you can find it.

/end
(sorry for the text walls)

Thank you for your kind and thoughful response Holo. You said, "I no longer hold the one true key without which everybody else will be lost forever, there's nothing I have to take on faith to be saved or lead a good life, no making sure I have the correct interpretation of a translation of a version of some scripture."

Well. I don't even hold that key for me anymore either.

Keep breathing.

I can't.

Throwing in the towel for good.

I can not "breath" any more and I am Throwing in the towel.

You do seems to understand the struggle

 

[ToBoxOrThrowInTowel?]

One of the hardest things about losing faith was that I felt I no longer had anything to offer people. The ultimate hope was gone. I was never much of an evangelist, but I did get to walk with people a few steps out of legalism and into liberty from time to time. I really wanted, and tried, to keep believing.
:/

Yep. That's me.

And I have. Lost ALL hope.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

post 721 was written by toddnottodd.

if you find the right post I can adress it, preferably post a link.

yes, and that person refuted Pascal’s wager very well. Conclusion, it is more logical to not make a bet.

 

[gaara4158]

Yep. That's me.

And I have. Lost ALL hope.

I’m very sorry to hear you’re feeling that way. I think it’s important to realize that no matter how false you now feel your beliefs that brought you such hope and joy in the past were, that hope and joy was real. You still have access to them. The key is still inside of you, you just have to find it again.

 

[quatona]

So without any facts of the matter, this is all hearsay, and opinion.

Oh, the irony.

 

[quatona]

I challenge you to find a religion that has a worst punishment.

Well, if that´s the criterium for accuracy I can easily create one.

 

[Kylie]

yes you would have to substitute. See coal does not equate to hell in any form, so it is equivocation to compare the two side by side. You can take each illustration on it's own and it becomes valid again, but when you use it as a comparison, each factor has to match up. For you to equate hell you must have a religion with an equal punishment of Hell. Something that has eternal conscious torture, for simply committing one sin within a life time. I doubt you can find one.

Wow, you seem intent on not getting the point.

Very well.

Lord Raznar the Great and Terrible wants you to believe in him. If you believe, he will send you to Happyville when you die, which is by definition twice as good as Heaven. If you don't believe in him, he will send you to Ouchyland, which is just as bad as Hell, but it also has a monkey trying to play a drum kit following you at all times to make it even more horrible.

So, Lord Raznar has a reward better than Heaven, and a punishment worse than Hell. Pascal's wager would encourage you to believe in Lord Raznar. Do you believe in Lord Raznar?