Where does Evil Come From?

[Bouke285]

Interesting question. I don't think heaven would be heaven without freedom. He gives us freedom because He loves us. And from what I understand about heaven, we will be united with God and we will be completely fulfilled, doing exactly what we were created for. In that situation, I cannot imagine that anyone would want to reject God.



Very true.

In response to your earlier question about how Satan "learned" evil... I don't think evil is something that needs to be learned. It's simply what happens when something becomes spoiled, when we go against our nature. When we decide "I will serve God first and foremost," that is good. When we decide "I will serve myself first and foremost," that is evil. It's against out nature; we were created to love and serve God.

In our resurrected state there will have to be a change brought over us, whether it be something directly done by God, or just by being in the fullness of his presence, we will change. This won't be by our will, we have no hope to make ourselves perfect.

Why do so many people link God being God with our ability to freely choose him of our own accord? This is not biblical. We can never be credited with doing something to earn our place with God. Why could one person believe and another not believe? If someone in heaven came up and asked you "Why are you here, and not that other guy?" you will only be able to answer, "I don't know"

We were created for God's glorification. He knew from the beginning we would fall. He knew that He would come to redeem us. God isn't ever surprised. Adam was in that situation and he chose to sin against God, all it took was one small hint of evil. God destroying the source of evil would be directly altering our ability to freely choose to do good or evil. And yet, many people have a problem with this idea. God is a God who counts our internal freedom higher than his own glory? No. We can't go against our nature within ourself, it must be caused by something external. At death we are separated from our sin nature, and at our resurrection we will be like Adam before the fall, with no desire to sin, but now we will be without the external source of evil, Satan.

If Satan didn't learn evil, but God gave him the ability to do evil wouldn't God be the indirect author of evil? For if anything comes, apart from God, directly or indirectly then God couldn't be all powerful. God willed his plan be complete in Christ's death. The means by which Christ redeemed humanity was by the sin of humanity. This was God's will, could Pilot have turned against it? Was there any other way Christ could have satisfied the righteousness of the Father than by the means He planned before time? No.

So, I don't think God is basically saying "Refuse to worship me? Fine, I'll punish you!" I think Hell is what we experience when we choose to be permanently cut off from our Creator. And that is what people are choosing when they reject God. I think if people really understood this, they wouldn't choose to be apart from Him. But when you love and respect someone, as God does with us, you honor their choices.

Why would God have any respect for us? Utter blasphemous rebels defying the very purpose for which we were created. Even at birth we are at enmity. People have an idea that God won't be present in Hell, but there is no grounds for this thought. God is everywhere, all the time. It may be because of His presence that Hell is Hell.

I have a lot of respect for C.S. Lewis. Though he didn't use the modern lingo of the reformation, Lewis did understand our place in God's plan. He understood that every person alive deserves Hell, and there is absolutely NOTHING we can do to change that. No amount of goodness will clean you from sin. It is only because God chooses some undeserving that any desire him. We choose him because he makes himself our greatest desire, that's how those who believe go against their nature and believe. God never needed us, we don't have anything on him. There would be nothing unjust if he were to send us all into eternal judgement. Only by believing in Christ's marvelous grace, his atoning death, his sacrifice to the Father's righteous judgement for our sakes, are we reconciled. That is love.

 

[Strider1002]

If you're saying that we can't earn salvation, you're right. It's freely available to us, but we still have to choose to accept it. Whether we have free will or we're predestined (or BOTH, which I happen to believe), I don't know. We may not be able to know at this point. (And personally, my belief in God isn't really a choice... it used to be, but then I experienced Him and now I know beyond a doubt that He's there.)

I don't think evil has a source. It's just something we do or don't do. We all have the potential for it, all we need to do is set ourselves up as our own god.

Whether God respects us or not, I think it's kind of a semantics issue and not really worth fighting over. The point is that if we don't want to be with Him, He won't force us to be with Him. He won't override our choice.

 

[Bouke285]

If you're saying that we can't earn salvation, you're right. It's freely available to us, but we still have to choose to accept it. Whether we have free will or we're predestined (or BOTH, which I happen to believe), I don't know. We may not be able to know at this point. (And personally, my belief in God isn't really a choice... it used to be, but then I experienced Him and now I know beyond a doubt that He's there.)

I don't think evil has a source. It's just something we do or don't do. We all have the potential for it, all we need to do is set ourselves up as our own god.

Whether God respects us or not, I think it's kind of a semantics issue and not really worth fighting over. The point is that if we don't want to be with Him, He won't force us to be with Him. He won't override our choice.

After reading this I came to realize we are more similar in our understanding than I thought. I'm not trying to fight, and I am sorry if that's the way I come off, I have some work to do on my presentation. I get, let's say, excited, when I discuss the deeper issues of my faith.

The main difference that I see between us is this: I believe nobody will choose God if it was left to them. I believe God must make himself more desirable than our natural-born rebellion in order for us to believe. This was hard for me to accept at first, I went back and forth many times until I finally came to the conclusion, either we are chosen, or I have to ignore the majority of Biblical context from that point on.

 

[razeontherock]

In 2000 years not one human no matter how great a theologian or how deep their faith has been able to give a finate simple answer to this question.

That's because the question is not simple and limited

Lots of excellent books have been written on theodicy. some people can even manage, w/o understanding. I sort of envy that

 

[razeontherock]

From my mind? I assure you that Evil is more than what I can conger inside my head.

Agreed. I have witnessed evil, I could never imagine.

What is not God, exists. Even if only be definition of what God chooses to Be.

Once God took it upon Himself to Create, this "non god" also had to have some expression, otherwise physical reality would not represent Spiritual reality.

And so we see that there was one tree in the midst of the garden ... forbidden, but dormant. Not doing anything at all. And should've stayed in that state for eternity.

Now examine the pre-fall Lucifer: a light bearing being, and a cherub that covers. We are not told what he covered, but we were given a brain. what does light cover, if not darkness?

Now, why would the serpent be at this forbidden tree, concealing what it really is?

2 Cor 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

 

[Strider1002]

After reading this I came to realize we are more similar in our understanding than I thought. I'm not trying to fight, and I am sorry if that's the way I come off, I have some work to do on my presentation. I get, let's say, excited, when I discuss the deeper issues of my faith.

Oh, I just naturally expect disagreements to become fights, maybe I've been on this forum too long

The main difference that I see between us is this: I believe nobody will choose God if it was left to them. I believe God must make himself more desirable than our natural-born rebellion in order for us to believe. This was hard for me to accept at first, I went back and forth many times until I finally came to the conclusion, either we are chosen, or I have to ignore the majority of Biblical context from that point on.

I've never really thought about that. I guess I'm just glad that my eyes have been opened. How do you think God makes Himself more desirable?

 

[Bible2]

WillHDearborn said in post #9:

I think I am in your line of thinking that God allows evil to exist, but to what end I will never fully understand.

God doesn't love everyone: he hates the nonelect (Rom. 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Rom. 9:18), for he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Rom. 9:20-22, Prov. 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Pet. 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (Jas. 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable on judgment day for their deeds (Rom. 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people. God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so he might eternally make known his wrath & power (Rom. 9:21-22, Prov. 16:4, Rev. 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, & wisdom (Rom. 9:23, Eph. 3:10, 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his nature to be made known both to humans & angels (Eph. 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities & abilities (1 Cor. 2:9, 1 Pet. 1:12b). E.g., the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans & angels until Satan & his fallen angels & all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal punishment of the lake of fire & brimstone (Mt. 25:41,46, Rev. 20:10,15, 14:10-11), & saved humans & holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the punishment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isa. 66:24), the eternal hell (Mk. 9:45-46), & realize by seeing it not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it (by way of contrast) the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lam. 3:22-23). Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of his wrath.

 

[Bouke285]

Oh, I just naturally expect disagreements to become fights, maybe I've been on this forum too long



I've never really thought about that. I guess I'm just glad that my eyes have been opened. How do you think God makes Himself more desirable?

God regenerates those who are His. He gives them a new desire by sending the Holy Spirit to bring them into belief. I can't go as far to believe in double predestination as Bible2 illustrated above, but I do admit in not holding to that doctrin we do have some difficult scripture. Scripture that disallows us from flatly saying double predestination is false

 

[Strider1002]

There's a great book by Robert Morgan called "The Promise," which is all about Romans 8, and especially verse 28. He writes that predestination vs free will is not really a contradiction, but a mystery, something that we just can't explain. He describes them like two parallel roads stretching into the distance; at some point, they converge, but we can't see where. Not yet.

 

[jbwalker]

I've been a victom of Schitzophrenea for about 10 years. My voices tell me that they are a Satanic accult that uses mind control with super computers and cell phone towers. If you look up NSA mind control on the internet you might be surprized on how much evil really is in the world J.B.

 

[Bouke285]

There's a great book by Robert Morgan called "The Promise," which is all about Romans 8, and especially verse 28. He writes that predestination vs free will is not really a contradiction, but a mystery, something that we just can't explain. He describes them like two parallel roads stretching into the distance; at some point, they converge, but we can't see where. Not yet.

This is the tension I hold onto dearly. God's sovereignty and human responsibility seem to be opposites, but somehow they are not.

 

[Bible2]

WillHDearborn said in post #1:

Where does Evil Come From?

"...from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within..." (Mk. 7:21-23).

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust..." (Jas. 1:13-14).

 

[Emmy]

Dear WillHDearborn. God is Love and God was always there, Love cannot die. We know for a fact, where God is, there will always be Love.
When I read the Parables our Lord told us, one in particular, hit me full force. We find it in St.Matthews, chapter 13, verses 24-30. Here is one very interesting piece of telling us: "where does evil come from"? God`s adversary sowed thistles inmidst where God had sown good seed. Jesus advised His disciples Not to pull the thistles out, to let them grow amongst the good seed, and then at Harvest -Time they would be dealt with, burned! Another good answer is: Love is very strong, and where there is NO Love, Evill will take over and rule.
Whenever I ask myself," Where does Evil come from? I have these two ready answers. We know for a fact, Love is very important to God, and where Love rules, or even lives, Satan, nor any of his followers, have the slightest chance. Knowing this gives me many answers, perhaps to you as well?
I say this with love, Will. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[jbwalker]

Have a nice Sunday. J.B.

 

[jbwalker]

I'm not sure how to see my messages that I recieve. Anybody got advise on this? Thank you, J.B.
Bless you for thinking about helping me out here...

 

[mjolnir81]

I have studied numerous schools of religion in my quest to find the answer to this same question and what I have discoverd a common them if you will in almost all the religion I studied both pre dating and post dating christianity is there is always and will always be good and evil for one cannot exist without the other, think of the yingyang or a shadow, a shadow cannot be cast without light.
I realise this is not the definitive answer you were hopeing for but after years of study it is the best I couldcome upwith

 

[jbwalker]

Thank you. I respect any answere I can get. I had to surrender 8 kittens yesterday at the Humane society and I feel pretty sad. Seems like my apartment is empty now without them . I sure am gonna miss those little guys. God bless, J.B.

 

[mjolnir81]

You did the right thing though Jb if you couldn't look after them yourself, sure you'll miss them but remember your never truly alone when you have the lord with ya.

And we're here for you too
God bless you jb

 

[jbwalker]

Thanks for your understanding. I miss them very much, so does Momma. J.B.

 

[TheGuide]

Both good and evil are in the hearts of man. It is a by-product of choice, and the word of God tells us to "choose good."

The first Adam sold his birthright for the knowledge of good and evil. We can say he was naive, but the Lord specifically warned him about the tree. So, in essence, he was disobedient and the curse of evil was unleashed.

Apparently, evil did not began with the first Adam because the one that influenced him and Eve to defy God was evil. For now, that's all we know.