Where does Evil Come From?

[WillHDearborn]

I know this question has been asked a hundred times over here and sure all over the web in similar forums. The problem I have is no one seems to give me a finite answer about where evil comes from. This something that I think about from time to time and have pursued because the answers I have been give don’t satisfy the question that keeps coming to my mind.
I am reborn Christian and let Jesus take over my life 4 years ago. I have prayed for God to give me peace in this quest and lead me to a life that I let him handle these burdens for me but I cannot seem to shake my old way of thinking. I was a law student many years back and was going to concentrate in prosecution of child abusers. I would become full of rage and malice towards those that hurt children. It fueled my desire to get the education. I discovered Jesus Christ and realize that God is the only true Judge in all matters such as this and I could not pretend to be God and judge those in his place. He has a plan that will deal with those that I feel wrong children.
This however is where the question came into my mind and I can’t seem to shake it. ”where does this evil come from?” it filled my mind up and I would think about what I could mean but I could find no answer. I tried to let it go but it’s almost as if I need the answer to move on. I began my search simply enough asking those around me who brought me to Christ what they though. Many of them would give me the same answer “Satan brings evil to this world.” I asked a couple of group leaders in my church the question and got similar answers. I even e-mailed the Pastor of my church and asked him. “God gave us free will to choose a life following Jesus and to let him worry. To live in his light and behold the wonders that God has created. There are those who will choose another path and bring evil into this world.” That is what I got from him. I understand that Jesus is the real path to God but it still doesn’t answer my question “where does evil come from?” if we bring it into the world where from? From Satan? If he brings it into this world where did he bring it from? This made me think terrible thoughts like “who gives Satan the power to be Evil or bring it into this world?” or “if we bring it in to this world why would God allow this?”
I have trouble sleeping at night because of this, but also because I can’t find the answers. It’s the lack of responses from some people that seem to bring me more pain as several of the places I have contacted never responded to me. I know its seems like a taboo subject but I feel that God has sent me on this quest to find the answers because of the lack of answers I have been given, A way to bolster in those who share my thoughts a solid answer to give.
Thank you for your response, for your time and thoughts. God bless you.

 

[Bouke285]

I know this question has been asked a hundred times over here and sure all over the web in similar forums. The problem I have is no one seems to give me a finite answer about where evil comes from. This something that I think about from time to time and have pursued because the answers I have been give don’t satisfy the question that keeps coming to my mind.
I am reborn Christian and let Jesus take over my life 4 years ago. I have prayed for God to give me peace in this quest and lead me to a life that I let him handle these burdens for me but I cannot seem to shake my old way of thinking. I was a law student many years back and was going to concentrate in prosecution of child abusers. I would become full of rage and malice towards those that hurt children. It fueled my desire to get the education. I discovered Jesus Christ and realize that God is the only true Judge in all matters such as this and I could not pretend to be God and judge those in his place. He has a plan that will deal with those that I feel wrong children.

This however is where the question came into my mind and I can’t seem to shake it. ”where does this evil come from?” it filled my mind up and I would think about what I could mean but I could find no answer. I tried to let it go but it’s almost as if I need the answer to move on. I began my search simply enough asking those around me who brought me to Christ what they though. Many of them would give me the same answer “Satan brings evil to this world.” I asked a couple of group leaders in my church the question and got similar answers. I even e-mailed the Pastor of my church and asked him. “God gave us free will to choose a life following Jesus and to let him worry. To live in his light and behold the wonders that God has created. There are those who will choose another path and bring evil into this world.” That is what I got from him. I understand that Jesus is the real path to God but it still doesn’t answer my question “where does evil come from?” if we bring it into the world where from? From Satan? If he brings it into this world where did he bring it from? This made me think terrible thoughts like “who gives Satan the power to be Evil or bring it into this world?” or “if we bring it in to this world why would God allow this?”
I have trouble sleeping at night because of this, but also because I can’t find the answers. It’s the lack of responses from some people that seem to bring me more pain as several of the places I have contacted never responded to me. I know its seems like a taboo subject but I feel that God has sent me on this quest to find the answers because of the lack of answers I have been given, A way to bolster in those who share my thoughts a solid answer to give.
Thank you for your response, for your time and thoughts. God bless you.

All things come from God, this is one of those things we must hold in tension. I could quote you some scripture, but it would be taken out of context. The Bible doesn't speak on the relationship between God and how/why he allowed evil to exist, or some would say, created something evil. Rest assured, God is rightous and if he decided to create evil so His glory/righteousness could be seen, that is a just decision. One day, evil will be conquered, and oh how God's righteousness will shine in that day.

Many will jump to "free will" as an explanation, though few know what their definition of free will is, but even then, it always comes back to God being the omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent creator. Theologians haven't been able to figure out what to do with Satan on the free will spectrum, though the free will most refer to when using it as an explanation is free will from within, decisions are effected by no outside source, the author is the genesis of their own desire. I don't believe this type of free will exists. We always choose based on our greatest desire, and those desires will be affected by many outside sources. So how could Satan have chosen to defy God while he was made perfect and lived within the righteousness of God? A hard question to ask and answer without going to the easy "free will" answer, which indeed does make everyone feel better, but is it biblical?

We must understand, man is still held accountable for his sin even though it is our very nature. Did God create Satan knowing he would one day tempt humanity into its downfall? Yes, did God directly create Satan for this purpose? I don't know. Would God be any less righteous if he did? No.

 

[1watchman]

Satan is described in the Bible as "the father of evil", and since he acted independent of God in the very beginning, he became representative of all outside of God (apart from holiness). When man disobeyed God he fell in sin, and the curse came upon him --which passed on to succeeding generations as us. We might tend to think of evil as terrible, but the Bible makes a distinction between evil and wickedness. Evil is the lesser sin and is acting apart from God to please self.

 

[Strider1002]

My favorite Christian author, CS Lewis, believed that everything starts out good. Evil is not a thing in itself, it's the spoiling of good. He explains it well in his book "Mere Christianity." Satan himself started out good, but then he decided he wanted to put himself first instead of God. That's a choice we have to make -who is first in our lives?

Lewis says, as long as there is a self, there is the possibility of putting the self first, before God. But if we didn't have the freedom to do that, we'd just be like... God's action figures, basically. Mankind fell because we were tempted to become "like God," and we gave in. Trying to put ourselves first.

 

[docpotter]

My favorite Christian author, CS Lewis, believed that everything starts out good. Evil is not a thing in itself, it's the spoiling of good. He explains it well in his book "Mere Christianity." Satan himself started out good, but then he decided he wanted to put himself first instead of God. That's a choice we have to make -who is first in our lives?

Lewis says, as long as there is a self, there is the possibility of putting the self first, before God. But if we didn't have the freedom to do that, we'd just be like... God's action figures, basically. Mankind fell because we were tempted to become "like God," and we gave in. Trying to put ourselves first.

CS Lewis is the man. Brilliant.

I loved The Screwtape Letters

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I know this question has been asked a hundred times over here and sure all over the web in similar forums. The problem I have is no one seems to give me a finite answer about where evil comes from. This something that I think about from time to time and have pursued because the answers I have been give don’t satisfy the question that keeps coming to my mind.
I am reborn Christian and let Jesus take over my life 4 years ago. I have prayed for God to give me peace in this quest and lead me to a life that I let him handle these burdens for me but I cannot seem to shake my old way of thinking. I was a law student many years back and was going to concentrate in prosecution of child abusers. I would become full of rage and malice towards those that hurt children. It fueled my desire to get the education. I discovered Jesus Christ and realize that God is the only true Judge in all matters such as this and I could not pretend to be God and judge those in his place. He has a plan that will deal with those that I feel wrong children.
This however is where the question came into my mind and I can’t seem to shake it. ”where does this evil come from?” it filled my mind up and I would think about what I could mean but I could find no answer. I tried to let it go but it’s almost as if I need the answer to move on. I began my search simply enough asking those around me who brought me to Christ what they though. Many of them would give me the same answer “Satan brings evil to this world.” I asked a couple of group leaders in my church the question and got similar answers. I even e-mailed the Pastor of my church and asked him. “God gave us free will to choose a life following Jesus and to let him worry. To live in his light and behold the wonders that God has created. There are those who will choose another path and bring evil into this world.” That is what I got from him. I understand that Jesus is the real path to God but it still doesn’t answer my question “where does evil come from?” if we bring it into the world where from? From Satan? If he brings it into this world where did he bring it from? This made me think terrible thoughts like “who gives Satan the power to be Evil or bring it into this world?” or “if we bring it in to this world why would God allow this?”
I have trouble sleeping at night because of this, but also because I can’t find the answers. It’s the lack of responses from some people that seem to bring me more pain as several of the places I have contacted never responded to me. I know its seems like a taboo subject but I feel that God has sent me on this quest to find the answers because of the lack of answers I have been given, A way to bolster in those who share my thoughts a solid answer to give.
Thank you for your response, for your time and thoughts. God bless you.

You would have to settle for the answer the bible gives. The bible tells us that God created Lucifer and he was perfect until the day that iniquity was found in him. Now where did Satan discover evil? That is a question no one can answer but evil never came from God, it came from Satan.

Why we are evil is because of the fall of Adam and Eve. The bible says that by one man's sin (Adam) sin has come to all men. The devil capitalizes on this and amplifies our evil tendencies with his various temptations and plots. This is the best answer I can give you.

 

[Bouke285]

I think if we all attempt to answer these questions, we will have a sobering understanding (or lack of) about our idea of God's relationship with evil.

1) Did Satan catch God off guard?

2) Did God intend for the fall, and later redemption, of humanity to be part of His plan from the beginning?

3) Is it possible for us to be the source of our own desires?

4) Are we to define what is righteous and not righteous, or is God?

5) Would God's using evil for His good make Him evil?

6) Can we know good without evil?

7) Is God more glorified when we know His goodness?

A Psalm for Thanksgiving.

Psalm 100: 1 Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth.
2 Serve the Lord with gladness;
Come before Him with joyful singing.
3 Know that the Lord Himself is God;
It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;
We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.
4 Enter His gates with thanksgiving
And His courts with praise.
Give thanks to Him, bless His name.
5 For the Lord is good;
His lovingkindness is everlasting
And His faithfulness to all generations.

John Piper gives one alternative explanation, the two wills of God.

The most compelling example of God's willing for sin to come to pass while at the same time disapproving the sin is his willing the death of his perfect, divine Son. The betrayal of Jesus by Judas was a morally evil act inspired immediately by Satan (Luke 22:3). Yet in Acts 2:23 Luke says, "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan (boule) and foreknowledge of God." The betrayal was sin, and it involved the instrumentality of Satan; but it was part of God's ordained plan. That is, there is a sense in which God willed the delivering up of his Son, even though the act was sin.
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/are-there-two-wills-in-god

 

[WillHDearborn]

I think if we all attempt to answer these questions, we will have a sobering understanding (or lack of) about our idea of God's relationship with evil.

1) Did Satan catch God off guard?

2) Did God intend for the fall, and later redemption, of humanity to be part of His plan from the beginning?

3) Is it possible for us to be the source of our own desires?

4) Are we to define what is righteous and not righteous, or is God?

5) Would God's using evil for His good make Him evil?

6) Can we know good without evil?

7) Is God more glorified when we know His goodness?

This is the part that can’t seem to get past. Why does God allow such terrible things to happen to make us appreciate his glory? Is there no other way for him to win us to his side then allowing bad things to happen to us? As a parent myself it’s like allowing my kids to be kidnapped or have something worse happen to them to show them that my way of life is much more desirable. I don’t believe God has this intent but that’s the way it is portrayed. As a father I do everything in my power to keep my kids from harm because I love them. When they get older and become adults I will let go of the reins and let them set their own path but I will never stop trying to protect them from harm.

I think I am in your line of thinking that God allows evil to exist, but to what end I will never fully understand. I can’t understand why a righteous benevolent God would need to harm those he loves to bring them to his light. In school I had a humanities class in which we would break into groups to have discussions. One group I was in the conversation became a discussion about religion and I tried to steer the topic to this very one. One of the members was an atheist and told me this, paraphrasing of course “ if there was a God the existence of Evil can only come from one of two alternatives, God won’t stop Evil, or God can’t stop Evil. “ essentially the break down was this:

1.) God won’t stop Evil- this is somewhat along the lines of Bouke285 comments. He stated that God created Evil and allows it to exist. Since God is the creator of everything God controls Evil and gives it sanction to do as it will. (To what end he didn’t know ether) he said that would make God indifferent not benevolent.


2.) God can’t stop Evil- this one gave me pause because I have come across several Christians who have said similar things. His explanation of this is that God didn’t create Evil that Evil always existed and therefore was outside the control of God. So even if God wanted to stop Evil he can’t. Which made me think more about the subject of this post and want to know where did Evil come from? Is there power in this universe that acts outside Gods will? if that’s true does that mean that God isn’t omnipotent or all knowing? if he’s all knowing then that would lead back to alternative 1 that he won’t stop it.


Thank you for all your comments and help with this. I will stay strong in my belief and continue to allow the Word into my life and praise God.

 

[vespasia]

In 2000 years not one human no matter how great a theologian or how deep their faith has been able to give a finate simple answer to this question.

After wading through many theological books I conclude that it may simply be humans being finate are incapable to grasping the answer to this one until we meet face to face with God. In this world I tend to imagine asking for the answer to theodicy and a few other things will be at the top of my list of things I would want to ask God.

Somehow I suspect on that day I may be a bit too awed to consider this particular question to matter all that much by then.

For now I beleive God knows, we are not able to cope with the seeming paradox in this world no matter how hard we try and use human reasoning and in the next it might not have the imprtance we give it in this world.

 

[Strider1002]

God did not create evil. Allowing it to exist is not the same as harming us Himself. We--mankind--allowed evil into the world. The "free will" argument may seem like a cliche at this point, but it's true. We're free to be good and free to be bad. God wanted to create creatures who could love Him freely. If the only option given to us is to love Him, then it's not really a choice, is it? Some will choose not to love Him, which is unfortunate, but He apparently thinks it's a risk worth taking. It is our choice, and we have to bear the consequences.

 

[WillHDearborn]

Evil came from your mind.

From my mind? I assure you that Evil is more than what I can conger inside my head. I have seen some bad things happen to people. Not accidental things that cause people harm but people willfully harming another person for the sheer pleasure of it. That’s something you never forget. So if you have some proof that these things happen all in the imagination of a human being let’s hear it.

 

[Bouke285]

God did not create evil. Allowing it to exist is not the same as harming us Himself. We--mankind--allowed evil into the world. The "free will" argument may seem like a cliche at this point, but it's true. We're free to be good and free to be bad. God wanted to create creatures who could love Him freely. If the only option given to us is to love Him, then it's not really a choice, is it? Some will choose not to love Him, which is unfortunate, but He apparently thinks it's a risk worth taking. It is our choice, and we have to bear the consequences.

This is where it gets tricky . If evil originated from the free will of Satan alone, where did he learn what evil was? He was in perfection, he would have no outside motivation to rebel against God. He would have no reason to be jealous of God, unless there was an external motivating factor. Adam never would have known evil without the opportunity to eat of the tree, directly motivated by Satan. To sin, Adam would have had to defy one of God's commands, he had no reason within himself to do so. Adam wasn't created with a sin nature (he had no desire to sin) something we can't grasp today. It was only because of external influences, the opportunity and the coercion, that he committed humanities' first sin.

I'm not pressing my point, just raising some difficult questions someone of this view must answer.

To clarify further, I do not believe God created Satan evil. He was created good, scripture tells us this. But God created him knowing he would fall, he incorporated that fall into the plan to redeem mankind from the beginning. The part I hold in tension, as we all should, what motivated Satan to become jealous of God? If it was something apart from God-- as WillHDearborn said was one of 2 options as to why evil exists-- how could God be God?

There is a day when we will no longer have sin nature, there will be no outside motivating factor for us to know sin. Sin will no longer exist. How is this different than in the beginning? The one factor is Satan. Created good by God, known to eventually fall (how is an unanswerable question) used to show us God's love.

 

[Strider1002]

Think about this, Will. Can you think of any evil acts that don't involve putting oneself ahead of God or others? I can't.

CS Lewis believed that "putting oneself first" is the origin of evil and sin, and I agree.

 

[Bouke285]

Think about this, Will. Can you think of any evil acts that don't involve putting oneself ahead of God or others? I can't.

CS Lewis believed that "putting oneself first" is the origin of evil and sin, and I agree.

Is it on the day of our resurrection that God will take this ability to defy him away from us? Why will it be on this day no one will desire to put themselves before God.? Isn't this how it was when God created Satan? There must be some factor present then, that will no longer be present, because we have a promise of God, that evil will be eradicated forever.

Free will and God's sovereignty are incalculably harmonized at the highest level.

 

[Nickali]

I too asked a lot questions no one ever seemed to have answers for and then I came across a book you have got to read. It's called "Lucifer Revisited: She's Not Who You Think He Is; The Battle for Control" by Travis Yates.

I know the title is a little bizarre at first, but I can assure you, you will find more answers here than anywhere you've looked before. He deals with a lot of questions we both were asking especially those no one ever talks about.

I believe it will help with those sleepless nights.

 

[Strider1002]

Is it on the day of our resurrection that God will take this ability to defy him away from us?

Interesting question. I don't think heaven would be heaven without freedom. He gives us freedom because He loves us. And from what I understand about heaven, we will be united with God and we will be completely fulfilled, doing exactly what we were created for. In that situation, I cannot imagine that anyone would want to reject God.

Free will and God's sovereignty are incalculably harmonized at the highest level.

Very true.

In response to your earlier question about how Satan "learned" evil... I don't think evil is something that needs to be learned. It's simply what happens when something becomes spoiled, when we go against our nature. When we decide "I will serve God first and foremost," that is good. When we decide "I will serve myself first and foremost," that is evil. It's against out nature; we were created to love and serve God.

 

[WillHDearborn]

Free will is definitely something many people I have talked to have struggled with when it comes to a full understanding of God and his actions. I feel that we are free to choose what path we take but prefer the path God has laid out for me.

Think about this, Will. Can you think of any evil acts that don't involve putting oneself ahead of God or others? I can't.

CS Lewis believed that "putting oneself first" is the origin of evil and sin, and I agree.

Strider1002 you raise a valid point, I cannot think of an Evil act that does not put oneself in front of God and others. I could say something like “a dictator acts for the people” when he commits Evil acts but they mostly work for themselves in the end.

As far as being born good or evil I would actually say it’s neither. If God did grant us free will then making us all good in the beginning is not really a choice. I am more incline to believe that we are born with no alignment and we become good or evil. For me that is ultimately free will. Like many of you I would hope that everyone would chose to be good and do what God wants of them but it does come down to what you chose in the end.

That same atheist that I was in a discussion group with spoke of his thoughts on this, I wonder what you all might think. Despite the fact that he was an “Atheist” he talked of God as if he was real to him. His thoughts where this “If I’m free to choose whether or not I follow God what happens if I don’t follow him? Do I go to hell for using my God given right to choose? Is it basically ‘you can choose whatever you want, but you don’t choose me you burn for it?’ I listen to some of the other try to explain why his reasoning was faulty but he wasn’t listening. He seemed determined to not be swayed. Any thoughts?

 

[Strider1002]

I highly recommend that you read "Mere Christianity" if you haven't. It's straightforward, logical, and I lost count of how many times it made me say "why didn't I think of that?"

The atheist was on the right track, I think. It is our choice. We're basically choosing to be united with God or completely separated from God. I have heard Hell described as "separation from God." I believe that's why it's such a terrible place. We were made by God to be with Him, so being permanently separated from Him would be, well, Hell for us.

So, I don't think God is basically saying "Refuse to worship me? Fine, I'll punish you!" I think Hell is what we experience when we choose to be permanently cut off from our Creator. And that is what people are choosing when they reject God. I think if people really understood this, they wouldn't choose to be apart from Him. But when you love and respect someone, as God does with us, you honor their choices.

 

[docpotter]

Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis

This is neat, its the audio book free online, and I believe it is CS himself reading it.