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Where does "Do unto others ..." lead?

The Liturgist

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Is essence and uncreated energies dogmatic teaching in Orthodoxy?

Is absence of a Latin word in a Latin creed a dogmatic teaching of Orthodoxy?

Yes and yes. Interestingly by the way your own church regards the filioque as an error when expressed in the Greek language, which seems strange to me, since while Greek is extremely expressive the idea that there is no way to translate the filioque into Greek so that it could be understood is absurd.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Yes and yes. Interestingly by the way your own church regards the filioque as an error when expressed in the Greek language, which seems strange to me, since while Greek is extremely expressive the idea that there is no way to translate the filioque into Greek so that it could be understood is absurd.
Catholic teaching is in the CCC, not so much in CF.
 
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The Liturgist

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Catholic teaching is in the CCC, not so much in CF.

The CCC is specific to the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholics have their own catechisms: Our Faith. A Byzantine Catechism book for Adults by Casimir Kucharek. – Byzantine Church Supplies

If you don’t believe me concerning the filioque or the Byzantine Rite liturgy, look it up. If I have made a mistake I will amend my post, but every post I make I warrant to be accurate to the best of my knowledge, and additionally I routinely self-edit and self-correct my posts when I find errors.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The CCC is specific to the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholics have their own catechisms: Our Faith. A Byzantine Catechism book for Adults by Casimir Kucharek. – Byzantine Church Supplies

If you don’t believe me concerning the filioque or the Byzantine Rite liturgy, look it up. If I have made a mistake I will amend my post, but every post I make I warrant to be accurate to the best of my knowledge, and additionally I routinely self-edit and self-correct my posts when I find errors.
I do not know what to say; have you read the letter of John Paul II at the front of the CCC?
 
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The Liturgist

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I do not know what to say; have you read the letter of John Paul II at the front of the CCC?

You don’t seem to understand how the different sui juris churches work witnin the context of Roman Catholicism. They are what in Orthodoxy we call autonomous churches - not autocephalous, but autonomous, in that the Pope appoints their primate and can theoretically fire their primate, although that’s never happened. But since Vatican II, the Latinizing trend that had been occurring in these churches was reversed, particularly in the East Syriac and Byzantine Rite churches, so that now, the Byzantine Rite catholics such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the Ruthenian Greek Catholics, the Melkite Catholics and the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, among others, really are, as they like to call themselves, “Orthodox in communion with Rome.”

The CCC is plainly a document published on the other hand by the Roman Rite which is applicable only in those churches using the Roman Rite or the Ambrosian Rite in Milan, which is a liturgical variant. I’ve already shown you one of the more popular Byzantine Catholic catechisms. But since you still don’t believe me, read the Byzantine Catholic liturgical texts. Many of them are online. The Metropolitan Cantor Institute has a great number: Metropolitan Cantor Institute

Then explain to me how St. Gregory Palamas can be venerated as a saint in the Byzantine Catholic churches despite being a fully committed Eastern Orthodox who taught the Essence/Energies distinction including the idea that Grace is an Uncreated Energy of God, and whose opponent, on being defeated at the Palamist synod, left Greece and joined the Roman Catholic Church, because that remains one of the great unsolved mysteries to me of Eastern Catholicism.
 
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FireDragon76

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Jesus' teaching that one should treat others as they themselves would like to be treated, commonly known as the Golden Rule, holds a profound theological meaning. Do you agree that It encapsulates the empathic essence of morality, emphasizing the dignity and respect due to every individual? And would practicing this commandment lead individuals towards greater empathy and moral integrity, while guiding societies towards fairness, equality, and mutual respect?

It's a moral heuristic that is hardly unique to Christianity, and is found in many cultures, so I'd say it has a proven track record.
 
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The Liturgist

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It's a moral heuristic that is hardly unique to Christianity, and is found in many cultures, so I'd say it has a proven track record.

I am unaware of any religion which taught it in the way our Lord emphasized together with His other remarks on mercy. Some people like to claim that Buddhism contains similar moral doctrine to Christianity, but this is false; Buddhism is a cold and in my opinion, deeply unpleasant religion centered around moderation and indifference in which the sinful passions are suppressed rather than converted into positive forces for action, which is what Orthodox Christianity does.

One of the most striking things I have come across that illustrates the difference between Christianity and all other religions is the Amusing Stories of the 12th century Syriac Orthodox Maphrian (vice-Patriarch of Mesopotamia) St. Gregorios bar Hebraeus, who collected sayings of the leading Greek philosophers, Persian sages, Jewish rabbis and so on, and also included the sayings of the Desert Fathers. There is no evidence he did this for any polemical purpose; rather, the book is clearly meant for amusement, based on its title, as it includes, for instance, a chapter on talking animals. But the contrast between the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, and the accumulated “wisdom” of the Persians, Indians, Greeks, Jews and others, is truly dramatic and illustrates the uniqueness of the Christian religion.

It can be read online here, among other places: The Laughable Stories of Bar-Hebraeus Index
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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You don’t seem to understand how the different sui juris churches work witnin the context of Roman Catholicism. They are what in Orthodoxy we call autonomous churches - not autocephalous, but autonomous, in that the Pope appoints their primate and can theoretically fire their primate, although that’s never happened. But since Vatican II, the Latinizing trend that had been occurring in these churches was reversed, particularly in the East Syriac and Byzantine Rite churches, so that now, the Byzantine Rite catholics such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the Ruthenian Greek Catholics, the Melkite Catholics and the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, among others, really are, as they like to call themselves, “Orthodox in communion with Rome.”

The CCC is plainly a document published on the other hand by the Roman Rite which is applicable only in those churches using the Roman Rite or the Ambrosian Rite in Milan, which is a liturgical variant. I’ve already shown you one of the more popular Byzantine Catholic catechisms. But since you still don’t believe me, read the Byzantine Catholic liturgical texts. Many of them are online. The Metropolitan Cantor Institute has a great number: Metropolitan Cantor Institute

Then explain to me how St. Gregory Palamas can be venerated as a saint in the Byzantine Catholic churches despite being a fully committed Eastern Orthodox who taught the Essence/Energies distinction including the idea that Grace is an Uncreated Energy of God, and whose opponent, on being defeated at the Palamist synod, left Greece and joined the Roman Catholic Church, because that remains one of the great unsolved mysteries to me of Eastern Catholicism.
Let this be the last post in this thread on the Catholic Roman rites and the Byzantine rites (and their associated churches) because I think we have strayed from the thread's topic a little. But I want to reply in this thread because your post deserves to receive a reply in the context of this thread.

These statements from council and other authoritative documents are useful

“The Churches of the East are worthy of the glory and reverence that they hold throughout the whole of Christendom in virtue of those extremely ancient, singular memorials that they have bequeathed to us. For it was in that part of the world that the first actions for the redemption of the human race began, in accord with the all-kind plan of God. They swiftly gave forth their yield: there flowered in first blush the glories of preaching the True Faith to the nations, of martyrdom, and of holiness. They gave us the first joys of the fruits of salvation…”
OD Introduction​
“All in the Church must preserve unity in essentials. But let all, according to the gifts they have received enjoy a proper freedom, in their various forms of spiritual life and discipline, in their different liturgical rites, and even in their theological elaborations of revealed truth.”
UR 4​

Eastern Catholics may go about their theology in a way that is different from what we see in the Latin Church. It is equally valid and never strays from the essentials of doctrine, though. Furthermore, this means that any Catholic of a sui iuris Church may receive the sacraments and attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (or Divine Liturgy, Holy Qurbono, etc. as it is called in the East) at any sui iuris Church. Each of the 24 Churches is fully Catholic. One can fulfill his obligation for Mass at any one of these Churches whenever they desire. (The Other 23 Catholic Churches (Rites) and Why They Exist - Ascension Press Media)


Below is a list of the six rites of the Catholic Church, followed by which sui iuris Churches are contained within them.

Latin Rite

  1. Latin (or Roman) Catholic Church

Alexandrian Rite

  1. Coptic Catholic Church
  2. Eritrean Catholic Church
  3. Ethiopian Catholic Church

West Syrian (or Antiochene) Rite

  1. Maronite Catholic Church
  2. Syriac Catholic Church
  3. Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

Armenian Rite

  1. Armenian Catholic Church

East Syrian (or Chaldean) Rite

  1. Chaldean Catholic Church
  2. Syro-Malabar Catholic Church

Constantinopolitan (or Byzantine) Rite

  1. Albanian Catholic Church
  2. Belarusian Catholic Church
  3. Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
  4. Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (or Križevci Catholic Church)
  5. Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
  6. Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
  7. Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
  8. Macedonian Catholic Church
  9. Melkite Greek Catholic Church
  10. Romanian Catholic Church
  11. Russian Catholic Church
  12. Ruthenian Catholic Church (also known as the Byzantine Catholic Church in America)
  13. Slovak Catholic Church
  14. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Buddhism is a cold and in my opinion, deeply unpleasant religion
I must agree with respect to the teaching of Karma which trains Buddhists to accept their lot in life as either reward for goodness in past lives or as punishment for badness in past lives, thus an individual who is crippled, blind, poor, diseased and so forth is so because in their past lives they did things to deserve their lot in life now. That is a most cruel teaching indeed.
 
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FireDragon76

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I must agree with respect to the teaching of Karma which trains Buddhists to accept their lot in life as either reward for goodness in past lives or as punishment for badness in past lives, thus an individual who is crippled, blind, poor, diseased and so forth is so because in their past lives they did things to deserve their lot in life now. That is a most cruel teaching indeed.

As somebody with a great deal of experience with Buddhism, I know that's a simplistic caricature of a complex set of belief systems.

Christians have potentially equally problematic notions in their history, used to justify the status quo. Historically, many Christian churches have taught slaves and serfs to accept their lot in life, likewise. And while Buddhists might seem more indifferent to human suffering in comparison, there's nothing in their history akin to the Christian persecution of pagans, witches, and homosexuals.
 
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The Liturgist

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Christians have potentially equally problematic notions in their history, used to justify the status quo.

Speak for your church, but not for mine. Racism is utterly foreign to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, despite what fictions one might occasionally read from Catholic and Calvinist propagandists, and we also were the victims of great violence during the Crusades, and not the perpetrators. Indeed the Fourth Crusade was just a pretext to invade the Byzantine Empire, and when the Crusaders on the First Crusade ran out of provisions in Syria they resorted to raiding and in some extreme cases even cannibalizing the local Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians!
 
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FireDragon76

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Speak for your church, but not for mine. Racism is utterly foreign to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches,

Actually, "Holy Russia" is potentially a great example of the kind of oppressive religious system you seem to think is intrinsic to Buddhism.
 
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The Liturgist

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Actually, "Holy Russia" is potentially a great example of the kind of oppressive religious system you seem to think is intrinsic to Buddhism.

Nonsense. The condition of the Russian Orthodox Church in the 17th century before Czar Peter illegally expropriated control over it was as excellent as any church could be, and since that time, while some governmental regimes, for example, the Soviets, have interfered with portions of the Russian Orthodox Church, other parts such as ROCOR, which was fiercely anti-Communist and which, like the OCA, has many Ukrainian members, functioned very well.

If you want to see an oppressive religious government, one of the worst offenders in the world, possibly the worst after Saudi Arabia, is Bhutan, a brutal isolationist regime guilty of ethnic cleansing against Nepalese refugees. And in Bhutan they practice a form of Buddhism (the Druk school).
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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As somebody with a great deal of experience with Buddhism, I know that's a simplistic caricature of a complex set of belief systems.

Christians have potentially equally problematic notions in their history, used to justify the status quo. Historically, many Christian churches have taught slaves and serfs to accept their lot in life, likewise. And while Buddhists might seem more indifferent to human suffering in comparison, there's nothing in their history akin to the Christian persecution of pagans, witches, and homosexuals.
What's you've written about persecutions of pagans, witches, and homosexuals by Christians is correct and so is what I wrote about Buddhist (and Hindu) Karma. I do accept that my comment was brief and hence not nuanced. But a Dalit in Hindu India will almost certainly recognise what I said as matching their experience, and a crippled beggar in Cylon (Sri Lanka) will too. No one wins a prize for being cruel. Buddhist cruelty is not made less cruel by the presence of Christian cruelty.
 
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What's you've written about persecutions of pagans, witches, and homosexuals by Christians is correct and so is what I wrote about Buddhist (and Hindu) Karma. I do accept that my comment was brief and hence not nuanced. But a Dalit in Hindu India will almost certainly recognise what I said as matching their experience, and a crippled beggar in Cylon (Sri Lanka) will too. No one wins a prize for being cruel. Buddhist cruelty is not made less cruel by the presence of Christian cruelty.

What you see as cruel is more aptly called indifference. Buddhism doesn't teach a deontological moral ethic. And should we judge a religion by the most base behavior? I am afraid that Christianity would fare no better. Just as there are many nominal Christians, there are also many nominal Buddhists, for whom it is primarily a cultural identity and source of ethical normativity.

For every St. Francis or Mother Theresa in Catholicism, you can find the Buddhist equivalent. There are Buddhists that opened orphanages or cared for lepers, similar to Catholic saints.
 
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The Liturgist

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What you see as cruel is more aptly called indifference. Buddhism doesn't teach a deontological moral ethic. And should we judge a religion by the most base behavior? I am afraid that Christianity would fare no better.

Orthodox Christianity would, positively. So too would some of the smaller Protestant churches.

But not the Congregationalists, because alas as you know we used to be Puritans and were guilty of convicting people of witchcraft and hanging them based on spectral evidence, that is to say, dreams (which the Orthodox understand to be frequently influenced by demonic activity for evil purposes, like causing someone innocent to be killed) when we should have arrested and imprisoned Cotton Mather and his ilk in a mental health facility. In my career as a Congregationalist minister this caused significant embarrassment to me, as did the conduct of Oliver Cromwell and other disagreeable historical figures. Although the large number of prominent Congregationalist abolitionists is a comfort and something the UCC and CCCC and Orthodox converts of Congregationalist heritage should celebrate.

For every St. Francis or Mother Theresa in Catholicism, you can find the Buddhist equivalent. There are Buddhists that opened orphanages or cared for lepers, similar to Catholic saints.

Prove it. Go through every saint in the Roman Catholic martyrology, including those shared with the Orthodox, such as St. Basil of Caesarea and St. Nicholas of Myra, which by the way also includes our most glorious Lady Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, and the Holy Apostles and the Illustrious Protomartyr St. Stephen and the Forerunner St. John the Baptist, and all Holy Prophets and other Saints of the Old Testament (St. Isaias and St. Elias being particularly venerated, but in Tehran there is, or was, a Roman Catholic Church, under the patronage of St. Abraham). and find at least one unique Buddhist equivalent whose actions precisely balance the scale. Otherwise you are speculating.

Simply on the basis of the time factor what you say is highly unlikely, and even more unlikely if you were to add in all of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox saints, particularly given the relative size of the religions. And also not all Buddhists who do good work are venerated by all Buddhist sects and cults, or even known about.

If we are to admit speculation, I would speculate Christianity has had far more martyrs than Buddhism, and indeed there is some reason to suspect Buddhist complicity in the genocide against Christians of the Church of the East started by the evil Muslim warlord Tamerlane, since somehow Buddhism survived in Tibet, and even copied the hierarchy of the Church of the East as well as aspects of our worship, but the Christians of Tibet were exterminated despite being People of the Book who Tamerlane and his sons who continued the genocide after his death should have protected, whereas the Buddhists according to Islam are “kafirs”, idolaters, and are to be converted or destroyed. For that matter it seems strange Buddhism survived Tamerlane in both China and Mongolia, but not Christianity.

And then Buddhists themselves murdered the Christians of Japan, and this is not speculation. Whereas there have been no instances where members of the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox church have conducted genocidal campaigns Buddhists. Indeed with regards to genocide and specifically Oriental Orthodoxy, the Syriac Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox in particular have an unblemished record, as our most pious friend @dzheremi can confirm. Alas if only the Byzantine Empire hadn't dealt so barbarically with the Samaritans and other nominally Eastern Orthodox regimes had been better behaved.
 
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Orthodox Christianity would, positively. So too would some of the smaller Protestant churches.

But not the Congregationalists, because alas as you know we used to be Puritans and were guilty of convicting people of witchcraft and hanging them based on spectral evidence, that is to say, dreams (which the Orthodox understand to be frequently influenced by demonic activity for evil purposes, like causing someone innocent to be killed)

This happened in every Christian church in western Europe at the time, it wasn't primarily a sectarian phenomenon. It didn't help that King James I himself was a fervent believer in witchcraft and did much to promote this kind of superstition.

Prove it. Go through every saint in the Roman Catholic martyrology, including those shared with the Orthodox, such as St. Basil of Caesarea and St. Nicholas of Myra, which by the way also includes our most glorious Lady Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, and the Holy Apostles and the Illustrious Protomartyr St. Stephen and the Forerunner St. John the Baptist, and all Holy Prophets and other Saints of the Old Testament (St. Isaias and St. Elias being particularly venerated, but in Tehran there is, or was, a Roman Catholic Church, under the patronage of St. Abraham). and find at least one unique Buddhist equivalent whose actions precisely balance the scale. Otherwise you are speculating.

There's too many to mention them all. Milarepa, a medieval Tibetan holy man, is probably the most obvious example, somebody comparable to St. Francis or any number of other "holy fools". In Japan, there is the example of Kenji Miyazawa, a much loved early 20th century novelist and philanthropist from Iwate prefecture, who wrote the famous Japanese poem Ame mi no Makezu or Unbeaten by Rain, about the aspiration to a life of simplicity and service. He wrote it on his deathbed after contracting pneumonia helping peasants. Miyazawa underwent a religious conversion as a young adult, and joined the Nichiren school of Buddhism, which values service and human development as the realization of enlightenment.

Here's an excellent English-language video about Miyazawa's life:


In the earliest Buddhist sutras, the Tripitaka and Agamas, it is recorced that once the Buddha cared for a sick monk who had been abandoned, chastising his disciples, "If you do not care for each other, who will care for you? He who would nurse me, let him nurse the sick". The Buddha's most beloved disciple, Ananda, was the one who was most known for caring for the physical needs of others in the congregation.

I would suggest watching the relatively recent film Tashi and the Monk, about Lobsang Phuntsok, who runs an orphanage in the Indian Himalayas. There's alot of wisdom in Phuntsok's life that transcends religious creed.


If we are to admit speculation, I would speculate Christianity has had far more martyrs than Buddhism,

There are over 4 times as many Christians as Buddhists. Many countries that are Buddhist, in theory, like Vietnam, actually have indigenous folk religion as the primary religion that people actually practice.

and indeed there is some reason to suspect Buddhist complicity in the genocide against Christians of the Church of the East started by the evil Muslim warlord Tamerlane, since somehow Buddhism survived in Tibet, and even copied the hierarchy of the Church of the East as well as aspects of our worship,

The hierarchy in Tibet is based off Lamaism, and it isn't at all analogous to Orthodoxy. It's also likely that Christian monasticism itself was influenced by pre-Christian religious patterns, quite possibly from Indian sramanas.

And then Buddhists themselves murdered the Christians of Japan, and this is not speculation.

This was primarily for political rather than religious reasons. The Japanese didn't want to fall victim to European empires, as happened with the Filipinos, and Portugal and Spain were using Christianity as a tool of colonialism.
 
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The Liturgist

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There's too many to mention them all.

Unless you can give me a spreadsheet that line by line proves there are as many Buddhist saints as Catholic saints, I have to regard that comment as an unproven (and in my view, unlikely) conjecture.
 
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Unless you can give me a spreadsheet that line by line proves there are as many Buddhist saints as Catholic saints, I have to regard that comment as an unproven (and in my view, unlikely) conjecture.

Is the validity of a religion something verified by the numerical preponderance of saints? Somehow, that logic doesn't seem right. Reducing the question of religious validity to a numbers game trivializes the nature of religion.
 
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