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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Where does "allah" say...
- Thread starter ApplePie7
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Again, there is no period after The Truth.
Grammatically, The Truth is linked to only Jesus Christ, which comes after the word innama.
This is irrefutably stated by the classic grammars and lexicons.
In fact, The Truth is an epithet used all across the Koran for Jesus Christ.
Not allah.
We can already see your understanding of the text has morphed from the googled Yusuf Ali translation of no more than (in parenthesis, of course, as these words are not in the Arabic) to not more than pretty soon you will realize that means only as in only Jesus Christ is The Truth just like this very same ayah proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son.
Since the Koran is composed of >50% Biblical Book of Revelation material to begin with, it is most appropriate that the authors of the Koran would state that there is no doubt whatsoever about it.
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elwill
Senior Member
i don't know what is the relation between grammer and what you doing with the verse
give me the grammer basics you depend on
why then christian arabs not realized that !!!!
arab depaters themselfs never raised these points , are you more smart than them in thier language !!!!
may by you didn't realize yet , that i'm perfect in arabic than any other language
i actually used to get the help from english translations to communicate with you , i never read the quran in english , i read it and memmorize it just in arbic
quran and bible are not comparable in any aspect
bible have some of the truth , quran have all the truth (from my view)
bible contradict with itself , quran dosn't
bible not preserved , quran preserved
bible contains errors and wrong facts , quran dosn't
bible not exist in the original language of jesus , quran exist in the language of mohammed (pbuh)
bible contain uncomplete chapters with unknown authors , quran is perfect
there are no comparable between them
christians believe and trust thier bible by thier heart , but scientifically and logically and historically bible not authorized to trust (no offence)
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beamishboy
Well-Known Member
Hi elwill and beckysoup61,
I want to be totally fair. I don't know applepie7 in real life and I have never met him and I have never spoken to him outside of the forums - if you can consider our various postings as some form of communication. So there is no reason for me to take his side unfairly.
I don't know Arabic at all. I find it a very beautiful language - the squiggly writing is easily the most beautiful that I've ever seen. And boy, the sound of it is so musical and lovely! When I heard it in the movie "Fitna", I saved a copy of the movie only to listen to the Arabic reading of the Quran. It's such a lovely song. I thank elwill for giving me links to various websites where I can hear the Quran read.
But I don't know a word of Arabic and I would never dare to take anyone on. What I find impressive about applepie7 is that he not only takes all the Arabic Muslims on, he always has the last word. Most people just give up. Why do people give up? You only give up if you have lost. Eg. if you tell me the words "Baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" means that the idea of the Trinity is wrong, I'll take you on the wording. I'll show you that the word "name" is singular when it should be plural if the three are to be totally disconnected in every sense. I will draw you to examples in English where you talk about something is done in the name (singular) of the king but in the names (plural) of the king, the emperor and the Czar. I can do it because I know the basic rules of English.
If applepie7 always succeeds in an argument of this sort, there can only be one meaning to me. He's right.
Beckysoup61 asks me why I don't trust someone who's a native Arab speaker. My answer is simply that if the native Arab speaker is right, he won't back out of an argument. He will show why the other guy is wrong and that other guy would not be able to counter him. Applepie7 always succeeds in countering any opposition, be it on Arabic grammar, syntax or vocabulary. One possible reason is as he has told us, the Arabs today speak a different form of Arabic from the Arabic of the Quran. That would put everyone on an equal footing and applepie7 with his scholastic knowledge of Quranic Arabic clearly is the winner.
I'm not being biased. I'm just being fair and anyone who is impartial will have to say (from the many threads that I've seen) that applepie7 is right. It's probably my fault that I sometimes sound too excited in my praise of applepie7 and that makes everyone think of me as a silly kid. If I adopt this adult tone, it should be ok. It's just that this sort of tone is difficult to sustain. Hehe.
I want to be totally fair. I don't know applepie7 in real life and I have never met him and I have never spoken to him outside of the forums - if you can consider our various postings as some form of communication. So there is no reason for me to take his side unfairly.
I don't know Arabic at all. I find it a very beautiful language - the squiggly writing is easily the most beautiful that I've ever seen. And boy, the sound of it is so musical and lovely! When I heard it in the movie "Fitna", I saved a copy of the movie only to listen to the Arabic reading of the Quran. It's such a lovely song. I thank elwill for giving me links to various websites where I can hear the Quran read.
But I don't know a word of Arabic and I would never dare to take anyone on. What I find impressive about applepie7 is that he not only takes all the Arabic Muslims on, he always has the last word. Most people just give up. Why do people give up? You only give up if you have lost. Eg. if you tell me the words "Baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" means that the idea of the Trinity is wrong, I'll take you on the wording. I'll show you that the word "name" is singular when it should be plural if the three are to be totally disconnected in every sense. I will draw you to examples in English where you talk about something is done in the name (singular) of the king but in the names (plural) of the king, the emperor and the Czar. I can do it because I know the basic rules of English.
If applepie7 always succeeds in an argument of this sort, there can only be one meaning to me. He's right.
Beckysoup61 asks me why I don't trust someone who's a native Arab speaker. My answer is simply that if the native Arab speaker is right, he won't back out of an argument. He will show why the other guy is wrong and that other guy would not be able to counter him. Applepie7 always succeeds in countering any opposition, be it on Arabic grammar, syntax or vocabulary. One possible reason is as he has told us, the Arabs today speak a different form of Arabic from the Arabic of the Quran. That would put everyone on an equal footing and applepie7 with his scholastic knowledge of Quranic Arabic clearly is the winner.
I'm not being biased. I'm just being fair and anyone who is impartial will have to say (from the many threads that I've seen) that applepie7 is right. It's probably my fault that I sometimes sound too excited in my praise of applepie7 and that makes everyone think of me as a silly kid. If I adopt this adult tone, it should be ok. It's just that this sort of tone is difficult to sustain. Hehe.
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elwill
Senior Member
i differ with you beamishboy
you need to be more open minded to realize why anyone leave the depate , the reason not always because of fail , specially if you found yourself don't know what we talking about (i mean this issue of arabic langauge )
but sometime (for myself) feel that my depate with the other side is lost of time , some depaters not depate with you to know your openion or to know your understanding or even to find answers , they just depate with you without seeking any information from you .
in this kind of depates you find yourself repeat your words over and over , and make you feel that continue in talking is useless
sometimes also when two sides depates in specific point , each side represent his view , although two sides are still not convinced with the other . the discussion may be end in this point
he knew and accepted my view even if he not agree with me , and i understood his view and accept it even if i'm not agree with him
the purpose from the discussions here for seeking the knowledge from different views and different sides not for challenge to know whom will leave the depates first
there are many big mouses in these depates whom talking in vain and with ignorance , you should to learn how to pick the usefull knowldge
i think if applepi7 find himself so perfect in arabic language , so he should to talk with them (arabs) to proof his point , not to come here in non_arab forums and talking about how he understood from arabic quran what arabs (muslims & christians) didn't understood
what a silly idea to find someone came to any muslims and say to them : your arabic quran say that jesus is God !!!!!
what about if he said that to arab muslims !!!!!!!!!!!!!
you need to be more open minded to realize why anyone leave the depate , the reason not always because of fail , specially if you found yourself don't know what we talking about (i mean this issue of arabic langauge )
but sometime (for myself) feel that my depate with the other side is lost of time , some depaters not depate with you to know your openion or to know your understanding or even to find answers , they just depate with you without seeking any information from you .
in this kind of depates you find yourself repeat your words over and over , and make you feel that continue in talking is useless
sometimes also when two sides depates in specific point , each side represent his view , although two sides are still not convinced with the other . the discussion may be end in this point
he knew and accepted my view even if he not agree with me , and i understood his view and accept it even if i'm not agree with him
the purpose from the discussions here for seeking the knowledge from different views and different sides not for challenge to know whom will leave the depates first
there are many big mouses in these depates whom talking in vain and with ignorance , you should to learn how to pick the usefull knowldge
i think if applepi7 find himself so perfect in arabic language , so he should to talk with them (arabs) to proof his point , not to come here in non_arab forums and talking about how he understood from arabic quran what arabs (muslims & christians) didn't understood
what a silly idea to find someone came to any muslims and say to them : your arabic quran say that jesus is God !!!!!
what about if he said that to arab muslims !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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beamishboy
Well-Known Member
Hehe, yes, it does appear that that is my role. But I'm really impressed with his knowledge. It's very novel but he backs up every statement of his with so much scholastic zeal. There is a huge wealth of knowledge whenever he goes into the Arabic. I don't know most of what is being said, but I can tell how well-researched and well-argued something is. You have to be fair to me. How many 13 year olds do you know who can go into Arabic or understand these things. 99% of them won't even bother to debate in these forums.
I tend to wax lyrical when I'm impressed with someone. I don't see anything wrong with that. I admire the scholarship and I'm not ashamed to say I don't know much about it.
But I understand elwill's point. He does not agree with applepie7's interpretation. To me, it doesn't really matter because it won't surprise me if the Quran goes against our beliefs. It belongs to a different religion from ours, doesn't it?
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What not many people knew is that Apple Pie claimed the Quran was written by Christians and he agreed with the Quran that Jesus was 'no more than a prophet'. That will be something that any Christian will like to swallow.
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beamishboy
Well-Known Member
You may have taken what applepie7 says out of context. If that is true, why would he try to show that the Quran implies a trinitarian God?
But even if applepie7 has a view that is different from most Christians' it does not change the fact that he is arguing about the Quran and rather than attacking his views personally, why don't you address the points he's made about the linguistic part of Arabic in the Quran. Or perhaps, like most of us including me, you don't know Arabic.
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True.
False.
The authors of the Koran proclaim that Jesus is God Almighty
.....that He was crucified until death upon the cross....that He was singularly resurrected from the dead...that He will return again upon a Cloud....that He will wage war with Satan (i.e. "allah" and co.).....that He will judge the dead...and that His Elect will reside with Him forever in Heaven.
All this is one sura.
Sura 86.
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That's right....why doesn't he....?
Why don't any of them...?
The answer is because they don't want to know The Truth.
They like feeling "safe" inside the islamic ignorance zone.
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What Apple Pie will not want you to discuss:
1. Who were the Christians who he said wrote the Quran? Why would this Christians not preach the bible to the Arabs but instead wrote the Quran and says it is from God? How come there were no records of Christians writing the Quran?
2. Why should we rely on his 'translation' of the Quran instead of the classical translations like Yusuf Ali, Pickhall, etc
3. Some of his findings actually put Christians who questioned the Quran in a bad light. For example, he agreed that the Quran does not spell the trinity as Father, Jesus and Mary. (somehow he agrees that it was the christians who misunderstood the Quran on the trinity)
4. Quoting from the Quran, Apple Pie wrote that Muhammad is a prophet. He even made a bold statement that "we are told point blank that Jesus Christ is a “messenger”, much to the chagrin of most Christians who claimed Jesus was something else.
You can read this discussions at http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6838314&page=22
5. Apple Pie will not tell you how beamishboy will suddenly appear when Apple Pie appeared in this forum, and quickly disappear when Apple Pie disappear.
1. Who were the Christians who he said wrote the Quran? Why would this Christians not preach the bible to the Arabs but instead wrote the Quran and says it is from God? How come there were no records of Christians writing the Quran?
2. Why should we rely on his 'translation' of the Quran instead of the classical translations like Yusuf Ali, Pickhall, etc
3. Some of his findings actually put Christians who questioned the Quran in a bad light. For example, he agreed that the Quran does not spell the trinity as Father, Jesus and Mary. (somehow he agrees that it was the christians who misunderstood the Quran on the trinity)
4. Quoting from the Quran, Apple Pie wrote that Muhammad is a prophet. He even made a bold statement that "we are told point blank that Jesus Christ is a “messenger”, much to the chagrin of most Christians who claimed Jesus was something else.
You can read this discussions at http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6838314&page=22
5. Apple Pie will not tell you how beamishboy will suddenly appear when Apple Pie appeared in this forum, and quickly disappear when Apple Pie disappear.
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beamishboy
Well-Known Member
Islam_mulea,
Obviously you are trying to say that applepie7 and I are the same person. Wrong. I believe applepie7 lives in the US. I live in a different continent. If you are as linguistically gifted as applepie7, you will notice that I write British English whereas his English is distinctly American. But I don't think you are gifted there. Applepie7 knows the language of the Quran whereas you don't.
Actually, I just realised one more difference between applepie7 and me. He writes it as "Koran" but I use the exotic spelling "Quran".
Why is it necessary for you to go in a different direction? Instead of arguing on the facts, you seem to want to attack applepie7. You're attacking the famous beamishboy as well!!! Tsk! Tsk!
You dishonestly accused applepie7 of saying that Jesus was only a prophet and no more. I'm glad he has cleared that up. Your statement was false.
Stick to the facts and don't get personal, my dear.
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beamishboy
Well-Known Member
Yo! Applepie7 must be asleep now because it's pretty late in the US. But why am I still awake? It's early morning now!!!
So, Islam_muler, I hope you will stop this ridiculous accusation that applepie7 and I are the same person. Focus your attention on the argument in the thread. But if like me, you don't understand applepie7's posts because they are too scholastic and because our knowledge of Arabic is zilch, I guess there's not much else you can say except that applepie7 and I are the same person. Why don't you suggest that I'm the Ayatollah, spying on the website to see who I can issue a fatwa against?
Bismillah... (Oops, I had better not say more or I'll reveal my true identity. Hehe).
My real name is......oops, sorry, they don't want me to say it here. I'll just show you my photo:
So, Islam_muler, I hope you will stop this ridiculous accusation that applepie7 and I are the same person. Focus your attention on the argument in the thread. But if like me, you don't understand applepie7's posts because they are too scholastic and because our knowledge of Arabic is zilch, I guess there's not much else you can say except that applepie7 and I are the same person. Why don't you suggest that I'm the Ayatollah, spying on the website to see who I can issue a fatwa against?
Bismillah... (Oops, I had better not say more or I'll reveal my true identity. Hehe).
My real name is......oops, sorry, they don't want me to say it here. I'll just show you my photo:
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Already discussed at length in another thread.
You are free to rely on whatever "translation" you want.
However, none of the ones that you mentioned give any reasoning whatsoever for why they rendered it as they did.
We do.
They don't.
The authors of the Koran explain what the Biblical Trinity is not - by citing examples of what it is not.
They also highlight what the Biblical Trinity is by also showing examples of what it is.
The Koranic "Muhammad" is an epithet for the Biblical Jesus Christ.
The epithets of Jesus Christ are many, both in the Holy Bible and, later copied into the Koranic opus.
One epithet in both books is that of a messenger. No where does it ever state that He was "no more than a messenger"...as brother Elwill showed us...
Jesus Christ is God Almighty in both books, as well...
Does this bother you?
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Montalban
Well-Known Member
Any of them? Well they've engaged you in debate here. At least elwill has. I think you're being unfair. You don't criticse Beamishboy for non-debate. All he's done is post here that he thinks you're right. And then again, and then again, and then again. Like a cheer-squad of one.
Certainly some wish here to raise a past mistake of yours (which you surely must be thinking of here)* however I look forward to your question being answered by Moslems regarding your original OP (you split your own thread, but more of that in a moment). I thought too perhaps they have a 'royal we'. Your own response in post #22 suggest this... that when talking to their god they use singular, but when he's talking its plural.
I think elwill is wrong to suggest that nothing in Arabic was written down prior to the Koran (post #17)
Then you start a new topic in post #23!
Your discussions with elwill over three/trinity in fact point to why the Koran was not written by Christians - because Chrisitans (we who believe in the Trinity) would not be suggesting that Christians believe in three gods.I also think ApplePie's argument that there was no 'period' between "the truth" and "Jesus Christ" might be flawed.
Here's why, as an example.
When the Bible was first written there was also no slits into verses and so on. All letters were most likely in capitals as minscules (lower case) weren't polularised until the Carolingian court.
So a verse might read
(Matthew 10:29-30)
ARE NOT TWO SPARROWS SOLD FOR A PENNY YET NOT ONE OF THEM WILL FALL TO THE GROUND APART FROM THE WILL OF YOUR FATHER AND EVEN THE HAIRS OF YOUR HEAD ARE NUMBERED
(if in fact spacing existed, I don't know if it did)
Now simply because a period doesn’t exist between FATHER and AND doesn’t mean that a person reading this would not know that it is in fact a point to stop as one does at the end of a sentence. Unless you're to argue that scholars arbitrarily split these up into sentences.
I think ApplePie’s theory might be flawed unless he can show that in Arabic readings they would be confused as to where in lie the breaks because even their people spoke a living language where people pause, and change inflections etc.
*with your theory of the Koran written by Christians there was massive holes in that theory that you wouldn't discuss, such as why Chrisitans with a perfectly adequate Bible would decide to write a book in a highly metaphorical language for the Arabs.
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