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Where does "allah" say...
- Thread starter ApplePie7
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Sura 108 is a great place to witness the uniplurality of deity as expressed by the authors of the Koran...
Observe that 108.2 directly calls-out the Lord (“rabb”
as singular – where just in the previous ayah it mentioned a plural deity as giving the gift – but now you are to give thanks to a singular God – even though He was just described as being plural...
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beamishboy
Well-Known Member
Wow, I never knew before that even the Quran points to the concept of our Trinitarian God. Very good thread.
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elwill
Senior Member
Wow, I never knew before that even the Quran points to the concept of our Trinitarian God. Very good thread.
off course the quran points to the concept of trinity
171 - O people of the book (christians) commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and his word, which he bestowed on Mary and a spirit proceeding from him: so believe in God and his apostles. say not trinity: desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is he) above having a son. to him belong all things in the heavens and on earth, and enough is God as a disposer of affairs
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elwill
Senior Member
2 - We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran, in order that ye may learn wisdom.
3 - We do relate unto thee that most beautiful of stories, in that we reveal to thee this (portion of the) Quran: before this, thou too was among those who knew it not.
3 - We do relate unto thee that most beautiful of stories, in that we reveal to thee this (portion of the) Quran: before this, thou too was among those who knew it not.
7 - Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Quran: That thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her, and warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt: (when) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing Fire.
163 - We have sent thee inspiration, as we sent it to Noah and the messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David we gave the psalms.
105 - We have sent down to thee(o'moahammed) the book in truth, that thou mightest judge between men, as guided by God: so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;
34 - We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear (God).
47 - And thus (it is) that We have sent down the Book to thee. So the People of the Book believe therein, as also do some of these (Pagan Arabs): and none but Unbelievers reject Our Signs.
48 - And thou(o'mohammed) wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (Able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.
49 - Nay, here are Signs self evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.
50 - Yet they say: Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord? Say: The Signs are indeed with God: and i am indeed a clear Warner.
51 - And is it not enough for them that We have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.
48 - And thou(o'mohammed) wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (Able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.
49 - Nay, here are Signs self evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.
50 - Yet they say: Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord? Say: The Signs are indeed with God: and i am indeed a clear Warner.
51 - And is it not enough for them that We have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.
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Three points of error here...
The word "trinity" simply does not exist in classic Arabic.
The word used here is to denote three.
The text states not to say "three", as this is NOT what the Trinity is.
Thus, we have a Koranic confirmation of what it is not....no problem here...
Secondly, when you fail to take the time to study Arabic, then you default to using a faulty rendering, as you have just done.
Please show us the Arabic words (no more than)...and (far exulted is he above having)...hint....you won't...they never appear in this text...thus, more abrogation of the original word.
Thirdly, this ayah states very clearly that Jesus is the Son.
Please put forth some effort into your replies...thanks...
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elwill
Senior Member
Three points of error here...
The word "trinity" simply does not exist in classic Arabic.
The word used here is to denote three.
The text states not to say "three", as this is NOT what the Trinity is.
Thus, we have a Koranic confirmation of what it is not....no problem here...
Secondly, when you fail to take the time to study Arabic, then you default to using a faulty rendering, as you have just done.
Please show us the Arabic words (no more than)...and (far exulted is he above having)...hint....you won't...they never appear in this text...thus, more abrogation of the original word.
Thirdly, this ayah states very clearly that Jesus is the Son.
Please put forth some effort into your replies...thanks...
it's very funny to ask me studying arabic
anyway , the word of arabic is "thalatha " which literally refer to the number 3
say not trinity: desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is he) above having a son.
say not three: desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is he) above having a son.
i have to know if any of christian's members here feels any differents between two translations ?
anyway if you don't like the 1'st one you can consider the 2'nd one there is no contradictions between them
about your claim that this ayah states very clearly that Jesus is the Son.
why you didn't describe the verse in some details from your experience of arabic language as you claim
i'm waiting to know how experience you are in the arabic language
salam
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Don't say "three" what?
If the verse means "don't say three Gods," then it is accurate to say Christians do not believe in three Gods.
Where in the Qur'an is it reflected what Christians actually believe?
The closest that the Qur'an comes to "trinity" or "three" is Allah, Jesus and the Virgin Mary.
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beamishboy
Well-Known Member
I think I understand this better. The Quran does not deny the Trinity. It denies the concept that there are three Gods. That's something Christians deny too.
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elwill
Senior Member
Perhaps an analogy will help to understand the point that the use of the pronoun "We" implies no plurality when the person for whom it is used is one.
For instance, even earthly kings and queens use this pronoun to express their majesty and supremacy. If Queen Elizabeth II uses "We" for herself, nobody misunderstands that she is more than one.
Allah is much more justified in using this honorific for Himself, as He is the Real Sovereign.
anyway beamishboy , i will not force you to understand it by my view
but quran is revealed in arabic language , so i transmit the arab culture and arabs understanding for thier language
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beamishboy
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I think linguists say that this royal "we" is a strange feature of the English language and some European languages. It's not common in Semitic languages and certainly not so at the time when the Quran was written. I think it's very wrong to seek to compare a different language with modern English and how Queen Elizabeth would say it. You must stick to the original Arabic of the Quran. I don't believe it's the same as English today.
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The authors of the Koran often times proclaim what the Biblical Trinity is, by pulling in examples of what it is not...
يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا
Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladunlahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan
4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and certainly they say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son,truly his what is in the heavens and what is in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.
In this classic Islamic one-hit-wonder we are told not to refer to the one “allah” as “Three” because he is not the result of counted things….and yet, in the very ayah itself it lists-out directly that he is Father, Son, & Spirit.
This is a classic Koranic example in which the authors display their understanding of the Biblical concept of the Holy trinity, and give the example of what it is not by the usage of the word “Three”…
Now...please show us the Arabic words rendered as "far exulted is he above having"...
يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا
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I know that is what you would like the Qur'an to say, but it does not. The true Trinity is not refuted in the Qur'an, which leads me to believe the author of the Qur'an didn't know what Christians believe.
Where does your Allah say Father, Word/Son and Holy Spirit as the concept of the Trinity? It never does.
"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." Quran 5:116
This Surah is correct. Jesus never said to take Him and His mother for two gods beside Allah.
Because,
that is not what the concept of the Trinity is.
I think it quite reasonable to believe that Muhammad thought the Trinity consisted of Allah, Jesus and Mary.
I must tell you one of the first Muslims I ever spoke to on an Islamic discussion board said exactly that and I couldn't convince him otherwise. Muslims don't get this from Christians, but from the Qur'an.
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anatolian
Senior Veteran
Salam.Good question you have asked."three what?" As we read it doesn't say "three Gods" or another association which is related to the number three.It just says "three".This can be aplied to every kind of shirk/association/polytheism that are made about three.This verse can pretty be interpreted as "don't say three persons" since in the mainstream Christianity there are three persons of God.It says Allah-as one Person-is only God, not God the Father.You seem to me someone who is well knowledged about Quran,technically.You should have realized this style of Quran before.Quran generalizes the blesphemies most of the time.But I think this verse directly refuses your Trinity.
The Food:17 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth? And Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them; He creates what He pleases; and Allah has power over all things.
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