Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
- Mar 7, 2002
- 14,273
- 465
- 52
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Originally posted by Br. Max
SO reformationist - there has been a question burning in my heart for a long while now . . . How long have you been a frustrated preacher??
Originally posted by Blackhawk
Okay I am kind of confused if this was meant to me in some way but I know that Calvinism teaches what you say. I hope I did not give the impression that I did not. In fact I agree with this view. Man in his natural state will never choose God not because he physically could not but because in his natural state man does not want to choose God. Both Jacob Arminius and Calvin agree here.
The question is what does God do from there? Does He partially regenerate all (previent grace) so that one can make a choice or does God fully regenerate only some and they all make the choice to choose God because He is irrresistable? This I believe is the real question and point of contention between Calvinism and the theology of Jacob Arminius.
Originally posted by Br. Max
reformationist: Maybe we could do a collection here and put you through seminary and end that frustration
Originally posted by Reformationist
I'm going to strive to give you the benefit of my doubt because, to me, this makes no sense. "Good" is defined as "what God says is good." How can man choose "good" but it not be what God says is "good?" If something is other than what God says is "good" then that would seem to negate it's goodness. If all man can choose is what God would say is "evil," then wouldn't that mean that all of man's choices are "evil?" "Good" is not determined by what man says is "good." So, saying that man can choose what God says is "evil" makes the decision evil, regardless of what man determined as "good" or "evil."
Before I address the rest, let me once again point out that "foreknew" DOES NOT just mean to "know before, or know about." It implies an obvious relationship, a relationship of intimacy.
It amazes me how people regularly seek to prove their intelligence in a way that shows they have no understanding of what they're talking about. If the verse says that "those that God foreknew (had an intimate relationship with) He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" then those that He foreknew WILL BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON. To imply that God predestines, that is, determine the destination of prior to [the foundations of the world], and then there are some that were so predestined and yet were not conformed to the image of Christ is to blatantly say that God made a sovereign effort to bring something about and it didn't happen. How do you even worship God if He cannot bring about His own Will. It's one thing to think that man can resist God's power, as odd as that is, but to think that God cannot bring about that which He purposes to bring about is ridiculous.
Huh???!!!
Double Huh???!!! God predestined everyone but not everyone enters that predestination??? What is predestination? A building?
Ooooohhhh, I get it now. God has to have His creations permission and agreement before the death of God incarnate was of any value in a person's life. Yeah. That makes sense.
God bless
Man in his natural state will never choose God not because he physically could not but because in his natural state man does not want to choose God. Both Jacob Arminius and Calvin agree here. The question is what does God do from there?
Originally posted by cenimo
Blackhawk
1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good and it pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to know the truth.
Originally posted by Reformationist
Sorry bro. I misunderstood.
That is definitely a point of contention. Let me see if I can address it. [/B]
First off, we should establish what regeneration is. The reformed view is that regeneration is the act of God alone, in which He renews the human heart, making it alive when it was dead. If God only "partially regenerates" man then that is to say that He only partially brings him back to life. IMO, one of the foundational things that must be understood is that not only won't fallen man choose that which is right, i.e., believing in the Truth of God's Word, of his own volition, he is dead. You see, we aren't sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. It's our very nature. [/B]
Now, let's just say it was possible to "partially" bring someone back to life and that meant that, spiritually, they were redeemed to an indifferent disposition. By indifferent I don't mean apathetic. Rather, I mean that he has no particular inclination towards good or evil and can choose either equally. So, here we have this indifferent being that now has to make a choice. What is that choice? Do I put my faith in God that He will give me the credit for Christ's righteousness and not impute the penalty for my sins? That's the question, right? Now, if we say that salvation is by grace through faith we are saying one of two things. Either we agree with the reformed view that salvation is of God and it is by His grace alone that we are saved, or we take the view the God is bases our salvation on some inherent merit that is found in us, apart from Him, i.e., us having faith, and us putting it in Him. The problem posed with the latter view is that if God saves us based on anything then it ceases to be grace. By it's very definition grace is unmerited.
So, the real question is, "Do we believe in a God who is a Savior, or merely a God who is a potential Savior?"
God bless [/B]
Originally posted by SnuP
All religion is an establishment of what is good. Good in mans eyes. Helping and old lady across the street is always good. But if the action is based out of some need for to not feel evil and not out of love for God then the action is not Godly or Holy.
I never said that God can not bring about what He purposes. I only said that He will not make man choose Him. Choose to be saved.
How can a man have an "intimate relationship" with God before he knows God?
Heres were what you suggest doesn't make sence. If foreknew means having an established relationship before recieving His son and even before a person has developed the ability to have a relationship, then are you endorsing the belief that all souls existed before they were born? If only by recieving Christ am I able to even aproach God, how can God have an already existing relationship with me? I feel as though I am running in circles trying to figure out how you could think that.
Predestination is a plan, a predetermined desire. We must agree with God inorder for that desire to be fulfilled. You are haveing trouble understanding my stand point because you start with the assumtion that man has no mans will is worthless and has no part to play with in God's plan. I start with the assumption that God desires that man choose, and that he chooses life rather then good or evil. I start with the garden, and say that this is the reason that God created man. For us to come into agreement with Him. For us to choose. For us by our own will to choose Him, to choose life. To forsake the knowing good or knowing evil, to forget about right and wrong and only see God. But you assume that man has no choice.
If no man ever recieved the gift then the gift become valueless. And that would be a sad thing.
P.S. Its kind of rude to start a dialog by insulting the person you wish to talk to. I am niether ignorant of the subject nor trying to sound intelligent.
I agree completely with this statement.
Jeremiah 1:4,5
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
<SUP></SUP>"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
This book reveals how dangerous and manipulative it is when you take pieces of Scripture and whole verses out of context to build false doctrine. It also reveals how one false teaching will have many other tributaries of false doctrine attached. This book has been sent to missionaries in Argentina, Australia, South America, and many other countries. It is one of the most complete books in answering the Scriptures set forth by the Predestinationalists. In the back are all the Scriptures used, with a quick page reference. For a complete study on the subject of Predestination, this book is a must for your library.
Originally posted by cenimo
Let's say you go somewhere and there is this gift package with your name on it that has been sitting on a shelf for years- decades. Someone reaches on the shelf and says, "This is for you." You still have to accept the gift.
The gift in this case is salvation and heaven.
...think the thing that blows my mind when reading the statement that for Christ's sacrifice to be of any merit man must "receive" or "accept" it from their own free will is that it makes Jesus the actual Savior of none, but only the potential Savior of all. This raises the serious theological consideration that, potentially, all men could have rejected the manifestation of Christ's saving work. Tell me, if it is man's action of receiving or accepting that makes Christ's work of any merit what, pray tell, would have happened had no one "accepted" His works as valid? Does that mean that Christ would have died in vain? It is a option that has to be considered. Additionally, if it was God's sovereign Plan to save all mankind, and we both know that not all will be saved, does that mean you think God's Plan failed?
Originally posted by cenimo
Good stuff, but to answer the bolded part, no, of course not. Christ, God in human form, knew that some would accept it and some would reject it.
It puts god in the role of puppet master, and that is an example of Christ dying in vain. Just MHO.
* While stationed in Germany, three of the guys in my section rented an aprtment in a German house. They found a trunk in the attic with WW II memorobilia in it, to include copies of Mein Kampf in the original German. The translator found several passages in it where Hitler said, " I am only doing what God told me to do."
Originally posted by cenimo
Well, I hesitate to introduce this part of this, but here goes...If God does indeed deem some people to be born not chosen, i.e., they are predestined to be bad people, and then he condemns them for fulfilling a role he gave them
at least logically (ouch!, I know) there are only two possible explanations, generational curses, or punishment for misdeeds in a past life (reincarnation).
Just MHO, but I cannot see how Calvinism can fit in with the Great Commission - to go out and spread "the Good news", and have peole ask, "Is this available to me?" and then tell them, "Maybe, if you are elect" is really reaching.
Originally posted by Reformationist
I don't understand. You say that you agree that man, in his natural state will never choose God. Yet, you contend that man must first willfully receive the gift before the gift can be made manifest. Those are opposing statements.
God bless
Originally posted by cenimo
Reformationist
Brother, I know what you are saying, but since The Great Commission is targeted at the unchurched, those who aren't sure of their salvation, and those who haven't heard the Gospel, those How Can You Be Sure You Are Going To Heaven approaches are sure less confusing.
Matthew 8:8-10
God Bless
Originally posted by SnuP
Its quite simple. God courts us. Coaching and drawing us to salvation. Without Him introducing Himself and loving on us then we would never know what to choose. If you only know the two options of good and bad then you will never know the greatest option, God. You have to see the third before you can choose it.
When I talk about good and evil I'm not just talking about good from mans point of view, but also good from God's point of view. Good being defined as anything that is positive and benificial, but lacking God's imput. Doing something that is Godly has nothing to do with trying to do something good. When you do something Godly you do it because of the relationship that you have with God, not because of some ethics that you have. Godly is outside of the realm of right and wrong, good and evil. It is in the realm of relationship which has no right and wrong only love. Choosing what is Godly is not choosing an action, it is choosing a person. The reason that choosing good or evil is always evil in God's eyes is because you are choosing something else other then having a relationship with Him. Even choosing to do exacly what God says but in your heart still keeping a distance from God is evill to God because you are not relying upon the relationship that is supposed to impower you and sustain you to do what God has asked.
God would prefer you to never do anything else except love on Him then to do everything that He ever asks outside of the relationship that He has ordained.
If we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son then in order to fulfill the predestination we should be doing what the Son did. And what did the Son do? He always looked to the Father, and did what ever the Father did. He rested soully upon the relationship He has with His Dad. He did not worry about what was right or wrong, He only did what the Father wanted. So we are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son right? Well I know very few people who are accually walking in a deep fulfillment of that predestination. When there is no longer good and evil for you, but rather there is only the Father, then you are experiencing the reality of the third and only real choice.
Does faith play a role in salvation? If it does then the truth is that in order to be saved you must make the discission to start trusting God.
P.S. I don't believe that we exist before we are born. Therefore it is impossible to have a relationship untill a person has the ability to think, and love (ie. after they are born). God's foreknowledge of us is simply that, He knew who we would be and what we would be like and what we would choose. I don't believe that the Bible supports the idea of the preexistance of the human soul. If you have some scriptures that in your opinion supports such an idea, I would love to see them.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?