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Where Do the "non-thelazo" Children Stand in Relation to Jesus's Warning?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Waterwerx, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

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    I could not find a relevant tag so I'm going to add my own constraints to avoid a lot of unnecessary clutter. This thread has in view the 70th week is unfulfilled and still yet to come, the rapture occurs at some point before the tribulation, Israel and the Church are distinct from one another. The aforementioned things are not open to debate here and is for those of us interested in examining the topic of this thread in light of those accepted views. Your cooperation is appreciated!

    Selected verses that raise the question and subtle differences, keeping in mind the distinctions between the 3 Gospels and their themes in which they appear:
    Matthew 24:19-21 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."
    Mark 13:17-19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter. For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be."
    Luke 21:23-24 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations."

    The time pertaining to Jesus's warning: mid-tribulation or 3.5 years into the tribulation.
    Who is He referring to: pregnant women and women who are still nursing babies(i.e. they're still being breastfed or the equivalent of it).

    These verses raise the question of why Jesus would specifically warn this particular group as opposed to using more expansive terms that would include children that are still too young to fend for themselves but are no longer breastfeeding? It's as if an entire generation of children is "not there" or given consideration regarding this.
     
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  2. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    I think HMFJ had a thread about this. It's a good question. Nobody likes my answer to it. I don't think that it's because all the kids are raptured away and the mothers are sad at the loss of their children. Why would Jesus specifically warn this particular group? As opposed to using more expansive terms that would include children that are still too young to fend for themselves but are no longer breastfeeding?

    Why wouldn't He have mentioned crippled people, the very old, ill or the morbidly obese people? These people would also have a hard time to run for the hills.

    "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    "In those days" are the days just prior to "for then there will be great tribulation". They are the days that we can SEE the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not to be. The development of an unborn baby AND the maturation of a young child hold the keys to the timing of seeing the abomination and realizing the start of the great tribulation. The development of these young children hold to a very predictable timetable measured in months.

    I saw this mother with a child in a stroller waiting to cross the street. I don't know how old the kid was, but he looked big, too big for the stroller. So I Googled to try and find out how long before a kid leaves the stroller and can be counted on to walk by himself for any distance. (I have no first hand experience that I can recall.)

    Right now I think that from the time that the abomination of desolation is seen, until "for then there will be great tribulation", there is a delayed reaction. As much as 24 months. It's a guaranteed sure thing that when you see it standing there that great tribulation is on the way, it's a sure thing. It can't be stopped. Don't worry about your house or your coat or your car or any of your things that you own anymore.

    But if you are a pregnant woman OR a woman with a young baby on the day that we can see the abomination standing where it ought not to be, that child will never live long enough to be able to flee on his own two feet.

    "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
     
  3. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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  4. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

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    We already know there will be children born during the tribulation. One of the points I'm trying to make is that Jesus's woe seems to leave out children above a certain age group(if "age" could be used as a point of reference) where they are not dependent on breastfeeding or baby bottle for their nourishment. When following the line of a pre-trib rapture, this appears to possibly further support it since we know that all believers will be raptured, as well as children below the age/mental development of accountability(which includes adults). It could be one explanation why Jesus chose to reference only that group since I would imagine that even having a 3-5 yr. old child would be just as rough during those times.
     
  5. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    How do we KNOW there will be children born during the tribulation?
     
  6. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
    Mark 13:17 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
    Luke 21:23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

    This is extrapolated from the above verses since Jesus is referring to the time during the great tribulation when the Jews will have to flee and all hell breaks loose on earth. As it was in the days of Noah, life is going to continue "as normal", so to speak(which includes having children), until sudden destruction, 1 Thessalonians 5:3, "For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape."
    Matthew 24:38-39 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
     
  7. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    As discussed on the the thread in the link, why the woe? It is my thought and some others, that children, especially infants and toddlers, will be taken in the rapture.Notice the woe is to the parents not the children. And as it was in Noah's day, Noah's sons were close to a hundred years old at the time of the flood, but they did not conceive children until after the flood.
     
  8. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

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    The reference to Noah's day prior to the flood was used to illustrate that people will be carrying on with life as usual(including having children) all the way up until judgment starts.
    It should be remembered that Noah & his household were distinct from those who God destroyed from the earth. Through Noah and his household, God was preserving a righteous man and his family, among other things. In the tribulation, converted believers of that time period will not have the same protection as Noah and his family.
    As for Noah's sons not having children until after the flood, it doesn't give a specific reason for this. It could be that they did not take a wife for themselves until near the time of the approaching judgment and/or God made their wives barren until after the flood, or Noah told them not to know their wives until after the flood. Nobody knows the reason(s) beyond speculation.

    Another thing I haven't given much thought to is a "remote" possibility the warning contained in the woe may indicate some kind of implemented eugenics program, but I wouldn't give it much weight. The warnings written in Matthew and Luke indicate the Jews when it references the Sabbath and "wrath upon this people", but then in Mark it lacks the same specificity, which to me would indicate both Jews and gentiles are affected.
     
  9. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    OK can we try to find common ground here? Look at the scripture.
    1Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Now Noah and his wife, their three sons and their wives are the eight referred to in this scripture. There were no children, Just the eight adult souls were saved by water.
     
  10. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Quite true. God could have shut up the wombs of the wives.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It may have something to do with the Jews thinking that the person is the messiah for the first three years three months of the seven years, thereabouts. Which they will be raising families, thinking they have entered the messianic age. Because it says in 1thessalonians5, when they say peace and safety sudden destruction will come upon them.

    But really I don't know. Maybe is it just saying it will be hard for some to flee into the mountains. The time window to flee from when the aod is first set up as far as I can tell is 75 days. setup on day
    (2520-1335) 1185 of the seven years. And the Jews flee, as the two witnesses battle the beast, until day 1260, when they are killed... closing the window for the fleeing.
     
  12. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    You all are missing the fact that children are NOT mentioned in the woe, just the parents.
     
  13. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

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    They are inseparable. There can't be a pregnant woman without having the baby developing inside of her, just as you can't have a woman nursing a baby without the baby being present. Who is the woe addressing? Those(Gr. "ho") who are pregnant and those nursing babies. Who can be pregnant and nurse babies? Women. And I would go as far as to say that even men can nurse babies using a baby bottle if we're willing to expand on the term.
    Anyway, if pregnancies and children are not possible during the 7-year tribulation, it creates contradictions with those woes in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and it also conflicts with OT prophecies regarding the Day of the Lord such as Isaiah 13:18 :
    "Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
    and they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
    their eye will not spare children
    ."

    Isaiah 13:6-8 indicates this prophecy, from where the above is taken from, relates to the great tribulation:
    "Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!
    It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will be limp, every man’s heart will melt, and they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; they will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; they will be amazed at one another; their faces will be like flames
    ."

    If no children are conceived or born during the tribulation, then Isaiah 13:18 doesn't make much sense.
    Taking all of these things together, it doesn't indicate that no children will be born during the tribulation period. I'm assuming that this is what you're pointing at by using Noah's household, their lack of children, and their physical preservation in the Ark as a type of model for this, but it doesn't fit in light of the other Scriptures. Martyrdom of those converted during the tribulation will be at an all-time high, so we can't apply it to that group; Christians and any children under the age of accountability prior to the tribulation period would have already been raptured out, so the model doesn't fit them either. Only one group of people are physically preserved "through" the great tribulation and they are found in Revelation 12:6 which refer to a large group of Jews. Does this group abstain from knowing their wives and having offspring? It's possible, but unlikely, because they do not make their flight to the wilderness until mid-way through the 7-year tribulation period, which means they will be carrying on as they normally do up until that point, hence the warning of woe as both Jews and gentiles will be having children during the tribulation.
     
  14. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    You are not seeing it like I see it. Try to see it from a woman's pov, ok, hard as it may be. :)

    If I am pregnant with my first baby and the rapture happens and my baby is raptured, suddenly I am not pregnant any longer. If I am nursing my first born child and my baby is raptured out of my arms, in theses instances there would be much anguish and woe.
    No, it does not contradict these passages. The fruit of the womb are children. Isa.13:18 does not mention infants and toddlers as Jesus specified.
    Yes, I am thinking that God will extend the same grace in the endtime. He often repeats what He has done before. As I noted in the other thread,a lot of countries are reporting low birth rates.
    URL="Will There Be Children?"]Will There Be Children?[/URL]
    So imho, God has already started limiting the number of babies in the Earth.
    This is a very good observation. Thanks! :) Yet we know that the two witnesses are raptured in the middle of the tribulation.

    Rev. 11: 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

    11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    So, IMHO, it is possible that the remaining children could be raptured at this time.This would indeed be a cause for tremendous woe .
     
  15. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

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    If I'm understanding you correctly, you're concerned with the unborn children of pregnant non-believers when the rapture occurs. Nobody really knows with 100% certainty, but in regards to non-believers, my simple theory is that the unborn children are not snatched out of the womb because this would physically abort the pregnancy. On the other hand, in regards to believers, when both mother and unborn child are raptured, the issue of an aborted pregnancy isn't raised because they are both being "changed", as odd or contradictory as that may sound.

    Read the entire verse:
    "Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
    And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
    Their eye will not spare children."

    The first sentence states their bows will dash the young men to pieces. The Hebrew term used here for young men is broad and can refer to anyone male or female ranging from an infant/baby to an adolescent. The same goes for the other term used in the third sentence. However, notice the shift between the second sentence and the third sentence and ask the question why it is written in such a way.
    Pity denotes feeling of compassion and in the absence of that which is found in the third sentence indicates regard toward something that isn't physically seen, such as a developing baby that is still in the womb. Then in the third sentence it says their eye(i.e. what can be seen with it) will not spare(pity, regard, spare) children. If you try to plug in the same English word for all three sentences in that verse, it ends up saying the same thing three times to the same "children", which doesn't make sense. You can even ask a Jewish Rabbi about it since they have a much better grasp of the Hebrew language than all of us here that are not Rabbis.

    Are we talking about multiple raptures here? There's only one rapture, and it occurs before the start of the tribulation. This is pre-trib.
    The two witnesses are not raptured. The rapture is imminent(meaning it can occur at any time before the tribulation) and happens instantaneously(in the twinkling of an eye). Its not an observable event where non-believers on the whole earth watch all believers get taken up into heaven in a cloud. There's nothing mentioned or even hinting that others are taken up into heaven with the two witnesses in those verses.
    The cause for woe is the extra difficulty that will be placed on those who are pregnant and/or have nursing children due to having to flee and try to survive during the great tribulation. Due to the war, pestilence, and famine that will be widespread on the earth, many of them will have to give their life to save their children or end up dying with their children, meaning they will have less of a chance to survive. Some may even choose to abandon their children for their own attempt at survival, and in light of some of the things people have done to their children nowadays, I can see some of them doing this.

    On the reverse side of things, the idea that God is going to spare the wicked from experiencing the full horror of their works during the great tribulation by excluding any and all children, babies, etc., from it just doesn't agree with Scripture. There are numerous other accounts in the Bible where God "cleans house" or sends judgments and spares not even the children. The only difference is those children caught up in it will not be held accountable or face judgment afterwards and will be in Christ's kingdom. Their blood will be upon the people responsible for bringing the judgment(s) and causing their deaths.
     
  16. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Yes the pregnancy would be interrupted which would be the cause for woe; but the child would not be lost. There is no scripture reference to that ever happening before, but Lord Jesus said this period of time will be the worst that has ever happened on the Earth in the past. I don't see our Father subjecting these innocents to His wrath or abandoning them to demonic hordes that the scripture says will be manifesting on the Earth at that time.
    They are resurrected after 31/2 days. They ascend into the clouds, just as Lord Jesus and Elijah. IMHO this is a type of rapture, maybe not as quick as the pre-trib rapture when everything happens in the twinkling of an eye. When Lord Jesus ascended, OT saints went with Him, so, though it is speculation on my part,babies and toddlers could go up with them.
    Who says there is only one rapture? I believe in the pre-trib rapture, but, if you picture the way the harvest is gathered in the OT, there is a harvest called gleanings. I picture the rapture like this.
     
  17. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

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    *Leviticus 19:9-10*
    'Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 'Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.
    *Leviticus 23:22*
    'When you reap the harvest of your land, moreover, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field nor gather the gleaning of your harvest; you are to leave them for the needy and the alien. I am the LORD your God.'"

    Ruth 2:2-3
    And Ruth the Moabitess said to Naomi, "Please let me go to the field and glean among the ears of grain after one in whose sight I may find favor." And she said to her, "Go, my daughter." So she departed and went and gleaned in the field after the reapers; and she happened to come to the portion of the field belonging to Boaz, who was of the family of Elimelech.

    Job 24:6
    "They harvest their fodder in the field And glean the vineyard of the wicked.

    Isaiah 17:5-6
    It will be even like the reaper gathering the standing grain, As his arm harvests the ears, Or it will be like one gleaning ears of grain In the valley of Rephaim. Yet gleanings will be left in it like the shaking of an olive tree, Two or three olives on the topmost bough, Four or five on the branches of a fruitful tree, Declares the LORD, the God of Israel.
    Isaiah 24:13
    For thus it will be in the midst of the earth among the peoples, As the shaking of an olive tree, As the gleanings when the grape harvest is over.

    Judges 8:2-3
    But he said to them, "What have I done now in comparison with you? Is not the gleaning of the grapes of Ephraim better than the vintage of Abiezer? "God has given the leaders of Midian, Oreb and Zeeb into your hands; and what was I able to do in comparison with you?" Then their anger toward him subsided when he said that.

    Jeremiah 6:9
    Thus says the LORD of hosts, "They will thoroughly glean as the vine the remnant of Israel; Pass your hand again like a grape gatherer Over the branches."
    Jeremiah 49:9
    "If grape gatherers came to you, Would they not leave gleanings? If thieves came by night, They would destroy only until they had enough.

    Micah 7:1
    Woe is me! For I am Like the fruit pickers, like the grape gatherers There is not a cluster of grapes to eat, Or a first-ripe fig which I crave.

    *Deuteronomy 24:19-21*
    "When you reap your harvest in your field and have forgotten a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. "When you beat your olive tree, you shall not go over the boughs again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow. "When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, you shall not go over it again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.

    I still do not see how this has anything to do with children or a second rapture. As I said, there's only one rapture and we can't backpedal and say there's a slower second one.
    The ones I highlighted in blue above from the OT are regarding the Law of the harvest.

    If we are making this assumption because we feel it would be unjust or cruel for any babies and children born during the tribulation to go through it, then we're not looking at the big picture and instead are focusing on the temporal, the physical. When they die, they already have a one-way ticket to heaven since they are not held accountable, making the cruelty/unjustness of their deaths irrelevant in regards to their permanent relationship with God. However, there will be an accounting of their blood, and it will fall upon those who are responsible: the wicked and unrepentant. Just as the blood of Abel and all others throughout history will fall upon them.
    I've already previously used the Flood and judgment of Sodom & Gomorrah as examples. Here are two more:
    Lamentations 4:10 women cook and eat their own children in the siege.
    Matthew 2:16-18 Herod murders every male child under the age of 2 in the region.

    I really don't see how the tribulation is going to be any worse for them with the exception that its going to be world-wide in scope, just as it was in Noah's flood. All of these things indicate the difficulty and gruesomeness of the tribulation, which in all of it's grotesqueness, will either convert individuals or harden their hearts.
     
  18. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Yet, we see the two witnesses being raised from the dead and ascending at the command to come up hither. I guess you can call it whatever you want.
     
  19. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

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    I would simply refer to it as the two witnesses being resurrected and called up to heaven. There's no other Scripture that would lead us to think that more than the two witnesses are intended in Revelation 11:12 . There's no reason to tie the "Come up hither" of Revelation 4:1 with that of Revelation 11:12.

    The idea that this is a second rapture of a mass of people, in this case, children, is based off of the sole belief that the woes in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, is a warning to women that their babies/children are all going to be suddenly taken from them in another rapture-type event. It just doesn't fit the OT prophecies regarding the tribulation where children & babies are involved.
     
  20. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    It may not. But I just submit it as a possibility. The scripture does not tell us what causes the woe for those with child and nursing . But we know that supernatural events will be happening at that time. Plus we see no children in Noah's lineage until after the flood. The scripture is silent about children before the flood. Noah's children were one hundred years old at the time. Really this is where my thought originates. We know those children were married. We know that they were on the ark for at least a year.There is no reason to believe that they did not touch their wives in a years time. So we see that something supernatural happened to prevent pregnancy. And we see all three sons procreating after the flood. So we cannot ignore the supernatural. I know some Christians do not believe in the supernatural, but, I believe in it, for our God is able to do exceeding, abundantly above all we can ask or think.
     
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