Where do Christians stand?

AV1611VET · Aug 9, 2011

Hi, Bex -- nice to meet you and welcome to Cf --

Let's take a closer look at this:

Bex. said:
I don't wish this to become an argument for or against any theory;

Fair enough.

Bex. said:
From the outside looking in, it appears that the theory of 'Young Earth Creationism' is actually being accepted as fact by many and fervently defended by some, despite the overwhelming evidence at hand.

Now that you've made your point that there is 'overwhelming evidence at hand' against YEC; you don't want this to become an argument for or against any theory?

All that information you gave us about creationism in the U.S. and the Bible Belt in particular; yet all you want to know is how YEC is faring in Australia?

Are you planning a crusade against them or something?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling you made your point, and are going to end up with a low post count here.

Greg1234 · Aug 9, 2011

theFijian said:
If Young earth, 6-day Creationism had always been Christian dogma you'd expect it to appear in all the early church creeds wouldn't you?

God called the light "day." Are you rejecting God's light?

theFijian · Aug 9, 2011

Greg1234 said:
God called the light "day." Are you rejecting God's light?

Are you addressing anything I actually said?

sfs · Aug 9, 2011

tyronem said:
By and large throughout NZ Christians, Creation is absolute fact, a non-negotiable. Evolution is considered the secular process for trying to eliminate God. Which is a good portion of the reason as to why it was taken hold of so greatly.

Survey data suggest otherwise. It looks like roughly half of New Zealand Christians accept evolution of humans.

tyronem · Aug 9, 2011

theFijian said:
If Young earth, 6-day Creationism had always been Christian dogma you'd expect it to appear in all the early church creeds wouldn't you?

It didn't need to be because everyone believed their Bible

Only when the foundation of faith (genesis) began to be attacked and Christians did nothing does the age of the earth become an issue.

keith99 · Aug 9, 2011

Papias said:
Bex, did you see the data I posted in Post #10? It may have been missed because of the page break, but it showed that about 43% of Christians in Australia are likely YEC. (that's about a quarter of the overall population, because only about 64% of Australians are Christian to begin with).

I also bemoaned the tendency of people to state their own opinion, which not what you asked for.

Papias

Actually 32% of that 43% believe in Evolution guided by God. There are very unlikely to be YEC's and even the 11% are reasonably likely to not be YECs. That depends on soem very poor understanding of Scripture, at least for the 'Strong' YECs who believe in a 6000 year old earth.

keith99 · Aug 9, 2011

theFijian said:
If Young earth, 6-day Creationism had always been Christian dogma you'd expect it to appear in all the early church creeds wouldn't you?

Not sure of that. It is not central to salvation, so lacking it being in dispute why would it show up in the early creeds one way or the other?

If Wiki is correct then it seems Calvin and Luther believed in a Young Earth.

Still I wonder if any of the YECs out there can come up with a sermon of statement of faith saying this is an important belief.

AV1611VET · Aug 9, 2011

keith99 said:
Still I wonder if any of the YECs out there can come up with a sermon of statement of faith saying this is an important belief.

Why?

Just to appease you, or so you guys can have something official to trample?

Split Rock · Aug 9, 2011

AV1611VET said:
Why?

Just to appease you, or so you guys can have something official to trample?

Why do you think so negatively about our requests??

tyronem · Aug 9, 2011

keith99 said:
Actually 32% of that 43% believe in Evolution guided by God. There are very unlikely to be YEC's and even the 11% are reasonably likely to not be YECs. That depends on soem very poor understanding of Scripture, at least for the 'Strong' YECs who believe in a 6000 year old earth.

lol, a poor understanding of scripture?

What part of "God made the Heaven and Earth and all that in them is in 6 days" is poorly understood by creationists and YEC

What part of "God created man in his image" and that image being fully human is poorly understood by YEC?

What part of "On the sixth day God created Man" is poorly understood by YEC?

What part of a Global flood that Destroyed all life except that which was on the Ark is poorly understood by YEC?

You get a poor understanding of scripture when you attempt to apply faulty science made by fallible men to the infallible inerrant word of God.

TE and Old earth views compromise scripture and this compromising of scripture has led to ridiculous views such as homosexual ministers being allowed, abortion being allowed and many other abominations being allowed into modern Christianity.

theFijian · Aug 9, 2011

tyronem said:
It didn't need to be because everyone believed their Bible

lol so why did they bother formulating any creeds then since "everyone believed their bible"? Nice try though

Only when the foundation of faith (genesis) began to be attacked and Christians did nothing does the age of the earth become an issue.

Really...hmmm so what was that Reformation thing all about?

tyronem · Aug 9, 2011

theFijian said:
lol so why did they bother formulating any creeds then since "everyone believed their bible"? Nice try though

Creeds are a statement of belief / faith that were shared by a community. Effectively your creed could be the evolution creed. In essence creeds don't mean much at all except to those that hold them.

Creeds for Christianity also never denied the authority of scripture..... They affirmed it...

Really...hmmm so what was that Reformation thing all about?

The right and accurate revolt from the catholic church that was teaching heresies such as idolatry and the ability for man to forgive sins in Christs place. The Catholic church today still teaches heresies in the face of scripture.

LinuxUser · Aug 9, 2011

Bex. said:
Hello everyone,

I come to you as a fascinated, curious atheist, however I wasn't always so. Raised in a Catholic family of Irish descent, Sunday service and all it entails aren't entirely foreign to me. However, even all those years ago, it was generally accepted amongst those at my church that the Book of Genesis and the idea of Creationism, especially the 'young earth' theory, were merely good stories. No one I knew seemed to pay the story of the earth's creation (according to the Old Testament) much creedence, it was just seen as a harmless explanation invented by the author when little was known on the subject. Moreover, the science of evolution was never discredited as it was seen as foolish to deny irrefutable evidence. Neverthless, the believers kept believing and the church still prospers and continues to do the good work today that it did all those years ago.

With the advent of the internet and the high level of communication it allows, it appears to me that my church was more the exception than the rule. From the outside looking in, it appears that the theory of 'Young Earth Creationism' is actually being accepted as fact by many and fervently defended by some, despite the overwhelming evidence at hand. However, most of the supporters I see appear to be of U.S. origins, most notably the Evangelical Christians from the Bible belt. It leaves me wondering where mainstream Australian Christians stand on this issue.

Please understand, I don't wish this to become an argument for or against any theory; I fully respect your beliefs and your right to have them, I'm merely curious to know if 'Young Earth Creationism' is accepted as fact amongst the mainstream Australian Christian population?

Thank you!

I am YEC

tyronem · Aug 9, 2011

sfs said:
Survey data suggest otherwise. It looks like roughly half of New Zealand Christians accept evolution of humans.

Not in the Presbyterian or Baptist community of which make up the majority of Churches in NZ. I've been to a number and 100% in attendance accept creation as fact exactly how the Bible says it is.

Who knows where they got their figure from and by those figures 65% of any belief of evolution in the church is just that it is probably true not definitely. So while we are conjecturing by probably they are probably not very well informed and just accept whatever they are told, and in reality probably don't care.

Bex. · Aug 9, 2011

Papias said:
Wikipedia has:
Australia
A 2009 poll showed that almost a quarter of Australians believe "the biblical account of human origins" over the Darwinian account. 42 percent of Australians believe in a "wholly scientific" explanation for the origins of life, while 32 percent believe in an evolutionary process "guided by God".

A 2010 survey conducted by Auspoll and the Australian Academy of Science found that almost 80% of Australians believe that evolution is currently occurring. 10% stated they do not believe in evolution, and a further 11% were not sure.

Thank you Papias, that has concisely answered my question.

Jazer · Aug 9, 2011

Bex. said:
From the outside looking in, it appears that the theory of 'Young Earth Creationism' is actually being accepted as fact by many and fervently defended by some, despite the overwhelming evidence at hand.

The facts seem to indicate that a day in Genesis is more then 24 hours and Noah's flood was not a world wide flood from our perspective. Other then that what "overwhelming evidence" do you have that YEC is not true? The YEC for the most part is very Bible based and we know that the Bible is true.

Jazer · Aug 9, 2011

tyronem said:
Me I believe what the Bible directly teaches and that the earth is young (less than 10ky, I don't hold fast to the genealogy because son can mean grandson or great grandson etc so I have no problem with under 10ky, and wouldn't necessarily say the earth is 6500yo and thats it. I'd even be ok with an old earth and young population but I see no need for it.

Adam and Eve show up in Ch 2. The Geneologys in the Bible are accurate and exact. Adam and Eve were real people that lived around 6,000 years ago in the Euphrates valley in the upper part of the Furtile Cresent. Just as Science says they did. The Valley follows the fault line between the Plates.

Bex. · Aug 9, 2011

Jazer said:
The facts seem to indicate that a day in Genesis is more then 24 hours and Noah's flood was not a world wide flood from our perspective. Other then that what "overwhelming evidence" do you have that YEC is not true? The YEC for the most part is very Bible based and we know that the Bible is true.

To answer that would reduce this discussion to an argument. I'm not going to do that.

It is fair to say our perspectives are poles apart, but my query has been answered.

Thank you.

LOCO · Aug 10, 2011

Bex. said:
Hello everyone,

Please understand, I don't wish this to become an argument for or against any theory; I fully respect your beliefs and your right to have them, I'm merely curious to know if 'Young Earth Creationism' is accepted as fact amongst the mainstream Australian Christian population?

Thank you!

It is not accepted as fact among the young Australian Catholic and Protestants that I know and associate with. It is viewed as pseudo-science.

LinuxUser · Aug 10, 2011

LOCO said:
It is not accepted as fact among the young Australian Catholic and Protestants that I know and associate with. It is viewed as pseudo-science.

Tis sad that

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