Where do Atheists and Agnostics get the basis of humans rights from?

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Skaloop

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This is a CHRISTIAN site so why are you referring to things that do not apply to us but to those of the Jewish faith?

It illustrates that God went into detail about rather mundane issues like the cutting of hair, but didn't bother to do so on more significant issues such as slavery.
 
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someguy14

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After sin did enter the world and before Mosaic law one can only speculate why God did apparently so little to combat evil but hey, men like to think how wise, rational and good they are and perhaps He was just letting men get a birds eye view of where these things take us ie to misery, pain and ultimate ruin.

Sin entered through a serpent stating, "ye shall not surely die", a lie. The devil is a liar and the father(maker) of it. Mosaic laws exposed those sins mankind were practising. As we read in John 15:22

"If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin."

When the Holy Spirit of God is come:

John 16:8-9
8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;"


Paul is not saying the law is bad. 1 Timothy 1:8 Paul is saying that the ones that are of God abide in God and abide in every instruction of God, with love. One is only able to accomplish the obedience with God, Himself. Love is the fulfilling of all that God requires.
 
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ThinkFreeDom

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I have always wondered this, and would like to know.

In my opinion, unalienable rights of all humans come from God.

But for someone who does not believe in God, where do they draw these rights from?

Moral codes have been observed and documented in many mammals, this is where we 'draw' human rights from. From our innate, evolved morality.

If human rights only came from God we would see a lack of human rights in secular countries, like Sweden, and well protected human rights in the most Christian countries, like the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Contrary to your position the protection of human rights has increased in parallel to the decline of Christianity in Western society. Why would that be if your god were the source?
 
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BondiHarry

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This is where we should probably agree to disagree. Most agnostics/atheists have read the bible, and it's precisely the fact we are no longer believers.

Funny that you mention context in your post, make the claim that most agnostics/atheists have read the Bible and cite that as the reason they are no longer believers. The conclusion that you have apparently reached that God justifies rape or slavery in the Bible just demonstrates you hold God responsible for the evil of men (and that you do not understand what you have read ... in context) ... so be it.

To be a "believer," one must justify and hand wave away all of the discrepencies and atrocities that were sanctioned by the god described in the OT. Even W.L. Craig has basically said, 'yeah, it's in the bible, but god made the rules, so it's, by definition, moral.' (paraphrasing of course)

I would ask you to describe some of these 'discrepancies and atrocities' but you've already made it clear you will judge God's word by your own carnal mind and not by His perspective of things.

One can only truly be honest about what's recorded in the bible after you take a step back and honestly and critically evaluate it's content - in context.

When one makes the decision to accept a book whole cloth, then you're forced to reconcile and justify - which is the exaxt opposite of academic integrity.

Are YOU being honest about what is recorded in the Bible? On rape and slavery you are not which doesn't speak well of 'academic integrity'.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Funny that you mention context in your post, make the claim that most agnostics/atheists have read the Bible and cite that as the reason they are no longer believers. The conclusion that you have apparently reached that God justifies rape or slavery in the Bible just demonstrates you hold God responsible for the evil of men (and that you do not understand what you have read ... in context) ... so be it.



I would ask you to describe some of these 'discrepancies and atrocities' but you've already made it clear you will judge God's word by your own carnal mind and not by His perspective of things.



Are YOU being honest about what is recorded in the Bible? On rape and slavery you are not which doesn't speak well of 'academic integrity'.

The discrepencies and atrocities in the bible are the ones you're already aware of. (Unless of course you haven't yet read them)
 
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someguy14

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Moral codes have been observed and documented in many mammals, this is where we 'draw' human rights from. From our innate, evolved morality.

If human rights only came from God we would see a lack of human rights in secular countries, like Sweden, and well protected human rights in the most Christian countries, like the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Contrary to your position the protection of human rights has increased in parallel to the decline of Christianity in Western society. Why would that be if your god were the source?

All that is not of God, fails.
 
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someguy14

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The discrepencies and atrocities in the bible are the ones you're already aware of. (Unless of course you haven't yet read them)

God is perfect. :)
The Creator of all is free to do all that the Creator desires. Not because I say, because He is. I agree. His wisdom is far beyond a mere creations wisdom. All that God has done, does and will do, is perfect. Each will have the opportunity to witness this at His appointed time. God is good, and His love for each of us is so magnificent.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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God is perfect. :)
The Creator of all is free to do all that the Creator desires. Not because I say, because He is. I agree. His wisdom is far beyond a mere creations wisdom. All that God has done, does and will do, is perfect. Each will have the opportunity to witness this at His appointed time. God is good, and His love for each of us is so magnificent.

Of course, actual evidence to support your assertions would be nice.
 
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blankgirl

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I think that both camps come from completely different frameworks of thought. The Christian camp conceptualises God as absolute truth, therefore, everything that He allows or does is right. The atheist/secularist argument is that our God as ultimate truth/goodness is but a human construct. From what I see, it's somewhat impossible for both camps to agree on anything because both are coming from different world views!
 
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BondiHarry

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The discrepencies and atrocities in the bible are the ones you're already aware of. (Unless of course you haven't yet read them)

Carnal man often dismisses God's justice and wisdom as "discrepancies and atrocities" but I no longer look at the Bible with the carnal mind I once had. God does not look at time as we do, has a far lower tolerance for evil than men do (like NONE) and since He can restore life as easily as He takes it what you consider to be an atrocity just demonstrates you either hate justice for the wicked or think the 'innocent' are somehow wronged by God removing them from the evil in the world and allowing them into heaven.
 
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selfinflikted

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I think that both camps come from completely different frameworks of thought. The Christian camp conceptualises God as absolute truth, therefore, everything that He allows or does is right. The atheist/secularist argument is that our God as ultimate truth/goodness is but a human construct. From what I see, it's somewhat impossible for both camps to agree on anything because both are coming from different world views!

The problem is, one camp believes things on faith - the other on evidence. Those that have only faith will never convinve those who base their worldview on evidence simply because there is no evidence for the claims made by the Christians.
 
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BondiHarry

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The problem is, one camp believes things on faith - the other on evidence. Those that have only faith will never convinve those who base their worldview on evidence simply because there is no evidence for the claims made by the Christians.

Christians have a great deal of evidence for the truth of God's word and it is because of this evidence that we can have faith in the things that God tells us about those things we cannot see or comprehend. On the flip side, those you claim believe in 'evidence' are actually busy denying a great deal of evidence because it refutes the world view they embrace.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Carnal man often dismisses God's justice and wisdom as "discrepancies and atrocities" but I no longer look at the Bible with the carnal mind I once had. God does not look at time as we do, has a far lower tolerance for evil than men do (like NONE) and since He can restore life as easily as He takes it what you consider to be an atrocity just demonstrates you either hate justice for the wicked or think the 'innocent' are somehow wronged by God removing them from the evil in the world and allowing them into heaven.

Replace "carnal" with "rational," and I would agree with you.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Christians have a great deal of evidence for the truth of God's word and it is because of this evidence that we can have faith in the things that God tells us about those things we cannot see or comprehend. On the flip side, those you claim believe in 'evidence' are actually busy denying a great deal of evidence because it refutes the world view they embrace.

The "world view" I hold is because of available evidence, not based on absence of evidence. Humans have attempted to explain what they do not understand with supernatural explanations. What makes you do different?
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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I think that both camps come from completely different frameworks of thought. The Christian camp conceptualises God as absolute truth, therefore, everything that He allows or does is right. The atheist/secularist argument is that our God as ultimate truth/goodness is but a human construct. From what I see, it's somewhat impossible for both camps to agree on anything because both are coming from different world views!

Of course they're different "frameworks of thought." People of religion begin with the answer, then accept data that supports their beliefs. A rationalist attempts to accept and evaluate all evidence and base their beliefs on the most parsimonious explanation.

Evidence is to be accepted, not believed in.
 
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blankgirl

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The problem is, one camp believes things on faith - the other on evidence. Those that have only faith will never convinve those who base their worldview on evidence simply because there is no evidence for the claims made by the Christians.

I can completely understand what you're trying to say. However, thinking this through, Christianity and atheism have something in common - both are characterized by certainty. For Christians, it's the certainty that drives the faith. It's the past experience, what we call the 'personal encounters with God' that make us certain that God will 'show up again' today. These perceived encounters are what validate specific scripture passages that speak of His faithfulness. When looking at those statements made by Christians in this thread, there is a consistent proclamation of His faithfulness and His goodness. This is what the believers experience for themselves. Hence they keep claiming that God is good, in response to the questions posed by your fellow atheist friends. These personal encounters become like 'evidence' to us, that God must be real, and that life's pain can be worth it because something good would come out of it somehow. We aren't exactly completely oppositional. The necessity for evidence in the believer's life of God's presence, perhaps experienced in the form of 'blessings', is there, for the believer to be able to conclude that nothing is ever truly in vain. So there is the belief that: Something will be salvaged from a painful experience, and God is moulding me. That, perhaps, in hindsight, God makes it well again, and lives that are wasted, or children that are murdered, might be compensated somehow, because God redeems. Only that perhaps, the atheist would argue from a scientific point of view, that manifestations are purely psychological. This type of view is empirical and fixed in its certainty that truth is and must be measurable, that it must be observable. Religious experiences are therefore purely subjective.So even here, there is a particular certainty that drives the belief in empiricism. I think both camps need some faith to sustain what both sides believe in.

For me personally, I can only say I don't have all the answers. I, too, find my faith puzzling at times. I might even be seen as backslidden by some for being so 'dull' or 'lukewarm', as opposed to being fired up for God and all defensive about Him. But I really don't have the answers. I can't say for sure that I can reconcile a loving Jesus who preached for the cause of the downtrodden with the God of the OT. I think that, however, it is very possible to dialogue with humility and hunger for a greater awareness and appreciation of others' perspectives. It is refreshing to be constantly challenged to think and interrogate my own faith!
 
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Skaloop

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Christians have a great deal of evidence for the truth of God's word and it is because of this evidence that we can have faith in the things that God tells us about those things we cannot see or comprehend. On the flip side, those you claim believe in 'evidence' are actually busy denying a great deal of evidence because it refutes the world view they embrace.

As LifeToTheFullest replied to another of your posts: Take a run at it, then.

Provide that "great deal" of evidence.

I also find it ironic that some of us are being accused of denying evidence because it refutes our world view by someone who rejects evolutionary theory.
 
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selfinflikted

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Christians have a great deal of evidence for the truth of God's word and it is because of this evidence that we can have faith in the things that God tells us about those things we cannot see or comprehend. On the flip side, those you claim believe in 'evidence' are actually busy denying a great deal of evidence because it refutes the world view they embrace.

You have no evidence aside from personal "feelings." Warm fuzzies do not constitute evidence. Unless, of course, you have something other that this. If this is the case, I ask you to present your evidence right here, right now.
 
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