Where did the healing miracles go?

[Hidden In Him]

I remember hearing about a Westerner visiting a country in Southeast Asia and made a normal prayer request to someone there. Their response was to gather a bunch of people together and pray half the night.

Exactly! They understand the power of corporate prayer, and stay after it collectively until they get their answer. Somewhat reminiscent of Acts 12:5-17. There's a quote on the use of corporate prayer by the early church that is also excellent on this. Trying to remember where.

They are where you find communities ... there is power in numbers, and God does more in communities where people's lives are intertwined and have come to know Christ.

Yep. The love believers develop for one another in closer-nit circles causes them to seek God more earnestly in prayer for each other. The Western mega-church phenomenon has us passing each other like ships in the night.

 

[prodromos]

Thanks for the link. I'm familiar with Justin Martyr, and I've read numerous quotes and passages from the others. I've yet to do a full reading of the Anti-Nicene Fathers, but it's coming. I'd find it interested to know exactly how the East and West both developed their thought, so maybe I'll take a look at The Ancient Way down the road.

By the way, I like some of the things included in the bottom of your posts (big fan of asceticism). If you can, think you could teach me how to upload an avatar and log in personal notes and stuff like that? Maybe you can just direct me to the right threads or something (not very internet savvy just yet, unfortunately). Also, is there a way for members to post messages to one another here? Unless I'm missing something, there doesn't appear to be a messaging system.

If you click on the username at the top of their post, a box should pop up with a brief description of the user and a couple of links, one of which is "start a conversation". Click on that and away you go.

 

[~Anastasia~]

So sorry! I meant to get back to this, and the technical issues (and being at work) distracted me.

Thanks for the link. I'm familiar with Justin Martyr, and I've read numerous quotes and passages from the others. I've yet to do a full reading of the Anti-Nicene Fathers, but it's coming. I'd find it interested to know exactly how the East and West both developed their thought, so maybe I'll take a look at The Ancient Way down the road.

There is a wealth of reading from the Ante-Nicene father's free online at ccel.org if you haven't run across that before.

I'm particularly interested in development of thought/theology over time too, but I first began looking at THIS end of history, and I'm finally getting satisfied with what I've managed to understand about that. I'd like to turn my attention to what you're describing as well, since I haven't gone very deeply into it yet, and I think it would be much more worthwhile.

By the way, TAW is just the forum here on CF for Eastern Orthodox. It's just a matter of popping in, saying hello, posting any questions there. My point was that many Orthodox (and we have some other regular visitors from other very Traditional communions) post there, and you could get better answers than I can give very quickly.

By the way, I like some of the things included in the bottom of your posts (big fan of asceticism). If you can, think you could teach me how to upload an avatar and log in personal notes and stuff like that? Maybe you can just direct me to the right threads or something (not very internet savvy just yet, unfortunately). Also, is there a way for members to post messages to one another here? Unless I'm missing something, there doesn't appear to be a messaging system.

I see @prodromos addressed messaging for you. You have to have something like 25 posts and 5 likes in order to be able to use it, so if you looked before that, you wouldn't have seen the options. Now you should be able to access it.

To add the signature, go into your profile and you should see a link to edit signature. I'll double-check what the link says and where it is found and update this post with more info.


ETA: Just click on your name in the colored bar at the top of the page with menu button choices. It should bring up a little pop-up with your choices about your profile. Click the one that says Signature, and it will take you to a page where you can put in what you like. That one has buttons for editing text (size, font, bolding, color, etc.) and things like smilies you can add. If you need more help, let me know. Or you can post in the Questions about CF (+Tech Support) forum.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Thanks for the help! I'm kinda inept when it comes to this kinda stuff, so if I fumble through it and miss something, I'll find you again.

Much appreciated : )

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks for the help! I'm kinda inept when it comes to this kinda stuff, so if I fumble through it and miss something, I'll find you again.

Much appreciated : )

You are most welcome. Glad to help!

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you click on the username at the top of their post, a box should pop up with a brief description of the user and a couple of links, one of which is "start a conversation". Click on that and away you go.

Thanks you as well, Prodomos. I just noticed your post.

 

[EmethAlethia]

I'd like to pose a question for discussion.
Where are the healing miracles and have you ever witnessed a true God driven miracle?

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Miracles (Works of power), casting out demons, prophesying ... are not even proof of being a Christian. The disciples of the lost Pharisees and Sadducee cast out demons, and it wasn't proof of their correctness before God.

Mat 12:27 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.

The question isn't whether the miracles, signs and wonders, casting out of demons ... is "real" the question is, do any of these things EVER indicate correct doctrines and beliefs EVEN IF they are "real". The answer to this question, regardless of the beliefs of anyone, is absolutely not.

The next question is, are all the signs, wonders, "Gifts" of the "Spirit" the norm for today or did they pass away with the completion of scripture. That is a long and involved bible study. Many dozens of pages. If you want that study, e-mail me and I will e-mail you back that study.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Isn't the question if they are important or not to ministry?

 

[EmethAlethia]

Isn't the question if they are important or not to ministry?

Since anyone, right with God or not, can have all the miracles according to Matthew, how does having them or not having them become a requirement when those lost and heading for hell have them?

Doctrine, beliefs, signs, wonders ... have nothing to do with Christianity or God, according to scripture. They may be essential for those who have false doctrines, false gospels, erroneous beliefs that won't result in salvation ... to continue believing their false beliefs just like those in Matthew 7, but what says they are essential to any real Christian ministry, and how can you tell the difference if their own members (Matthew 7 again) can't even tell that they aren't really Christians?

Next is why couldn't Paul even heal a man after his own heart, a fellow Christian and worker towards the end of his ministry. Was it a lack of faith on the part of Paul? Why the affirmation that God had mercy when years before every person who had a shadow pass over them was healed from all of their infirmities without any restrictions?

To start with we had:

Act 5:15 to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them.
Act 5:16 Also the people from the cities in the vicinity of Jerusalem were coming together, bringing people who were sick or afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all being healed.

Towards the end of the time scripture was being written we have:

Php 2:25 But I thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger and minister to my need;
Php 2:26 because he was longing for you all and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick.
Php 2:27 For indeed he was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, so that I would not have sorrow upon sorrow.

The question is, why make such a big deal over a fellow brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier of Christ being healed when even the slightest sickness "should have been" and "would have been" healed just with a shadows passing at the time recorded in the early church in Acts. Unless Paul lied about Epaphroditus or Paul's faith was lacking, there really is no way to explain this change if everything remained as it was in the early church.

But then this is just a small portion of the data that pertains to the topic. To be thorough and go through everything covers many dozens of passages, and even more pages of examination, word studies ... If anyone really wants to look through all of it, e-mail me.

 

[frettr00]

I was healed of mental illness and from a sickness as a child. The mental illness was healed when my parents prayed to St. John Neumann for intercession. The second healing occurred when I was bed ridden and my father layed his hands on me and prayed. I got up and started running around and was no longer sick.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Since anyone, right with God or not, can have all the miracles according to Matthew, how does having them or not having them become a requirement when those lost and heading for hell have them?... what says they are essential to any real Christian ministry, and how can you tell the difference if their own members (Matthew 7 again) can't even tell that they aren't really Christians?

Thanks for your reply. The remainder of your quote is an argument about whether or not they were happening, rather than whether or not they were important. So I'll just deal with the opening statements.

In answer to "how does having them or not having them become a requirement (i.e. to ministry)," the Lord stated in His word why signs and wonders were being demonstrated by the Spirit of God during New Testament times: to confirm His word. He did not leave it to either the Jews or the Gentiles to simply take His word for what He was saying. The fact that Satan was counterfeiting true signs and wonders with false ones demonstrates he understood their importance in confirming the word as well, does it not?

 

[EmethAlethia]

Thanks for your reply. The remainder of your quote is an argument about whether or not they were happening, rather than whether or not they were important. So I'll just deal with the opening statements.

In answer to "how does having them or not having them become a requirement (i.e. to ministry)," the Lord stated in His word why signs and wonders were being demonstrated by the Spirit of God during New Testament times: to confirm His word. He did not leave it to either the Jews or the Gentiles to simply take His word for what He was saying. The fact that Satan was counterfeiting true signs and wonders with false ones demonstrates he understood their importance in confirming the word as well, does it not?

I agree. Signs, wonders, miracles go along with the recording of scripture, confirming it's correctness and authoritative nature.
If prophesies "today" are trustworthy, if speaking and interpreting in tongues "today" is trustworthy, if all the miracles performed by the lost at the end of Matt. 7 were trustworthy then every statement made as a prophesy, speaking and interpreting of tongues ... today "should" be recorded and taught as scripture in every church in the world.

It should be noted that a belief that signs, wonders, miracles ... the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have passed away, ceased ... has noting to do with whether or not God "Can" still perform these things today. But even when they do, it doesn't mean they are from God or that the people involved are Christians / have correct doctrines. That is taught in the scripture as well.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree. Signs, wonders, miracles go along with the recording of scripture, confirming it's correctness and authoritative nature. If prophesies "today" are trustworthy, if speaking and interpreting in tongues "today" is trustworthy, if all the miracles performed by the lost at the end of Matt. 7 were trustworthy then every statement made as a prophesy, speaking and interpreting of tongues ... today "should" be recorded and taught as scripture in every church in the world.

Oops! My sincerest apologies EmethAlethia. I have been staring at this post ever since you wrote it, thinking I was looking at a third party who was somehow agreeing with my position (though not making a lick of sense out of it, which should have clued me in. Ha!).

Ok. This is an interesting position to take, and I actually agree with you. This is a position that even the few prophets I respect genuinely fear to take, not wanting to place the words the Spirit has given then on par with the level of scripture itself, in large part due to that fact that they are sometimes not sure if they have remembered exactly word for word the things the Spirit was speaking to them over the course of vast, multi-chapter vision. That having been said (and I know you will brand me a heretic for saying it), but your conclusion is a logical one, and I personally don't back down from it. I hold the authority of scripture to have primacy above all else, but I hold visions I believe as having been given by God virtually on the level of scripture. And they are indeed actually being recorded in books, and preserved in print. I don't think I'll list them for you, because I think if you had ears to hear what the Spirit was saying to the churches today, you would know about them already. Absolutely no offense intended. Please don't take that as an insult. It is not.

 

[PanDeVida]

I'd like to pose a question for discussion.
Where are the healing miracles and have you ever witnessed a true God driven miracle?

Anderson, "Where are the healing miracles..."

Anderson, the healing miracles went, in the opposite direction of the unbelievers.

Mark 6: 5And he could not do any miracles there, only that he cured a few that were sick, laying his hands upon them. 6And he wondered because of their unbelief, and he went through the villages round about teaching.

One can see miracles on a daily bases at Mass/Eucharist. What greater miracle than partaking of the Body and Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, that gives us Life and be raised not the last day.