Where did the Church first go wrong?

[Guide To The Bible]

I would say he is talking about the same thing I was. Someone taking the discussion in this thread down a different path by making the Catholics in this thread defending the Apostles into making that their defense of their being a Pope with the same Authority today as the man who first "stoop up". It was not about that, but the road certainly continued more and more steeply that way ever since the anti- Pope comments were given more and more weight.

Well it wasn't me that brought up the Catholics first! Laodacians they may be but they are still my brothers and sister in Christ.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I'm sorry to hear it. I would be embarrassed to associate myself with such repetitious, deliberately provocative, unnecessarily personal, and, frankly, nonsensical rants.

I sincerely hope you're not talking about me!

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Really loosely translated...
Our Savior's comand was to not leave Jerusalem until they received the gift He promised them-the gift of the Spirit.I think you mean Acts 1:26...The Holy Spirit guided them to choose Matthias, the result of the lots cast was the Holy Spirit's decision.It's very interesting to see that someone doesn't trust that what Jesus said, he did...

It was not the Holy Spirit guiding them as you mistakenly think because the Holy Spirit had not been given yet.

 

[Rick Otto]

WHERE!!??

That's a personal attack right there and an unfounded accusation!

He played that trick on me a few posts back. He does incredulity pretty convincingly too, if you're not paying attention.
Looks like Albion has earned a pass in the valley of the shadow of the dreaded anti-Catholicism tar and feathering.

 

[Rick Otto]

seems the curse of cf forums to be inappropriately nonorthodox

Bunker Mentality rules with an iron monobrow.

 

[Albion]

I sincerely hope you're not talking about me!

I'm not. And it's not about this thread only.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

He played that trick on me a few posts back. He does incredulity pretty convincingly too, if you're not paying attention.
Looks like Albion has earned a pass in the valley of the shadow of the dreaded anti-Catholicism tar and feathering.

Yep! and some of them also can't remember what has been discussed adnauseum.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I'm not. And it's not about this thread only.

I see

 

[Albion]

Looks like Albion has earned a pass in the valley of the shadow of the dreaded anti-Catholicism tar and feathering.

Doubtful. The provocateurs just switch off from time to time.

 

[Philip_B]

Where did Jesus teach us that the church was to draw lots? The only lots cast near Jesus was for his clothes as He hung dying for this evil world.

That was not the statement that I was making.
There are many instances of casting lots in the Bible.

In the Bible the practice was used in a variety of circumstances, including the selection of the scapegoat (Leviticus 16:8–10); the allocation of the tribal inheritance in the Promised Land (Numbers 26:55-56; Joshua 14:2; Judges 1:3; etc.); the determination of the families who had to relocate to give a proper distribution of the populace or of those warriors who had to go to war where only a percentage was required (Judges 20:9; Nehemiah 11:1); the order of the priests and their duties (1 Chronicles 24:5–19; Nehemiah 10:34); the determination of an offender (Joshua 7:14–18; cf. Proverbs 18:18).
​

The point I was making was simply that casting lots did not simply equate to a game of chance, but has an established biblical precedence for establishing the will of God in some situations.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I am not, you said that Paul rebuked Peter, which he did, but not for the reason you think.

Again for the third time, it was not about the reason it was the fact Paul rebuked Peter and Peter accepted it. If Jesus had made such a mistake choosing Paul then how come Paul bested Peter?

You are sorely confused, and I will say that I have not made a single stawman in this "debate".

You ve more than one time and such a lack of memory on your part is more than confusion.

You continue to pull out single verses out of context to try and prove how "lots were not for the Church." and I point out the full verses don't say what you think they say.

I'm still waiting for this verse you claim says that Jesus told taught them to practice lot drawing or that they must draw lots to replace Judas, or they must draw lots at all???

I am not way "out" as you seem to claim.

Yes you are, by several years?

 

[Rick Otto]

Casting Lots is a long established practice and very Old Testament. There is quite a good article about it here. Casting lots is more about being open to the divine, rather than the idea of a game of chance which seems to be what is being suiggested in some posts.
What is casting lots? | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Fair enough, and thank you.
Now please address the notion that doing so was contrary to the idea that 'to wait' was the instruction.
I haven't decided and since you schooled me a little, I'm interested in what you might have to say.
Thanks again.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

yes we've established that already, no problem.

Now who smearing! (not me)

Who knows, you might not ever see it?

I know my memory is getting bad too Can't wait for the incorruptible body

Better go back to the OP. This is getting repetitive

That's the first mention of gambling on this thread, if your memory wasn't so bad I'd say you where being troll like.

We keep going round in circles, and i keep telling you that Jesus never taught us to cast lots. He just said 'wait'.

Ahhr I think you've almost got it and actually God did work round their mistake. God always works round our mistakes.

Pointing out that no explanation have been given why it is OK for what probably everyone here today has done, (prayer followed by allowing a contingency to play out), and not OK when the Apostles did it. How is it a smear to point out the people claiming the Apostles doing just that were wrong but not wrong for anyone else to do it?

Still maintain drawing of lots is a better translation and probably more accurately describes what they did, as well as something more easily done in a purely random nature by a large group of men hiding in private than would be throwing things and counting how many landed in Matthias's space.

If one cannot defend a claim that there was something wrong in what they did, then yeah, our asking repeated questions to explain what was wrong about and being given the answer "it just is", would be going around in a circle.

Lacking an ability to explain what and why it was wrong, (did they cheat against God?) am willing concede that there is morally superiority somehow being expressed against the Apostles since am pretty certain everyone present has prayed and allowed a contingency on the matter play out.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

That was not the statement that I was making.
There are many instances of casting lots in the Bible.

In the Bible the practice was used in a variety of circumstances, including the selection of the scapegoat (Leviticus 16:8–10); the allocation of the tribal inheritance in the Promised Land (Numbers 26:55-56; Joshua 14:2; Judges 1:3; etc.); the determination of the families who had to relocate to give a proper distribution of the populace or of those warriors who had to go to war where only a percentage was required (Judges 20:9; Nehemiah 11:1); the order of the priests and their duties (1 Chronicles 24:5–19; Nehemiah 10:34); the determination of an offender (Joshua 7:14–18; cf. Proverbs 18:18).
​

The point I was making was simply that casting lots did not simply equate to a game of chance, but has an established biblical precedence for establishing the will of God in some situations.

Only by the priest in the temple. Jesus came to fulfil the physical temples requirements. We are now the temple and instead of drawing lots we have the Holy Spirit to guide us. Something you should consider taking up because it will help lead you into all truth. Which you obviously need very much.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Doubtful. The provocateurs just switch off from time to time.

I see, like that is it, human nature hey! Oh well, Jesus will be soon enough.

 

[Thursday]

In fairness to blessed Augustine, the perception of the word Catholic as he used it, may not be quite the same as your could have used it. And I think accusing people of making things up is a poor argument, by the way. Augustine was a western leaning Christian, who spent a long time in Italy, though Hippo was probably more closely connected with Alexandria, and Augustine was certainly aware of the Church in Constantinople, Jerusalem and Antioch.

Making things up is a poor argument. Pointing it out when it happens is important, especially when backed up with proof.

Albion is wrong on this point, as I have proven.

Of course Augustine was aware of all the Catholic Church locations you mentioned. That doesn't make them less Catholic. I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Stating a fact that no justification for allowing what probably everyone here today has done, prayer followed by allowing a contingency to play out, whether one assisted in toppling the first domino or not, has been made here along with no explanation how one can morally do this but the Apostles cannot has ever been made. How is it a smear to point out the people claiming the Apostles doing just that have not explained or justified how they feel morally superior to the Apostles in that regard?
Still maintain drawing of lots is a better translation and probably more accurately describes what they did, as well as something more easily done in a purely random nature by a large group of men hiding in private than would be throwing things and counting how many landed in Matthias's space.

If one cannot defend a claim that there was something wrong in what they did, then yeah, our asking repeated questions to explain what was wrong about and being given the answer "it just is", would be going around in a circle.

Lacking an ability to explain what and why it was wrong, (did they cheat against God?) am willing concede that there is morally superiority somehow being expressed against the Apostles since am pretty certain everyone present has prayed and allowed a contingency on the matter play out.

I'm sorry but I can't keep having the same conversation. You're posts are a bit 'rambly'. Perhaps make two or three short questions and we'll go from there.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It was other, more agitated, posters who fit that bill, although it was your inquiry that I was replying to.


Naa. There are some here who simply go nuts with name-calling and accusations if there is the least disagreement shown by other people towards Catholic doctrine or history. Of course, other Catholics are not like that at all (for which, much thanks). I know of no other denomination or communion that is represented here by people who are so primed to take offense.

And fanning their fire so obviously burning already, even if slightly, helps how exactly?
FWIW I do not think the coloring of the "information added" was purely incidental or innocent. The anti-Catholic fire already burning in the thread was something anyone else would be offended by if similar comments were made toward their Church. So someone following the thread and inserting themselves by adding to rather than remaining neutral on the heat is hardly an example of easily offended Catholics, especially when done by someone very knowledgeable and generally respected that most would expect is and should be better than that.

 

[Thursday]

What are you talking about? It's a well-known fact that there are other churches in addition to the Roman Catholic Church which are led by bishops in Apostolic Succession. That this fact should cause any Catholic to feel his faith threatened surprises me, frankly.

Those Churches do not include Anglicans and Lutherans, who left the Church and abandoned apostolic succession. They started appointing their own leaders.

 

[Albion]

Making things up is a poor argument. Pointing it out when it happens is important, especially when backed up with proof..

If that were ever to be included...now that would make a big difference. I think we can all agree there.