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Citizen of the Kingdom

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That is the answer of a rebellious heart which will not submit to ordained authority.

Show me in the Scriptures where Jesus or Paul said any such nonsense. I will tell you what Jesus did say about your idea of autonomy:

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

You are deceived, sir, by the one who first rebelled against authority and encourages all mankind to such rebellion.
That's funny when you consider how many various interpretations are contained in the word church. What you bring up to your church would be the opposite of what others would bring up to their church to recieve an opposite interpretation.
Rather the example Jesus left was to give unto God that which belongs to God and give to Ceasar that which belongs to Ceasar. IOW, give gvmnt to those who demanding to be governors, honor to those deserving of honor.
 
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Rick Otto

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QUOTE="Wolf_Says, post: Who are you to say that it is not for the Church?
He wasn't speaking for (especially what you define as) the Church.
You can't address his idea if you blow his assertion all out of proportion.
Take a deep breath brother, we need your informed passion applied to the right nail.


What would have happened had the apostles not pass down their authority to other men?
Calibrating authority to pedigree is OK, but not at the cost of truth. The rap sheet is centuries long and currently includes pedophilia and money laundering. Let's not go there.

Well actually it is easy to see, the Protestant Reformation.
Meaning the tide turned aginst the Inquisition's style of enhanced interrogation.

The Church was started by Jesus Christ, who positioned Peter as the head of the Apostles (Matthew 16:18-19)
A common mistake easily explained and corrected.

He then later gave power to these apostles to forgive sins (John 20:23)
And ability to bind and loose, which means to bind to heaven or remove from heaven (Matthew 18:18)
And He commanded them to go and baptize all nations (Matthew 28:19)

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth, (1 Timothy 3:15)
So how could this be an error, that they elected a new apostle?
He told you. Their instructions were to wait. Period.
The anti-catholicism in this thread is astonishing to say the least. Never ceases to amaze me.
Victimville is a fun place to commiserate, but the menu gets old pretty quick.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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That is the answer of a rebellious heart which will not submit to ordained authority.

Show me in the Scriptures where Jesus or Paul said any such nonsense. I will tell you what Jesus did say about your idea of autonomy:

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

You are deceived, sir, by the one who first rebelled against authority and encourages all mankind to such rebellion.

Good grief, now you're going to far. I'm not trying to assassinate the pope .:doh:I'm just pointing the first mistake the church made in casting a lot when they were not told to do that , or at least implied.
 
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Light of the East

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Good grief, now you're going to far. I'm not trying to assassinate the pope .:doh:I'm just pointing the first mistake the church made in casting a lot when they were not told to do that.

Okay.....but look at our conversation. It turned in the direction of defining the Church, which I responded to. And in this thread, there have been others who have stated that the authority to make such decisions, no matter what manner they are made in, has been given to the bishops of the Church by Christ Himself. That is why we are defending the Church and why I have said that you need to become Catholic (or Orthodox).
 
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chevyontheriver

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But that is universally accepted as the case, even by your own church and even though she puts a different twist on the meaning of it all.
Is it universally accepted that in Acts 1 James was the head of the Church? I'm not seeing that. I can give you that in Acts 15 one of the Jameses was the head of the Church in Jerusalem. But forcing that backwards to Acts 1 is a creative anachronism.
 
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Light of the East

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That's funny when you consider how many various interpretations are contained in the word church. What you bring up to your church would be the opposite of what others would bring up to their church to recieve an opposite interpretation.
Rather the example Jesus left was to give unto God that which belongs to God and give to Ceasar that which belongs to Ceasar. IOW, give gvmnt to those who demanding to be governors, honor to those deserving of honor.


You utterly missed my point, didn't you? When the earliest Christians used the word "church," they meant one, single organization. It had one set of leaders. It had specific places of worship with specific rubrics of worship to follow. There were not fifty dozen churches, all free-lancing and not listening to the authority of Paul or Peter or Linus. You wouldn't go to one congregation and find them using bread and wine and the next using crackers and water for communion.

There is no "interpretation" about this. God gave the Church to the world for its salvation. God gave to the Church leaders whom He promised to lead into all truth when the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost. You do not "interpret" orders - you obey them!!
 
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You utterly missed my point, didn't you? When the earliest Christians used the word "church," they meant one, single organization. It had one set of leaders. It had specific places of worship with specific rubrics of worship to follow. There were not fifty dozen churches, all free-lancing and not listening to the authority of Paul or Peter or Linus. You wouldn't go to one congregation and find them using bread and wine and the next using crackers and water for communion.

There is no "interpretation" about this. God gave the Church to the world for its salvation. God gave to the Church leaders whom He promised to lead into all truth when the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost. You do not "interpret" orders - you obey them!!
The problem is that of exclusion of way too much of what actually is the church in your limited interpretation of what you think the church is.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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First of all, let's look at more of the context of the passage in question:

And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me, for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

So, as was mentioned earlier, the charge is not to wait before doing anything, but simply to not leave Jerusalem before being baptized with the Holy Spirit. After that they would begin to spread out from the city, as Jesus mentions a few verses later:

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samar′ia and to the end of the earth.

In other words, they were not to start witnessing about Him openly until they had received the power to do so through the Holy Spirit.

Also, recall that Jesus, in Matt. 19:28, tells his disciples "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." It would have been natural to think of that as referring specifically to the apostles, yet the twelve were not the only ones who followed Jesus and who would have been there to hear this statement. Hence, Peter's insistence that the replacement for Judas - i.e., the one to fill the vacant "twelfth throne" - be "one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us...", a group Paul did not belong to. (Note that the Matt. 19 verse does not necessarily mean that the twelve will literally sit one to a throne with each judging a particular tribe of Israel - such things can be symbolic - yet even if it is symbolic, such symbols do often have a fairly concrete manifestation)

Finally, note that Paul specifically relates in Galatians 2:7-9 (regarding his meeting with the apostles in Jerusalem) that "they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles), and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised...". Paul explicitly references a distinction between him and his ministry, and the twelve and their ministry, while acknowledging the common gospel they preached (i.e., one Church). Thus, far from representing the Church "going wrong", the selection of Matthias by lot was all perfectly in line with God's plan. For with Matthias was filled the number of twelve representing Israel, and with Paul is added in the salvation (and judgement) of the Gentiles.

Yeah I'm sure Peter was thinking along similar lines as he sat there waiting and it all seems so reasonable. Why not. Lets just do that thing. No one can stop me and I have free will to do that thing. Okay so no one told me to do it but hey, can't I do something that I think is reasonable after all I'm not a bad guy and Jesus put me in charge of the rest of the 11. Yeah I'm going to do, it must be fine. I'm sure God won't mind either.

If I had a penny for every time I thought something like this I'd be pretty rich I can tell you.
 
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Thursday

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When did the church first went wrong? My answer to OP:

When so called Christians did not follow Jesus His example nor follow the bible to the letter.

The early Church didn't even have the bible.(the New Testament)

Not sure your idea holds water.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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--- Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

"Church" is used in at least three ways today. 1) the building or place and the ceremony one goes to, usually but not always, on Sunday. 2) the organisation of people with a particular set of beliefs, and often with a leadership hierarchy - e.g the Roman Catholic Church, the Presbyterian 'Church' (as an organised denomination); 3) the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, being all those who belong to the Lord Jesus Christ - He knows who they are, they may or may not go regularly to one place or building to worship, they may or may not be associated formally with a particular denominational organisation.

All who belong to the Lord Jesus Christ are subject to an on-going process of transformation, and most of us are keenly aware that this process is not smooth, nor without its setbacks. We all come into the process with out own "baggage" and are all on unique journeys. We know that things all too often "go wrong" for us as individuals, and sometimes we are part of local groups of believers where things go wrong collectively. If we use an analogy of heaven as a mansion with God in it, and we are alive on earth, Jesus is like the large glass "french doors." When we look through these glass doors to get a glimpse of God, we see (through) Jesus. When God looks 'out' at us through the same glass doors he also sees Jesus. In this sense he sees us perfect in Jesus. The Father sees his son's bride as perfect. (perhaps from this view, and in this sense the church (# 3) has never "gone wrong.") We look at ourselves and each other, and we look at Jesus our goal and our model, and we see that we fall far short of what we should or will be.

Of course God is also fully aware of all our shortcomings, and the Holy Spirit is constantly working with us and in us to take us from where we consciously are to where the Father intends us to be - fully and actually transformed to the image of his Son.

If we ask the original question about the group of original followers of Jesus, my own view is not so much that they "went wrong" as that they started "wrong." Throughout Jesus' three years of teaching, then following the resurrection, and in spite of all his attempts to get things straight in their heads, they STILL clung to their cultural baggage, believing that the Messiah would establish a kingdom of power, based in Jerusalem, re-establishing David's throne, and throwing the pagan Romans out of the promised land. They preached a gospel of POWER and vengeance. The cross was a dreadful mistake that fortunately God had corrected. Peter's message at Pentecost was very much "You killed the Messiah, God raised him from the dead, and (according to their sincere belief) He is coming back within their lifetime, so woe betide you, if you don't repent he will bring God's wrath on you." Peter exercised this raw power when he accosted Ananias and Saphira and they fell down dead. That was not the way Jesus had treated him after his denial of his Lord; instead Jesus had very gently brought him back and given him responsibility in spite of his earlier weakness. But Peter seems not to have understood this different approach. Much later Paul did when he advised mature Christians how to deal with fellow believers who had "gone wrong."

They did not understand that a new covenant was in effect; that the old one based on the temple and the curtain between ordinary people and God was torn open. They continued going to the temple, participating in temple worship. They continued to teach circumcision. They continued to live under the law, with the corrollary being that this law must be enforced (there is no forgiveness under the law, even if there may be mercy). They continued to discriminate agains non-Jews, or gentile proselytes to judaism in their support activities. And their action in choosing a successor to Judas Iscariot was entirely necessary to meet their understanding of the prophecies, with 12 being such an important number in their concepts of complete organisations. And the one Greek born believer, Stephen, who seems to have understood more than they themselves, was stoned to death. Not a single one of the apostles was there to support him in his final hours! They could not accept his understanding of the good news.

The Lord did tell the apostles to remain in Jerusalem until they were filled with the Spirit came. But then his command was clear - go out to Judah, the rest of Israel and to the utmost parts of the world. Why didn't they do that? A very plausible reason was that the headquarters was (in their mind) Jerusalem, the Messiah would come back there, and they saw it as essential that THEY be present to welcome him and form his cabinet. If they were in India or Spain or anywhere else, it would be years before they heard he had returned, and they would miss out. (Their attitude is evident in Acts 1:6.)

So they got it wrong from the beginning.

It wasn't until Paul's second missionary journey, possibly between Athens and Corinth that he had a vision that totally shook him to his roots and filled him with fear as he entered the city to preach something NEW ("you were the first to hear MY gospel" he wrote to them). This fearless man who had endured beatings, imprisonment, earthquakes while in stocks inside an unstable prison building, stonings, mobs. What could have shook up this eminent well educated Jew? Personally, I believe he was shown, and finally understood, that the cross was not an aberration that God fixed, but was the WHOLE POINT of Jesus life work! He himself described it as anathema to the Jews and foolishness to the gentiles. This was the birth of his gospel, the good news of God's LOVE, his GRACE and redemptive work of reconciliation - the very opposite of POWER. And so began a very tough campaign to convince the apostles of this gospel. Apparently, what Jesus had described to Cleopas on the road to Emmaus had never filtered through.

As long as the people of God have emphasised power, and exercised power, in whatever form, they have "gone wrong." Whenever they have emphasised love, compassion, reconciliation, grace, in humility the Spirit has been able to work. Power is not listed among the fruit of the Spirit.

Creating formal organisations automatically gives power to a few. It automatically creates the need for rules - the law - and then needs someone to enforce them. However good these rules are (and the scriptures are clear that at least in some sense "the law" is good), they ultimately remove responsibility from people, stunt their growth towards maturity, and "kill." And they directly hinder the full freedom of the Spirit to work in and through us. We forget that humans were not alone in the Fall. All of nature was, and all institutions also. Organisations and institutions by the nature of the fall, ultimately end in death, and are often the instruments of "death" where death includes all things associated with hindering our movement towards becoming all God intended us to be, individually and collectively. The church (#2) as a man-made organisation is not exempt.

That's my own personal "short answer." I'm very sure many readers will not agree with this, will challenge it. But before you do, look carefully at this narrative and consider what you know about the exercise of power in the church (or anywhere for that matter), and the association of this power with the use of fear. Remember that love does not force its will on the loved one. God has given us all free will and he respects that. From the beginning he established principles of cause and effect that apply even to interpersonal relationships. We can choose what we wish to do, but we cannot choose the consequences afterwards - they come automatically. I find the use of fear to be very inconsistent with God's love. God is love, He can do nothing except in love because it is his intrinsic nature, and we are told clearly "perfect love overthrows fear." Think of all the times God's messengers and the Lord himself said "Fear not." He does not use tools like terror to win us to him, his means are never inconsistent with his ends. (That we become afraid when we see him in his glory and we see our own shortcoming is not his doing, but ours.)

Sorry for being so long...
Monna
Just wanted to say that was a brilliant post - bit long though.
 
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LoveofTruth

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As my lunch break is about over I only have time to address one point here. The leadership in the Church does indeed have authority, as noted in Hebrews 13:17 -

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

This goes well beyond merely being "elder brothers", these are men entrusted with the souls of others who will give account to God, and whom those others are exhorted to obey and submit to. Jesus did not deny the concept of authority in the Church when He told the apostles they were not to be as Gentiles who "exercise dominion" over others; rather, He was explaining how they were to lead - as servants, exercising authority not for their own good but that of those entrusted to their care.


I strongly disagree with your understanding ( according to scripture) i will have to discuss it more fully later i am on my way out. But that verse in hebrews does not say what you think. The word "obey" there is not the same Greek word for Children "obey" your parents. It means to convince or persuade, and the word submit there is not the same word as wives submit to their husbands in greek, it means to yield as in combatants. What is actually being said in hebrews 13:7 and 17, is to listen and be convinced by the word of God that has been spoken of through oversight, yield to the word, and be convinced by the word as it is soundly taught.

Luther said a good thing when he said he didn't believe in the authority of Popes and c counsels, but rather his conscience was captive to the word of God

The scriptures and the Spirit are the authority. If any man speaks contrary to them he has no authority.

Jesus was challenged on his auhtority by the pharisees, who were in a positional authority but not spiritual or moral. jesus was asked by what authority he does these things. He was not a earthly kung or leader as they understood. All believers have similar authority in this way, when they speak and live the word of God and are led by the Spirit.

Jesus said if any man comes over others in authority they are wrong and this should not be so among the saints. The gentile authority is exactly what we see everywhere today in the church, sadly.

In Titus we read of overseers qualifications and one of them is to hold fast the faithful word ( or to have the rule in the spirit and the word) and to be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and CONVINCE the gainsayers. The authority is in the word and in the spirit not in mens persons as the Gentile authority.

Yes elders are to feed and watch over others ( not Lord over) but this is because they are skillful in the word of righteousness and have had their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Babes are unskillful in the word of righteousness. But babes can still minister as they are led in the gifts God gives in every gathering ( 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4;10,11, Colossians 3:15,16, Ephesians 4:15,16 etc etc etc etc etc )

Authority is not as the worlds authority but only in the word of Gods grace and the Spirit. We read the verse " these things speak ..with all authority". The authority is when the word is spoken.
 
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Albion

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Re-enacting the feasts is the favourite which is great but it misses the point of the feasts in the first place. There are many other things like that too but feast are there for end times instruction and most completely miss this.
Thanks. You did mention the " feasts" previously, I know; but I'm not aware of many churches that keep the OT feasts and festivals other than for the Jehovah's Witnesses and Armstrongites, neither of which is normally considered to be Protestant. And there may well be independent congregations doing so. The other churches keep all, most, or parts of the historic Christian calendar and do not observe the Jewish holidays (at least not to my knowledge). So that's what I was thinking.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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Jesus only started one Church and he told you to listen to it.

You don't.
Do you mean the pope, you, your bishop, your minister? Because yes I don't listen to them/you. I listen to the trinity and read His Word just as Jesus taught and just as you should too.
 
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Albion

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Is it universally accepted that in Acts 1 James was the head of the Church? I'm not seeing that.
And I didn't mean to say that I see it myself. This may be part of the confusion that's developed here. My point was simply that Peter isn't shown in scripture to be any kind of universal head of the church...to which end I cited the role of James. But that wasn't to say he was the "real" pope instead of Peter; it was to say that there was not understood to be any such figure as a pope, and Peter, despite his prominence or importance, clearly did not exercise such authority.
 
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It's not an "also", the "do not depart" and "wait" are in this case identical commands. The "wait" is explicitly "remain in Jerusalem", not "sit on your hands and do nothing". While Paul was "waiting" in Athens for Silas and Timothy, he did a fair bit of arguing and preaching (Acts 17).

Yes Jesus 'book ends' his instruction to express the point that they must do nothing, or at least that is what is implied.
 
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You utterly missed my point, didn't you? When the earliest Christians used the word "church," they meant one, single organization. It had one set of leaders. It had specific places of worship with specific rubrics of worship to follow. There were not fifty dozen churches, all free-lancing and not listening to the authority of Paul or Peter or Linus. You wouldn't go to one congregation and find them using bread and wine and the next using crackers and water for communion.

There is no "interpretation" about this. God gave the Church to the world for its salvation. God gave to the Church leaders whom He promised to lead into all truth when the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost. You do not "interpret" orders - you obey them!!

Yes and they failed to keep one single order to Wait.
 
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Thursday

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Do you mean the pope, you, your bishop, your minister? Because yes I don't listen to them/you. I listen to the trinity and read His Word just as Jesus taught and just as you should too.


Yes, the Church that is 2000 years old and that most Christians belong to.

Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church. He gave his Church his authority to make rules and to forgive sins. His Church then wrote down his teachings and proclaims throughout the world as it has been doing for 2000 years.

What did Jesus tell us to do when two Christians have a dispute?
 
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