Where did the Church first go wrong?

[LoveofTruth]

Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, to replace Judas with Matthias:

Acts 2:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards to be the replacement apostle:

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

I wouldn't say this was actually wrong although we do agree that God gives men gifts as he wills. But they chose a man who had seen Jesus ministry all through from John till his resurrection in order for that man, with them, to be eye witnesses of the events of Jesus ministry. Paul did not fit into that category. Although Paul was a mighty apostolic worker and one of the most wonderful ministers ever on earth, next to jesus in my opinion.

I see the error of the early church being their struggle with the law of Moses and the old Covenant, with the judaisers that came in among the saints and were often trying to bring all under the law and circucmision and even pressing this on the Gentiles. We see even in Acts 15 that the Jewish believers tried to make the Gentile converts keep the law of Moses and be circumcised to be saved. But this was not allowed but in Acts 21 we still see thousands of Jewish believers in Jesus going into the temple sacrificing animals zealous of the law and customs of the Jews. This tension I believe lingered into the disciples of some of these Jewish Apostles. We read of some of them who were disciples of Peter John etc. This law and grace seemed to extend into the early church and in time many erroneous aspects entered in.

Later in Christ history there were two major errors that affected the church (although I agree that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church). The two major errors were to start building large man made buildings unbiblically called "churches" basilicas", the house of God " etc. which replaced the church that meets in their homes for about 300 years after Christ death, and the second is the division created in the body between to so called Clergy and the so called "laity", this hierarchy was unbiblical and hindered the body ministry where Christ is the head working in every part and quenched the spirit in the body creating a dead dry religious form without the power. We see the results everywhere today.

Biblically the church is the body of Christ a spiritual house, not a man made religious building or institution. And the oversight are not to have dominion over others as Lords and controllers as masters in divinity over other, but they are to simply be mature elder brothers who watch over and care for others feeding the flock and building them up. But the entire body it to also build up one another in Christ as they are led ( 1 Cor 14;26-38, Colossians 3:15,16, Ephesians 4:11-16 , 1 Peter 4:10,11 etc etc etc etc et c etc).

There should be no one man pastor over any church. This cannot be found in the New testament. Rather we see a plurality of male elders caring for others in every church. There is no "c clergy" and "laity " in the New testament. The word Clergy comes from Kleros meaning the inheritance of God and it is used of all the body, not some high class men over others. The word Laity is not in the New testament, but Laos is meaning the people. And all believers are the people of God. So this false clergy laity division has caused a great deal of false authority over the body and placed authority in mens persona and the great ones over others are over them in authority as jesus warned for believers not to do.

To push Christ out as the head working in all the body and instead of waiting on the Lord for ministry and gifts and leading by the Spirit and replace this with ritual and form and dry dead programs as we see today has hindered the church so much that I believe we are in a laodicean church time, where Jesus is outside of many of these gatherings wanting to come into them and sup with them or to commune and participate with them, but they have their religious forms and programs and think they are rich and increased with good needing nothing.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I think we are all done here, as the OP has clearly stated here that he believes that the Bible is wrong.

You would say that your leader is the pope.

 

[Dave-W]

No, only a matter of weeks.

??????

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Well look who it is, what's up Albion! Long time no see, hope things are well?

Yes Jesus did, because as the head of the apostles, Peter carried the most amount of responsibility and therefore needed to be rebuked in kind.

Very simple.

I think we're done with you here, you have just said Peter is the head of your Church while the Bible says it's Jesus.

 

[MichaelS]

It's the Council of Jerusalem I was referring to.

Which is the Acts 15 council, so I'm definitely missing your point somewhere here.

 

[Thursday]

His entire community which was pretty much cut off from the rest of the world from the 2nd century. That was common knowledge to them.

Which community? Do you have some quotes or historical information?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Yes and no. Cornelius was a "God Fearer." That was someone who was a convert to Judaism in everything except the final step which was circumcision. Jarius and the Roman Centurion with the ill servant were also God Fearers.

Cornelius did become a Christian:
Acts10:44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tonguesb and praising God. Then Peter said, 47“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

 

[MichaelS]

No your wrong, the church was well over 3120 strong on the day of Pentecost. Paul was tackling this problem full time from that day and Steven was stoned within days if not weeks. The Believers fled Jerusalem soon after this and Paul took chase and was converted with in a matter of weeks from Pentecost.

I'd like to know where you get that idea; the most commonly accepted timeline (at least according to my research) is that Paul's conversion was about three years after Pentecost.

 

[Thursday]

I think we're done with you here, you have just said Peter is the head of your Church while the Bible says it's Jesus.

Does Jesus have the authority to appoint successors to carry on his ministry on earth?

Did he do that?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I enjoy all the post here and encourage everyone to share what the can. My goal is to tell everyone about Jesus Christ, and to work on unity in the Church, regardless of what is going on in the local church building. On this subject. I agree they did not follow what Jesus told them. I am sure God pointed this out to them, and had them repent for this. As for selecting someone today, I think the vote is the best way, and of course everyone, nedds to pray and study on the selection before speaking up

I agree with all of your nice post but it is the 'drawing of lots' I take exception to.

 

[gabbi0408]

However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards to be the replacement apostle:

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

How do you know this was not God's intention that this is how successors should be chosen? Because Jesus chose Paul the way he did, it does not follow that this is the WAY it should always and only be done..

Also, the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots was apparently fine with God and there is no indication that it was ever considered an illicit practice.

I'm not sure what you mean by "...is OT and not for the Church." Why would an OT practice automatically be disqualified for the Church?

 

[chihwahli]

When did the church first went wrong? My answer to OP:

When so called Christians did not follow Jesus His example nor follow the bible to the letter.

I frequently encounter Christians do things that are not supposed to be done at all. I am not talking about the ten commandments. For example, what discipleship is. There are so many different answers. But if you look in the bible, there is only one way to be a disciple of Christ Jesus.
The whole area of where the Holy Spirit supposed to work together with us humans, is complete neglected in many so called churches.

I am sorry, but that ain't the kind of church Jesus wanted.

Jesus Himself said, we will do even more than Him! So if you don't want to do at least the same as He, there is something really really wrong!

Reply to (around) about post #10:
The church is protected by Jesus Himself, true. But! we have a mind and heart of ourselves. So, not all knowledge or what we held dear is acceptable to our Lord Jesus. Our Lord will never force people, He will only gently warn us to stop doing things that are not His. So when for example a Christians believes something that Jesus would not want, that Christian could wander futher and further away. Even away from God's protection. Because what we believe, we will do. Once chosen for Christ does not mean we can do everything and still have salvation. It's by our actions and faith we will be announced holy and righteous when Jesus judges us. An example is at it's place: Look at all the so called churches in the world. Does every church type do what Jesus would do? No. At the fact that many churches do things that are against the bible, is a proof of that. We are not supposed to pray to people, we are not supposed to focus on love only, we are not supposed to think that God will 100% guaranteed that He will give us great fortune and a blessed life. We are not supposed to think we can plan and spread the gospel by human flesh means, without the power , wisdom, etc of the Holy Spirit. We are not supposed to think that Sabbath is THE THING in your faith in God.

Humans tend to focus a lot on many things, BUT our Lord Jesus. And how he does things. So many people end up blinded , following doctrine that is from humans and demons. And even if you show them bible passages that tell them what is right and wrong according to the bible. They will just continue and ignore bible word and continue what they are doing wrong.

If I step on people their toes and people become angry. Remember this: it's your human flesh that is angry now. Because I tell you things that are against our Lord Jesus. Because the Flesh feels condemnation. Why? Because the Flesh should have been nailed to the cross already. The flesh feels and knows this and it talks and does the opposite. Instead of accepting the bible truth and opposed and makes you angry. If you are angry, you are going further and further away from God's truth. If you continue to nourish the lies of the flesh, such person will end up far away from our Lord Jesus.

such people say frequently: you are condemning me!
I say: it's your flesh feeling the condemnation of the cross, you choose: nail the flesh and thus the evil doctrine to the cross or keep it and perhaps die and go to hell with it. Cause lies will bind you to the liar (devil). Truth will set you free together with our Lord Jesus. You cannot choose ....... 2 masters.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Hello, Aelialicinia, and welcome to CF.

That point isn't going over well in this thread. Sadly, after being moved to GT, this thread has served to do nothing that I can see except excite strife among the brethren. The voices of reason that pop up are being ignored or argued against.

I have to shake my head. If the Church "went off the rails" even before Scripture was written, much less canonized, it seems people coming along 2000 years later would hardly know enough to properly criticize it, wouldn't you think? But it's a popular notion in some circles, and necessary to justify their break with the denomination that broke from the denomination that broke from the denomination of ... and so on. Forgive me, I'm sure this sounds to some like editorializing, or triumphalism, or some equally negative sentiment, depending on their point of view. But I really do find it sad that Christianity is so very shattered, fragmented, and those bits are at war with one another. Divide and conquer? Sounds like the strategy of an enemy.

Anyway, again, welcome to CF! I hope you are blessed by being here. If this sort of thread suits you, then more reasonable voices are always needed. And if it does not, then please know we have many areas of CF, each with a different focus. Let us know if we can help you find your way around. I'm only here myself because this thread was originally in Traditional Theology, where I spend part of my time. I'd like to welcome you to The Ancient Way (TAW) as well, which is the EO forum - please stop in and say hello. As Lent is approaching we may be a bit bumpy in there as well at times. By the grace of God, may we love one another.

God be with you!

Ahhr, I see so perhaps we should all just follow what you say and ignore what the Bible says about learning:

Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

And:

Isaiah 28:13
So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that; a little here, a little there-- so that as they go they will fall backward; they will be injured and snared and captured.

I take exception to singling me out as some tool of the Devil when all i am doing is rebuking the body as instructed in the Bible to do so, or may be you think that's just a waste of time and we should all just .. .Ahhrr whatever...

 

[chevyontheriver]

God nor Jesus told Peter or anyone to select a replacement. Jesus already had that in hand when he selected Paul. Peter Err'ed.

That would be your opinion, and you have not really substantiated it. To hold it you have to have a suspicion of Luke as a fair reporter in Acts, that he covered up the whole thing, which according to you was a very serious infidelity. So Luke would have had to whitewash it. But Luke didn't whitewash much else, showing warts and all for Peter vs Paul. Color me totally unconvinced that Peter erred in Acts 1.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Then I guess the question should be "what practices?"

Re-enacting the feasts is the favourite which is great but it misses the point of the feasts in the first place. There are many other things like that too but feast are there for end times instruction and most completely miss this.

 

[MichaelS]

And the oversight are not to have dominion over others as Lords and controllers as masters in divinity over other, but they are to simply be mature elder brothers who watch over and care for others feeding the flock and building them up. But the entire body it to also build up one another in Christ as they are led ( 1 Cor 14;26-38, Colossians 3:15,16, Ephesians 4:11-16 , 1 Peter 4:10,11 etc etc etc etc et c etc).

There should be no one man pastor over any church. This cannot be found in the New testament. Rather we see a plurality of male elders caring for others in every church. There is no "c clergy" and "laity " in the New testament. The word Clergy comes from Kleros meaning the inheritance of God and it is used of all the body, not some high class men over others. The word Laity is not in the New testament, but Laos is meaning the people. And all believers are the people of God. So this false clergy laity division has caused a great deal of false authority over the body and placed authority in mens persona and the great ones over others are over them in authority as jesus warned for believers not to do.

As my lunch break is about over I only have time to address one point here. The leadership in the Church does indeed have authority, as noted in Hebrews 13:17 -

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

This goes well beyond merely being "elder brothers", these are men entrusted with the souls of others who will give account to God, and whom those others are exhorted to obey and submit to. Jesus did not deny the concept of authority in the Church when He told the apostles they were not to be as Gentiles who "exercise dominion" over others; rather, He was explaining how they were to lead - as servants, exercising authority not for their own good but that of those entrusted to their care.

 

[Light of the East]

Because I am doing what each of us are instructed by God to do but most fail in this because they do not even know what that instruction is. Instead they get together and start telling each other what to do and like sheep they follow whoever sounds like they know best, rather than listening to the Holy Spirit Who resides within them, who given a chance, would lead them into all truth as long as they are patient and read their Bibles daily. Then they would begin to learn what it is that the Holy Spirit wants them to do and to ultimately fulfil there personal destiny in Christ in order to obtain an incorruptible Crown. .

That is the answer of a rebellious heart which will not submit to ordained authority.

Show me in the Scriptures where Jesus or Paul said any such nonsense. I will tell you what Jesus did say about your idea of autonomy:

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

You are deceived, sir, by the one who first rebelled against authority and encourages all mankind to such rebellion.

 

[Light of the East]

When so called Christians did not follow Jesus His example nor follow the bible to the letter.

You do realize that there was not even a Bible for the first four centuries of the Church, right? Or are you one of those guys who I saw on the Internet who swears that the KJV is the Bible Jesus preached from?

Without a codified Bible, how did the first Christians even know what to believe?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

So seriously ... if the Apostles had such poor leadership skills, and poor performance ... before a word of the New Testament was ever written, or a single Church established ... how do you come by the knowledge of Christianity, and of what they SHOULD have done?

How is it that your vision 2000 years later is clearer than that of men who personally walked with Christ in the flesh for several years of His earthly ministry?

Well as I have said on here, hind-sight is a great thing, so to be fair to them it was understandable to a degree I suppose and to be clear the point I'm making is they should not have selected a replacement to the man who Jesus had selected Himself and for that matter He had selected each of them. It was not this job to do his job. They were just supposed to wait as Jesus said.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

That would be your opinion, and you have not really substantiated it. To hold it you have to have a suspicion of Luke as a fair reporter in Acts, that he covered up the whole thing, which according to you was a very serious infidelity. So Luke would have had to whitewash it. But Luke didn't whitewash much else, showing warts and all for Peter vs Paul. Color me totally unconvinced that Peter erred in Acts 1.

No, no. Luke didn't have a clue that the lot casting was an issue, he was as clueless about it as the rest of them. That is why most people who read it think the same about it.