Where did the Church first go wrong?

~Anastasia~ · Feb 8, 2017

Just a reminder - everyone who participates in Traditional Theology needs to read the Statement of Purpose.

This is a topic-driven forum. I am not sure of the purpose of this thread - I would prefer the OP evaluate that for himself. But if the purpose is to argue against Tradition, the proper forum would be General Theology.

Please feel free to ask if you have any questions.

LovebirdsFlying · Feb 8, 2017

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Only a slight adjustment. This thread is being moved to General Theology, where staff has determined it to be a better fit.

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John Hyperspace · Feb 8, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, Mattias to replace Judas. This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards.

I don't think voting is the same as casting the lot. According to the OT lot was cast to determine the will of God in many cases, notably the Yom Kippur sacrifice, and even played the center of Purim. Proverbs 16:33 seems to indicate the the Lord controls the outcome of the casting of lots. It is shown to effectively expose Jonah 1:7. There were 12 apostles to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles; I'm not sure a legitimate case can be made against the apostles here.

As for where did the church first go wrong, I would say when it accepted the doctrine of Judaizers to become circumcised and keep the law in the flesh, which caused Christ to become of no effect. Doesn't get much more wrong than that. Galatians 5:3-4

rockytopva · Feb 8, 2017

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

In which... The Apostle Paul was the Apostle to the second age, the Smyrnaen. Even in Paul's day the church was a handful...

Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. - 2 Corinthians 11:28

“Love will not be constrain'd by mastery.
When mast'ry comes, the god of love anon
Beateth his wings, and, farewell! He is gone.
Love is a thing as any spirit free.” - Chaucer

Whenever someone thought they came upon the mastery of the Christian faith it seemed that the Spirit of love would depart and trouble would set in.

The Persecuted church - The Second Church - The Apostle Paul

Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
Time Persecutor Description
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD

In studying this I found that in-between persecutions the church would often go wrong. on Petilian’s discussions with St. Augustine they seem to look back upon the martyrs in remembrance of a much purer faith...

"Therefore I say, He ordained that we should undergo death for the faith, which each man should do for the communion of the Church. For Christianity makes progress by the deaths of its followers. For if death were feared by the faithful, no man would be found to live with perfect faith. For the Lord Christ says, 'Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.'" (John 12:24) –Petilian’s discussions with St. Augustine. Note: “even in the days of wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr” refers to the previous church age. As the Bishop Pelitian and Augustine were hashing away at what direction the church should go, Pelitian made the comment that we should not fear dying as Christians, knowing that the state of the seed is better in the afterlife than in the former. A star in Pergamos was the good old St. Nicholas, who would ride into town with a switch and presents for the children, depending on how good they were.

rockytopva · Feb 8, 2017

rockytopva said:
I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

In which... The Apostle Paul was the Apostle to the second age, the Smyrnaen. Even in Paul's day the church was a handful...

Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. - 2 Corinthians 11:28

“Love will not be constrain'd by mastery.
When mast'ry comes, the god of love anon
Beateth his wings, and, farewell! He is gone.
Love is a thing as any spirit free.” - Chaucer

Whenever someone thought they came upon the mastery of the Christian faith it seemed that the Spirit of love would depart and trouble would set in.

The Persecuted church - The Second Church - The Apostle Paul

Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
Time Persecutor Description
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD

In studying this I found that in-between persecutions the church would often go wrong. on Petilian’s discussions with St. Augustine they seem to look back upon the martyrs in remembrance of a much purer faith...

"Therefore I say, He ordained that we should undergo death for the faith, which each man should do for the communion of the Church. For Christianity makes progress by the deaths of its followers. For if death were feared by the faithful, no man would be found to live with perfect faith. For the Lord Christ says, 'Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.'" (John 12:24) –Petilian’s discussions with St. Augustine. Note: “even in the days of wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr” refers to the previous church age. As the Bishop Pelitian and Augustine were hashing away at what direction the church should go, Pelitian made the comment that we should not fear dying as Christians, knowing that the state of the seed is better in the afterlife than in the former. A star in Pergamos was the good old St. Nicholas, who would ride into town with a switch and presents for the children, depending on how good they were.

And.... If I read into these prophecies correctly... Materialism is where the church goes wrong in our day and time. I saw both my grandmother and mother through the valley of the shadow of death these last 15 years and the hospital's religious channel of choice was David Cerrello's INSP network. It seemed that every message given was one on, "Your period of increase." Here I am dealing with sickness and death and that is all the ministers had to talk about was my time of increase! I do not blame the Catholics for pushing EWTN!

Deadworm · Feb 8, 2017

Where did the church first go wrong?

(1) The church disobeyed the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20), until the persecution that included Stephen's stoning forced the Greek-speaking Jewish Christians to flee for their lives (Acts 8:1). This scattering, at last prompted them to begin to fulfill the Great Commission.

(2) Next the early church's confidence that Jesus would return "soon" robbed them of the vision of a long church age and thus prevented the eyewitnesses from writing and mass producing Gospels for posterity (Luke 1:1-4). As a result, the earliest Gospels were lost. The many Gospels that were written prior to our 4 are late enough so that their eyewitness authorship is widely disputed.

(3) Then the church abandoned its initial stress on the reception pf the Holy Spirit as an experience of divine power and replaced it with the doctrine that, upon profession of faith, one automatically received this Spirit with no corroborating experience being necessary. This eliminated the widespread demonstration of the Spirit and power that was so enticing to non-Christians.

(4) As decades passed, the church got careless about the need for a vetting system to assure that Scriptural writings were actually written by apostles and eyewitnesses of Jesus. As a result, several pseudonymous Christian writings were widely circulated and deceived many as to their authenticity.

Quid est Veritas? · Feb 8, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
I do not think that was a big issue.

IN 135 ad Jerusalem revolted against Roman occupation (similar to 70 ad) and lost. It changed history forever. The majority of the Jews were forcibly removed from Judea and Galilee and scattered across the empire. A disparate bunch of Arabs from many tribes were brought in to replace them and Rome renamed Judea to Palestina and called the people Palestinians. (after Israel's ancient enemy the Philistines)

To avoid the persecution that Rome imposed on Jews across the empire, the church decided to distance themselves from Judaism. They changed EVERYTHING that could be construed to be Jewish. Without that anchor, many of the biblical texts had no context to interpret them from so they made up their own and kept getting farther and farther off.

Bar Kohba's revolt was precipitated by Hadrian's attempts to rebuild Jerusalem into a Roman Municipium so that he could try and acculture and integrate the Jews. The Jews had done a series of pro-Parthian revolts during Trajan's campaigns in the diaspora, so this was part of Hadrian's progression through the Empire to secure borders and such.

It is a commonly held myth that the Jews were expelled from Palestine after the revolt. They were only expelled from Jerusalem and its immediate environs, which became the Roman city of Aelia Capitolana.
The Romans did rename the province Palestine after the Philistines though.

The diaspora was well in place by this time. Jewish populations were scattered accross Babylonia and the Empire thanks to trade and emigration and a few cases of forced migration like residual Babylonian exiles, but Judaea remained mostly Jewish. It was still so in 500s AD during the wars with the Sassanians and we see Tiberias becoming a major Jewish centre to replace Jerusalem.
It was later attempts to forcibly convert them and the Samaritans under the Byzantines and Arabs that finally forced either their conversion or to the Jews mostly leaving.

I agree that the increasing Roman opprobrium levelled at the rebellious Jews led to Christianity distancing itself and thus losing much of its Jewish context. I don't know if this is really where it 'went wrong' though.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Feb 8, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, Mattias to replace Judas. This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards.

not sure how the pope is a byproduct of a choice in acts though......and not sure why this is a big deal or why this is even a major component to why the church is in the state it's in today.

Quid est Veritas? · Feb 8, 2017

The Church went wrong when it became worldly. When it started amassing estates and power.
When exactly this date is is an open question, for power plays were obviously already present even before Constantine allowed freedom of religion in the Empire.

Luckily there have been reform movements throughout history to get it at least to see the right path, be they internal like the Benedictines, Clunaic or Franciscan reforms or schismatic like the Protestant Reformation.
God will call his own home and is obviously looking after his Church, even if sinful human nature tends to try and corrupt it continuously.

Daniel9v9 · Feb 9, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, Mattias to replace Judas. This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards.

What @DaveW-Ohev said regarding "binding and loosing" is true. Matthew 18:18

Furthermore, according to the Law, it's not necessarily a sin for priests cast lot. Sometimes it's encouraged. You can find examples of the practice here:
Luke 1:8 Leviticus 16:8 Proverbs 16:33 1 Samuel 10:17-27 Joshua 14:2

Put simply, casting lots can mean trusting in God with the decision, though it may also be used for evil as seen in Matthew 27:35. However, in the case of appointing an apostle, it's not for evil, for we know from context that (A) it's about furthering God's kingdom and (B) a symbolic completion and perfection in the number 12.

fhansen · Feb 9, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, Mattias to replace Judas. This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards.

And so how were the rest of the future disciples to be chosen? And couldn't God continue to choose people anyway in a manner similar to Paul's election? Or, alternatively, why couldn't God simply work through men to do the choosing, whether by drawing lots or simply by their using prayer and reason? And what about the men who later assembled the canon of Scripture that you read to find out about the early church? Were they not chosen in some manner by God? Are we to determine how God should act?

PanDeVida · Feb 9, 2017

Guide To The Bible said:
Not many consider where it first began to go wrong for the church:

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus gave the Apostle this one command just before His Ascension but in that 10 days the apostles chose by votes and lot, and also apart from Gods’ instructions, Mattias to replace Judas. This seemly innocuous act carried over and into the Christian faith the Jewish priesthood practice of drawing lots and started an unofficial man made tradition of voting and drawing lots to replace the disciples after they had died, including Peter and which has continued until this day with each new selection of Pope. However, this was never God’s intention as it is God alone who selects His chosen people as proven by the fact that Jesus chose Paul shortly afterwards.

Guidetothebible, "However this was never God's intention". Really??? How wrong you are.

Should we now believe Guidetothebible, over The Apostles in choosing Mathias to replace Judas.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in [the] book of Psalms, Let his homestead become desolate, and let there be no dweller in it; and, Let another take his overseership.

The Eleven Apostles prayed to God and it was by the guidance of the Holy Spirit that guided the Apostles to chose Mathias to replace Judas. And for you to say that doing so is "seemly innocuous act...", you find yourself fighting against the Holy Spirit will, to choose Matthias over Judas.

Guidetothebible, Jesus Christ left His Church in the care of men aka Apostles and unto their Successors. Without Succession the Church dies and the Apostles knew this to be a fact.

Though Paul was chosen by Jesus, Paul an Apostle as well as Barnabas etc..are not part of the twelve. There are only 12 Original Apostles who will judge the 12 tribes of Juda and Mathias was chosen by the Holy Spirit.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Feb 9, 2017

many have considered where it first went wrong with the church it's just that all do not agree.For instance you're talking of matthias being voted into the 12 apostles as something that should not have been done but the bible show us that Jesus gave the apostles much authority.Besides this voting matthias in among the 12apostles was prophecy being fulfilled for basically the scriptures tell us that one close to Jesus would betray him and not only will this traitor die but his position among the 12 apostles would be given to another so i don't believe that voting matthias among the 12 was where the church first went wrong

Guide To The Bible · Feb 9, 2017

LovebirdsFlying said:
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Only a slight adjustment. This thread is being moved to General Theology, where staff has determined it to be a better fit.

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Thank you

Guide To The Bible · Feb 9, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
I don't think voting is the same as casting the lot. According to the OT lot was cast to determine the will of God in many cases, notably the Yom Kippur sacrifice, and even played the center of Purim. Proverbs 16:33 seems to indicate the the Lord controls the outcome of the casting of lots. It is shown to effectively expose Jonah 1:7. There were 12 apostles to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles; I'm not sure a legitimate case can be made against the apostles here.

As for where did the church first go wrong, I would say when it accepted the doctrine of Judaizers to become circumcised and keep the law in the flesh, which caused Christ to become of no effect. Doesn't get much more wrong than that. Galatians 5:3-4

They did cast lots though:

Acts 2:26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

I will add it to the OP.

Yeah that whole Judaizers thing was a right mess

Guide To The Bible · Feb 9, 2017

Deadworm said:
Where did the church first go wrong?

(1) The church disobeyed the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20)

I don't think Jesus meant for them to rush off that minute and anyway they did do this eventually:

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

(1a) until the persecution that included Stephen's stoning forced the Greek-speaking Jewish Christians to flee for their lives (Acts 8:1). This scattering, at last prompted them to begin to fulfill the Great Commission.

Yes, they could have got going sooner and saved themselves a lot of bother, isn't hind-sight is a great thing

(2) Next the early church's confidence that Jesus would return "soon" robbed them of the vision of a long church age and thus prevented the eyewitnesses from writing and mass producing Gospels for posterity (Luke 1:1-4). As a result, the earliest Gospels were lost. The many Gospels that were written prior to our 4 are late enough so that their eyewitness authorship is widely disputed.

We learn from our mistakes

(3) Then the church abandoned its initial stress on the reception pf the Holy Spirit as an experience of divine power and replaced it with the doctrine that, upon profession of faith, one automatically received this Spirit with no corroborating experience being necessary. This eliminated the widespread demonstration of the Spirit and power that was so enticing to non-Christians.

Yes that was a mistake indeed.

(4) As decades passed, the church got careless about the need for a vetting system to assure that Scriptural writings were actually written by apostles and eyewitnesses of Jesus. As a result, several pseudonymous Christian writings were widely circulated and deceived many as to their authenticity.

Yes

Guide To The Bible · Feb 9, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
not sure how the pope is a byproduct of a choice in acts though......and not sure why this is a big deal or why this is even a major component to why the church is in the state it's in today.

As I say the current Catholic church started with this:

Acts 2:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

If that hadn't of happen and instead they waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

Guide To The Bible · Feb 9, 2017

Quid est Veritas? said:
The Church went wrong when it became worldly. When it started amassing estates and power.
When exactly this date is is an open question, for power plays were obviously already present even before Constantine allowed freedom of religion in the Empire.

Luckily there have been reform movements throughout history to get it at least to see the right path, be they internal like the Benedictines, Clunaic or Franciscan reforms or schismatic like the Protestant Reformation.
God will call his own home and is obviously looking after his Church, even if sinful human nature tends to try and corrupt it continuously.

Yeah that was another fine mess but it originated in the formation of said Catholic church in the beginning:

Acts 2:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

If that hadn't of happen and instead they waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

Guide To The Bible · Feb 9, 2017

Daniel9v9 said:
What @DaveW-Ohev said regarding "binding and loosing" is true. Matthew 18:18

Furthermore, according to the Law, it's not necessarily a sin for priests cast lot. Sometimes it's encouraged. You can find examples of the practice here:
Luke 1:8 Leviticus 16:8 Proverbs 16:33 1 Samuel 10:17-27 Joshua 14:2

Put simply, casting lots can mean trusting in God with the decision, though it may also be used for evil as seen in Matthew 27:35. However, in the case of appointing an apostle, it's not for evil, for we know from context that (A) it's about furthering God's kingdom and (B) a symbolic completion and perfection in the number 12.

The bind and losing is true but has nothing to do with where the church first went wrong. The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

Guide To The Bible · Feb 9, 2017

fhansen said:
And so how were the rest of the future disciples to be chosen?

The 12 apostles were chosen by Christ. Disciples are anyone else who follows Jesus.

And couldn't God continue to choose people anyway in a manner similar to Paul's election?

Yes if that is what God wants.

Or, alternatively, why couldn't God simply work through men to do the choosing, whether by drawing lots or simply by their using prayer and reason?

The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

And what about the men who later assembled the canon of Scripture that you read to find out about the early church? Were they not chosen in some manner by God?

Who know's (apart from God of course), do you have a specific example?

Are we to determine how God should act?

No, we must wait on God to act.

Where did the Church first go wrong?

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