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Where Did Humans Come From?

FaithT

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Well, welcome back. I hope it works out well for you.
Considering I was raised Catholic, left at 24, returned almost about 17 years ago, left again about 5 years ago for the LCMS, I’m not very optimistic but we’ll see. I went to a different ND church that’s near here this past weekend. I’ve been there before, but this time I didn’t care for it. Too hip of a crowd, too many people packed in like sardines, too loud, too long a service etc.
I really like the LCMS near here but like I said, I disagree with them on some points that I can’t continue to overlook.
 
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JAL

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I'm not following this. We move our bodies by free will. Therefore if consciousness were terminated, it is unlikely that the body would do much of anything that seemed volitional, it would simply seem to appear dead which it is, at that point, since the soul's awareness has been terminated.
 
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eleos1954

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2 Peter 1
English Standard Version


Greeting
1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Peter considered himself of equal standing with those who have obtained faith.
 
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The Barbarian

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Peter considered himself of equal standing with those who have obtained faith.

Well, let's take a look...

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

He thinks their faith is of equal standing. But that doesn't at all refute what Jesus told him. Sorry.
 
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The Barbarian

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I'm not following this. We move our bodies by free will.

If this man no longer existed as sentient being and his nervous system continued to act as though he was still there, how would you tell the difference? Suppose we could make a robot that would act in every way as a human being, would it then have free will?

Therefore if consciousness were terminated, it is unlikely that the body would do much of anything that seemed volitional, it would simply seem to appear dead which it is, at that point, since the soul's awareness has been terminated.

Does a dog have free will? An octopus? How about a bee? How about an amoeba? How do you distinguish which ones, of not all of them?
 
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JAL

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Machines do not have free will. (Unless of course we want to take seriously a negligible amount).

Does a dog have free will? An octopus? How about a bee? How about an amoeba? How do you distinguish which ones, of not all of them?
Animals seem to have free will, but probably slightly less than humans. Their systems seem to apply stronger pressures, thus making their behavior more predictable and thereby reducing their free will.
 
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The Barbarian

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Machines do not have free will. (Unless of course we want to take seriously a negligible amount).

So how do we tell the difference? What if a machine can pass the most difficult Turing test? Many of them can already do this for most people.
 
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JAL

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So how do we tell the difference? What if a machine can pass the most difficult Turing test? Many of them can already do this for most people.
None of us are infallible. As a fallible person:
...I can't even insist that Christianity is true.
...I can't even prove that you exist.
...I can't (apodictically) insist that my computer is a mere machine. Maybe it's a person.

I happen to agree with those who believe that today's machines are just machines. I can't give you an absolute proof of it.

Scripture SEEMS to distinguish between dead bodies (machines) and living souls. Things that seem to show signs of pain, or an instinct for survival, or self-animation by free will, are probably alive (i.e. have a soul). I said we move our bodies by free will. Notice how a bug self-propels away from me if it senses me advancing upon it to kill it. This suggests free will and an instinct for survival.

It's not a perfect science. But I suspect biologists have done a pretty good job of distinguishing the living from the dead.
 
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The Barbarian

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It's not a perfect science. But I suspect biologists have done a pretty good job of distinguishing the living from the dead.

We can't even get agreement on whether viruses are alive or not. So it's harder than you suspect.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Scriptures teach us that God created all things, including human beings.

The observations of the natural world point to populations of organisms adapting to their environment over time, and this includes human beings and their biological relatives.

These are not mutually exclusive statements.

If human beings evolved from earlier hominids, we are still God's creatures (because He made everything). If we evolved from earlier hominids, we are still suffering under the tyranny of sin and death and in need of salvation; and all creation remains still groaning in the pain and agony of child birth because of sin and death. As far as what God's commandments are, and the reality of our condemnation under the Law, what changes? Nothing. As far as God's promises of healing, salvation, and reconciliation of us and all creation, what changes? Nothing. God's word abides.

Do we need to get every single possible i dotted and t crossed? Of course we don't. What we need to do is trust what God has told us, we are to abide in and trust the word of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BobRyan

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I don't know if apes are persons or even if they have immortal souls....
Technically, we are apes. What makes you think God didn't do it for some other group of apes as well?

says it all my friends.

This is another reason why a lot of us don't go down that road.

More to the point, God hasn't told us one way or the other.

Maybe we're the only apes with immortal souls. Maybe not.

Too late for that speculation - God already told us what we are in Gen 2:7 and it did not including finding an ape and turning it into a human.

Gen 2:7 7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living soul.

And in Gen 1 we find that this takes place on the 6th day of the week of Creation -

And of course in Ex 20:11 we find this same 7 day week in legal code - for Gen 2.
 
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BobRyan

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Interesting.
 
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BobRyan

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Words have power and the word incest will immediately make 99% of people have a negative reaction, it means something disgusting. .

But the reason is that God condemns it and that it results in harm to the gene pool, harm to children.

God didn’t condemn it until Leviticus which was roughly 2500 years after creation. The scriptures also say that the entire world was populated by Noah’s 3 sons.

And before that - by the children of Adam and Eve. Two parents.

So no doubt brothers and sisters married each other for the first 1800 years of human history.

But the genetic defects were rapidly introduced after the flood and that sort of thing could not continue without doing damage to the lineage of downstream generations. So God puts a stop to it.
 
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BobRyan

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Amen to that!
 
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BobRyan

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Thank you for posting that. Very informative
 
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The Barbarian

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says it all my friends.

This is another reason why a lot of us don't go down that road.

The sin of pride. People often don't want to admit that we are animals, born like other animals and subject to the same kinds of needs for our bodies.

Too late for that speculation - God already told us what we are in Gen 2:7 and it did not including finding an ape and turning it into a human.

Nor did He say that we aren't apes, only given living souls directly by Him. You just took the lack of detail as an opportunity to insert your own wishes into scripture.

And in Gen 1 we find that this takes place on the 6th day of the week of Creation

As you know, the text itself says that it's not a literal history. It would be absurd to have literal mornings and evenings before the sun existed.

And nowhere in scripture does it say repeating a figurative verse will convert it to a literal one.
 
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FaithT

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Where does the text say it’s not a literal history?
 
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The Barbarian

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Where does the text say it’s not a literal history?

It speaks of mornings and evenings before there was a sun. Since that's absurd by definition, we know it's not literal days.
 
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FaithT

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It speaks of mornings and evenings before there was a sun. Since that's absurd by definition, we know it's not literal days.
Well, the more and more I read the more I’m considering returning to the RCC. There is a ND church I like but they don’t have Jesus in the Eucharist and it’s farther than I want to drive anyway.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That would suggest that God was being reactive instead of proactive. What genetic defects are you referring to after the flood?
 
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