Where are the miracles today? Where is 'the supernatural'?

essentialsaltes said:

Well, then as I asked before... where are the miracles?

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Miracles require a kind of faith ("according to your faith be it done to you") which I think is often in short supply here in the West. If you're looking for them I suggest you seek out churches who have a here-and-now supernatural outlook, such as Charismatic churches.

essentialsaltes said:

The god of the Old Testament performed many obvious miracles, on a literal reading:
The Flood of Noah
Destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah
Lot's Wife turning to salt
Plagues of Egypt, including three days of darkness & the death of the firstborn sons.

And individuals perform 'supernatural' deeds, like pharaoh's men turning their rods into serpents.

In the New Testament, the miracles of Jesus are manifold. And his followers displayed certain spiritual gifts:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

I understand there is some controversy about whether these gifts have continued to the present day. Be that as it may, the Bible still seems to be quite clear that believers obtain certain powers or benefits:

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Now perhaps Jesus was exaggerating when he said that faith could move mountains. But faith does not appear to allow even molehills to be moved by command. Or even a mustard seed.

The self-professed miracle workers of today are not very impressive: they babble nonsense, and claims of healings and exorcisms are not very credible.

And if the miracles of the faithful have waned in impressiveness, divine miracles appear to be completely absent today. Although the bible promises signs and wonders, and stars falling from the sky, the best that can be said is that it hasn't happened yet. Compared to the active days of the Old Testament, there seems to be no sign at all of god interfering with the natural order of things.

Why are there no miracles or supernatural events 'today'? Let's keep the focus of the discussion on the past 100 years. Who has moved a mountain?

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The modern notion of "miracle" has some problems. To address them here would be to go too far afield from the OP. But I just wanted to say that before getting to the point at hand...

Miracles have a few specific purposes in Scripture. One of the most important purposes is to attest to new revelation and to demonstrate the authority of the prophet. The sign always accompanies the word. One thing you'll notice if you read the Bible is that miracles did not occur with the same frequency at every moment in Biblical history. Miracles happened at the same time that new revelation was being given - new words from God. And the miracles were usually attached to a special person who conveyed this new revelation to God's people - a prophet.

So we see a great amount of miracles with Moses and also with Jesus. But there are many times in Israel's history where miracles are indeed very rare (the era of the kings, for example).

Jesus and the apostles are said to have performed mighty works. This is because they also carried new revelation and needed to be established as God-ordained authorities. But according to church history, the signs and wonders abruptly ceased in the second century. Probably because the apostolic era was over - the new revelation was successfully conveyed and miracles were no longer needed.

However Jesus does say that one miracle will abide until the end of the age - the existence of the church. According to Jesus, the quality of relationships within the church community is the major "sign" or "miracle" that functions to attest to the truth of the gospel and the authority of Jesus.

John 13:35 - "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
John 17:21 - Jesus prays "that they may all be one...so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

Miracles are and always have been rare events and should never be the reason we believe.

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/1-22.htm
"22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,"

http://biblehub.com/john/2-3.htm
"3When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine." 4And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.""

Yet because of lack of faith he performed those miracles - so that those seeing would believe.

"11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him."

http://biblehub.com/exodus/14-31.htm
"31When Israel saw the great power which the LORD had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in His servant Moses."

But something greater was given to us - faith without miracles. We should not need signs or wonders to believe. Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecy - the last of the great signs to be given. Now we walk by faith and not by sight.

http://biblehub.com/romans/8-24.htm
"24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it."

http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/4-18.htm
"17For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Hope through faith is a greater gift than any miracle you could ever ask to witness. Because even though those miracles were displayed as they trekked through the wilderness - they still lost their hope - precisely because they could see. They once again fell to worshiping what they could see and touch and lost the hope they had.

Miracles may be worked in an individuals life, but expect to see none in the world at large. For the next great working of miracles to the world will be by one who comes to deceive the whole world - simply by giving them what they ask for - signs and wonders, and they will fall down before the feet of the wicked one and be lost forever - deceived by those very miracles they need to believe.

http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/2-9.htm
"8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.…"

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Our brains output is a result of E/c2
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)
---c2 - Kind a like red, blue, green, and yellow, only in spiritual terms.

Find the force of the Spiritual E/c2 and it will work for your favor and do great things and even the miraculous for you.

Faith... The man who talked to trees...

Which mountain was "this mountain?" I think that is a fair question.

I observed the OP suggesting that miracles within the last 100 years may satisfy him...

There is a booklet written by Willie Burton who was a missionary to the Congo called "Signs Following". I have seen it available in PDF format on the web somewhere, here http://www.dealpentecostal.co.uk/Signs Following WFPBurton.pdf

My dad knew Willie personally and it is likely that I saw him in my early childhood but don't remember him. With such connections I feel I can recommend such a read.

If I can get my thoughts and sources together I will give you more on the mountain later.

Justatruthseeker said:

Miracles are and always have been rare events and should never be the reason we believe.

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Then what should be the reason to believe?

essentialsaltes said:

Why are there no miracles or supernatural events 'today'? Let's keep the focus of the discussion on the past 100 years. Who has moved a mountain?

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You can't go through the billions of humans on this earth to confirm this, can you?

That said. In OT miracles are for God to prove His existence to a small bunch (or the whole Israel sometimes) of direct witnesses, and for His deeds to be recorded down by those chosen witnesses in the book we today call the Bible. When the crafting of the Bible is done, it's no longer necessary for His deeds to be made obvious to humans. It's up to humans to put faith in what is said in the completed Bible or not.

It by no means says that He no long performs miracles. It only means that it is not needed for His miraculous deeds to be formally recorded down.

I don't understand all this fuss about God not needing miracles for today... God has never needed miracles, what do they do for him?

I also think that it is foolish to say that God isn't doing miracles today when there are obviously many testimonies around the globe of miraculous events just because the particular miracle doesn't strike you as that important or because of lack of documentation. There is the recorded account of the man who died in a car accident, and was pronounced dead by his doctor and his body prepared for burial. His wife took him to a crusade Reinhardt was conducting where he was raised from the dead, not by the well known evangelist, but by co-workers beneath the stadium in the name of Jesus. What of that lady named Jean who was wheelchair bound in Britain who left her wheelchair and walked? She gave up her disability pension for goodness sake, yet still many don't believe. These accounts are on video for all to watch if you care to look for them and they are only decades old at the most. Perhaps Christ for all Nations has them available on their website.

Then I recall the Ethiopian evangelist who happened on a hut of mourners crying over a dead woman. He went in and raised her from the dead in the name of Jesus. This was reported on secular news for goodness sake. I was watching the news, not some religious program trying to prove a point.

I, myself was healed as an infant when my parents laid their hands on me and prayed in the name of Jesus. At the age of 17 I was healed of a nervous disorder and associated headaches when God personally challenged my faith in him. In 2003 I left the unit where I lived on the corner of Montague and Moffat Streets in Zimbabwe. I saw tropical storms on both sides of me and had a 20 minute brisk walk to church. I spoke to the storms on either side and told them in the name of Jesus to remain where they were. People who were dropped of in cars were drenched by the storm that hit shortly after I entered the building just from the mad dash across the curb and I was completely dry. That was in 1983. God answers prayer.

I just laugh when people tell me miracles are not for today, what they have missed out on!

Okay, so I can't convince someone who is determined not to believe but that's actually his problem and not mine. The record of history shows many miracles done in the name of Jesus and by faith. All you have to do is look.

Idris Davis carried his doctor issued death certificate around for many years proving God had raised him from the dead. What did the so called experts say? We don't know the doctor so we can't prove its not a forgery.

Bah! That man was a family friend. Christians weren't born in a test tube so I see no reason they have to live there.

essentialsaltes said:

Why are there no miracles or supernatural events 'today'? Let's keep the focus of the discussion on the past 100 years. Who has moved a mountain?

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So have you checked in every corner of the world and under every tree to determine that there are 'no miracles or supernatural event "today"'. Be up front with us. Does your worldview refuse to accept belief in miracles? Or, are you among a small number of atheists who have some concept of the supernatural? See HERE. Do you believe in the supernatural or not?

Michael Carl reports on WND on 'Rising number of Muslims reporting dreams about Jesus'. Are these legitimate or not as miracles?

Remember what Jesus said in John 14:12 (ESV)? 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father'. Therefore, we can expect 'greater works' (including miracles) to happen throughout human history - including to the present.

Oz

essentialsaltes said:

I think the Flood, as described, would have been witnessed by everyone on earth.

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You don't know how funny that sounds. "The flood, as described" as you put it was witnessed by everyone on earth but only eight survived to report it. So you have the testimony of every living witness right there.

essentialsaltes said:

So he only does puny miracles that aren't obvious?

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Who are these miracles "puny" to? With such a fascination to moving mountains you have excluded all else. Do you believe that there is only one real miracle?

As I mentioned before the text referred to says, "this mountain" and one must determine if that reveals a particular place. When you consider where they were the most likely mountain he was referring to is the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4 reveals that mountain being split and permanent rivers flowing both towards the Mediterranean and the Dead sea. The most likely cause of this is an earthquake according to the context. According to this discussion that's not very miraculous so its unlikely that it will encourage faith unless you already believe.

It is God who created nature. Miracles are not magic tricks that defy nature but it is their timing that makes them miraculous. "His feet shall stand upon the mountain" when its is cleaved. That is what makes it a miracle.

I was once asked in debate whether I should not see the miracles I have experienced as "luck". My answer was to look at the timing: every time I prayed to God in Jesus'name. That makes it obvious to me. How could I believe I just got lucky?

There is another place Mathew mentions mountains being moved, and that is at the transfiguration [Matthew 17 if I recall correctly]. At that time they were in North Israel and the mountain is believed to be Hermon. Again there is a reference in Psalms that mentions that mountain and those around it skipping as though moving from one place to another - just as Jesus referenced "If you should say to this mountain be removed to yonder place."

In both cases I believe that each mountain will be moved: the one displaced and the other into the sea through the flowing rivers just as the word of God declares.

essentialsaltes said:

This thread has been started so that you may convince me otherwise with evidence.

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What about those who speak in tongues?

essentialsaltes said:

No, Noah and his family do not provide any eyewitness testimony in Genesis. It is a story told about them.

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I suppose this is a bit of an aside, but according to one of the Tablet theories Noah would've been the originator of Genesis 5:3-6:8, his sons the originators of Genesis 6:9-9:29, and Shem in particular the originator of Genesis 10:2-11:9.

More about that here: http://creation.com/who-wrote-genesis-are-the-toledoth-colophons

essentialsaltes said:

But, as I said, "this thread has been started so that you may convince me otherwise with evidence."

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I have a feeling it's going to take the Holy Spirit to convince you.

I find that people with the attitude you're displaying are beyond reason.

It's like the guy that goes to church with the attitude:

"Go ahead, bless me if you can."

essentialsaltes said:

Well, you brought up tongues. Are there some miracles of that sort that you think are well documented?

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Go to a pentecostal or charismatic church and decide for yourself.