Where are the miracles today? Where is 'the supernatural'?

[essentialsaltes]

The god of the Old Testament performed many obvious miracles, on a literal reading:
The Flood of Noah
Destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah
Lot's Wife turning to salt
Plagues of Egypt, including three days of darkness & the death of the firstborn sons.

And individuals perform 'supernatural' deeds, like pharaoh's men turning their rods into serpents.

In the New Testament, the miracles of Jesus are manifold. And his followers displayed certain spiritual gifts:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

I understand there is some controversy about whether these gifts have continued to the present day. Be that as it may, the Bible still seems to be quite clear that believers obtain certain powers or benefits:

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Now perhaps Jesus was exaggerating when he said that faith could move mountains. But faith does not appear to allow even molehills to be moved by command. Or even a mustard seed.

The self-professed miracle workers of today are not very impressive: they babble nonsense, and claims of healings and exorcisms are not very credible.

And if the miracles of the faithful have waned in impressiveness, divine miracles appear to be completely absent today. Although the bible promises signs and wonders, and stars falling from the sky, the best that can be said is that it hasn't happened yet. Compared to the active days of the Old Testament, there seems to be no sign at all of god interfering with the natural order of things.

Why are there no miracles or supernatural events 'today'? Let's keep the focus of the discussion on the past 100 years. Who has moved a mountain?

 

[AV1611VET]

Who has moved a mountain?

I give up ... who?

Perhaps they used one (or all) of these:

1. Bucyrus RH400 Hydraulic Shovel
2. Takraf Bagger 293 Bucket-Wheel Excavator
3. Caterpillar 797F
4. Metso Mobile Crusher
5. Le Tourneau 2350

I would say that it is indeed possible to move a mountain.

Remember what James said?

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Stop scratching your head.

Get one of those bad boys and get to work.

I have faith you can do it.

 

[juvenissun]

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Now perhaps Jesus was exaggerating when he said that faith could move mountains. But faith does not appear to allow even molehills to be moved by command. Or even a mustard seed.

.....

Why are there no miracles or supernatural events 'today'? Let's keep the focus of the discussion on the past 100 years. Who has moved a mountain?

What you quoted is on Matthew 17:20. And it is one of the most wonderful verses in the Bible to me.

What Jesus says there is not an exaggeration at all. He is talking about two things. One is faith, and the other is the type of capability a disciple may have in God's Kingdom. And the whole verse is focused on the faith rather than the ability. If one has no faith on the earth, then one is not able to do the said at any time, in this life or in the eternity.

To you, what the verse says is ridiculous (you didn't say that, I said it for you). To many Christians, it is an exaggerated parable. We, whoever, disciples or not, can not move mountains on the earth. But Since Jesus the Lord says we can, then literally, we CAN. (could you imaging that I would "go" to a corner in a universe and find a small planet to make mountains there? I could not wait for that moment to become true)

Our life is not limited to this one. After this one, we will have an eternal one. For people who has enough faith on the earth, then what Jesus says is what a faithful Christian can do in the eternal life. As Jesus says: "all things are possible" for me to do. It is quite clear that no matter how much faith I have on the earth, I could not do "all things" I like to do. But I deeply believe that I could do that in the Heaven with God on my side.

As far as publicly recognized miracle, you may forget it. It won't happen today. In fact, if I witnessed such a miracle (even reported in the news), I would be alarmed and immediately know that the winter is at the end and the spring is very very near.

 

[essentialsaltes]

As far as publicly recognized miracle, you may forget it. It won't happen today.

Why not?

 

[juvenissun]

Why not?

Matthew 12: 38-39
In here, the sign of Jonah is explained in verse 40-41.

So, Christians believe there is no more "sign" after Jesus.
This is what I called the public miracle. As far as miracles happened to individuals, it is a different issue.

 

[essentialsaltes]

So, Christians believe there is no more "sign" after Jesus.
This is what I called the public miracle.

So when Constantine and his army saw the Chi Rho, that was just a propaganda lie? Or the many other Biblical miracles of the apostles (or around the apostles) in Acts, etc.? These didn't happen?

 

[anonymous person]

The god of the Old Testament performed many obvious miracles, on a literal reading:
The Flood of Noah
Destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah
Lot's Wife turning to salt
Plagues of Egypt, including three days of darkness & the death of the firstborn sons.

And individuals perform 'supernatural' deeds, like pharaoh's men turning their rods into serpents.

In the New Testament, the miracles of Jesus are manifold. And his followers displayed certain spiritual gifts:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

I understand there is some controversy about whether these gifts have continued to the present day. Be that as it may, the Bible still seems to be quite clear that believers obtain certain powers or benefits:

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Now perhaps Jesus was exaggerating when he said that faith could move mountains. But faith does not appear to allow even molehills to be moved by command. Or even a mustard seed.

The self-professed miracle workers of today are not very impressive: they babble nonsense, and claims of healings and exorcisms are not very credible.

And if the miracles of the faithful have waned in impressiveness, divine miracles appear to be completely absent today. Although the bible promises signs and wonders, and stars falling from the sky, the best that can be said is that it hasn't happened yet. Compared to the active days of the Old Testament, there seems to be no sign at all of god interfering with the natural order of things.

Why are there no miracles or supernatural events 'today'? Let's keep the focus of the discussion on the past 100 years. Who has moved a mountain?

God does not give His children faith to perform little nifty magic tricks for curious onlookers to marvel at for a moment and then go on about their merry way. He gives them power and faith to do His will.

Miracles occur everyday. There are numerous testimonies available for you to read. I myself have been oppressed by demonic spirits, maybe even possessed.

No doubt you will find my and other testimonies to these things incredible. So be it.

People are still being saved, even as I type this out. Regeneration is miraculous.

 

[juvenissun]

So when Constantine and his army saw the Chi Rho, that was just a propaganda lie? Or the many other Biblical miracles of the apostles (or around the apostles) in Acts, etc.? These didn't happen?

What performed by apostles mostly, if not all, is healing. We do have miracles of healing today. But is that a type of convincing miracle to you? I don't think so. This is what I called it the personal miracle.

I am not sure (don't think so) the story of Constantine is what really happened.

 

[essentialsaltes]

What performed by apostles mostly, if not all, is healing.

There were other miraculous occurrences performed by the apostles, or as a result of prayer:

Act 16:25
And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
Act 16:26
And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

We do have miracles of healing today. But is that a type of convincing miracle to you?

It could be, depending on what was healed. We know that spontaneous remission of cancer occurs in people of all faiths and none, so it does not provide much evidence of miraculous healing. But as others have asked, why doesn't god heal amputees? A good, well-documented, really supernatural, healing could be a powerful public miracle.

 

[essentialsaltes]

God does not give His children faith to perform little nifty magic tricks for curious onlookers to marvel at for a moment

Well, why doesn't he perform nifty little magic tricks for the faithful, who might capture cell phone video of it?

 

[anonymous person]

Well, why doesn't he perform nifty little magic tricks for the faithful, who might capture cell phone video of it?

I don't know that He doesn't.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I don't know that He doesn't.

Then why are they hiding their light under a bushel?

 

[anonymous person]

Then why are they hiding their light under a bushel?

I don't know that they are.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Well, then as I asked before... where are the miracles?

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, then as I asked before... where are the miracles?

What miracles?

Is there a cache of miracles somewhere?

On 13 December 1981, I passed from death unto life.

That was a miracle.

 

[essentialsaltes]

What miracles?

The miracles we might see if there were any gods acting today. Miracles like those reported in the past.

On 13 December 1981, I passed from death unto life.

That was a miracle.

If I understand you correctly, I'm glad you had a meaningful internal experience, but it doesn't strike me as a miracle.

 

[AV1611VET]

The miracles we might see if there were any gods acting today. Miracles like those reported in the past.

Like when Paul, who brought back Eutychus from the dead, had to later ...

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

If I understand you correctly, I'm glad you had a meaningful internal experience, but it doesn't strike me as a miracle.

Ah ... I see.

You want a miracle that strikes you as such.

Kinda like Naaman?

2 Kings 5:11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.

 

[zippy2006]

The self-professed miracle workers of today are not very impressive: they babble nonsense, and claims of healings and exorcisms are not very credible.

Perhaps this is the most remarkable statement in your post. How closely have you looked into this question? In my experience, the sort of statement you give here is often made without much in the way of effort or seriousness. So what concrete steps have you taken that allow you to make such a statement with confidence?

In the Catholic Church, the canonization of a saint generally requires a number of verified miracles, thus indicating that the person is interceding to God from heaven on our behalf. These days, one of the many criteria for legitimacy is the confirmation of an independent medical expert who is appointed to verify the miracle from a scientific perspective.

If I were to investigate such a topic, I would look into the documentation for recent canonizations. Granted, this method may require a larger window of time. According to the Harvard paper here, the average time in the last 500 years for a canonization is 181 years after the person's death. (I just Google'd this paper, but it contains a reference from Harvey, 2007 that would presumably give you more information about medical examiners).

 

[Ironhold]

One of the big issues we have today is people sitting around and waiting for miracles when they could be out there making them happen.

Often times, we can make miracles these days simply by being in the right place at the right time.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Perhaps this is the most remarkable statement in your post. How closely have you looked into this question? In my experience, the sort of statement you give here is often made without much in the way of effort or seriousness. So what concrete steps have you taken that allow you to make such a statement with confidence?

Well, I assume that miraculous happenings would not be hidden under a bushel, and would therefore be promulgated widely. I've seen the widely promulgated miracles, and I stand by my statement that they are not very impressive.

I've seen reports of milk-drinking Hindu icons and crying Christian icons and so forth, and they just don't impress. If you have better miracles to show me, I'm all ears. Or if you can explain why I *should* be impressed by a milk-drinking icon, I'm all ears. That's what this thread is all about.

According to the Harvard paper here, the average time in the last 500 years for a canonization is 181 years after the person's death. (I just Google'd this paper, but it contains a reference from Harvey, 2007 that would presumably give you more information about medical examiners).

Yes, well the church has accelerated things in recent years. While people like Junipero Serra may still wait centuries, Pope John Paul II didn't have to wait anywhere near that long. If you'd like to point out some impressive miracles among these modern saints, please point me in the right direction.