It would be very easy to tell since dead things would be popping up all over the ocean. Of course, this is a result of 1/3 of the ocean getting contaminated, which also hasn't happened yet.
Upvote
0
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
When Will Christ Return?
- Thread starter Achilles6129
- Start date
- Status
Almighty's humble servant
Fisher of men
Considering the coasts, at least 200 miles inland, would smell like a tuna factory with the power out for a month, I'd say we'd probably recognize this event.
As for the rest of the trumps, I have to believe that we will see these come to pass beginning just prior to the first and most devastating meteor.
Jesus has likened this to a woman in labor, and if anyone has children they will understand.
Around 7 months most women begin to have false labor. Contractions without dilation. The child is not ready to come, but her body feels like it is near. These false labor pains come and go, and are mostly unremarkable. As the woman near childbirth and the labor begins, the contractions are about 1-2 hours apart, and unremarkable. But the closer the birth becomes, the more painful and violent the contractions become. Finally we have our miracle. HalleluJAH to our Beloved for the miracles which complete our lives.
Now, how does this event prepare us for what is to come.
The earth is the woman. Near the return of Jesus, the earth will begin to contract, metaphorically speaking. Earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, tidal waves, tornados, hurricanes, mixing of seasons, etc.
These will become more and more intense until the time of the coming tribulation.
When we see the earth devastated, yet we remain, we know tribulation has begun, and we will see antichrist revealed. It will be him who heals these wounds, and for that, he will be raised up.
When he is raised up to be god, that begins GT, the AOD. This of course lasts 42 months, and ends with Jesus return, and the Wrath, which will be the burning away of all that is man made, and the capture of a/c, FP, and the opening of the abyss and the lake of fire for those who followed after them.
Upvote
0
zeke37
IMO...
Consider.....
1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
IMO we are not to look for a literal poisoning of the earth's water,
but rather a deception of the earth's people
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Upvote
0
- May 19, 2015
- 125,549
- 28,532
- 75
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Libertarian
Upvote
0
Still works for me ...
Anybody else have a problem?
Can't argue if you're interpreting the verses to be about all the oceans at once. But, do the verses say all the oceans? NO ..., on the contrary the verse describes a sea around just one mountain.
Rev 7:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Notice that this verse refers to but a single mountain here, not the entire earth. Hence, why would any rationally thinking person jump to the conclusion that the verse refers to all the earth's oceans? If there's a good reason to do so, by all means bring it on ...
Alright, Achilles, you seem to be agreeing that the trumpets could have happened, but that the descriptions are so nebulous they lend themselves to so many different interpretations that it's hard to choose just one. OK. Yeah. That's a problem with prophecy ... The secular world gets a lot of mileage out of this argument.
Just stick with facts and TRUTH though. The problem resolves itself.
Hmm ...,
Achilles, what do you consider would be verifiable? Would an event identified by name with a proper noun qualify as verifiable? Such an event would be clearly definitive. Not much argument about that -- particularly if the name preceded the disaster.
Perhaps you overlooked the names Wormwood and Apollyon associated with the third and fifth trumpets. Have you not learned the translations of Chernobyl and Saddam?
LOL. I'm gonna assume your mind is open to discussion of TRUTH here ...
Upvote
0
In both of the places you quote, it is made obvious that the waters being spoken of are metaphorical, so the passage is interpreted along with the context. However, in the case of the waters, it is made clear that the passage is not metaphorical, but literal. Consider:
"3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Rev. 16:3-6
This is clearly literal, and not metaphorical at all - they have killed the servants of God, so God gives them blood to drink. This can in no way be made out to be metaphorical without essentially negating the purpose of the plague.
The verse describes the sea. The sea is the sea - there really isn't "all the oceans", different names of oceans are simply given by mankind. There's simply the sea and then the land.
The mountain is cast into the sea. Again, "all the earth's oceans" is really an inaccuracy, because there is only one "ocean" it's just that we give it different names (Pacific, Atlantic, Arctic, Indian, etc.). According to the Bible, 1/3 of it turns into blood.
I don't see why the secular world would get any mileage out of it. The events will happen, I just think that they must happen in such a way as to make it plain that they have happened. If not, then what's the point of prophecy?
That's the problem with interpreting the book of Revelation historically - I really don't consider any of that type of interpretation verifiable, simply because there is an alternate explanation for Revelation which I think is better (namely, that the events simply mean what they say).
I went into the Chernobyl incident in my thread about the trumpets and vials, and actually showed that the Chernobyl incident cannot be the plague in Revelation - it's simply impossible. The Chernobyl incident would have had to contaminate all the rivers in Asia, and then some (since Asia contains approx. 30.6% of the world's river water). This didn't happen, so Chernobyl cannot be Wormwood.
In addition, if we read the description in Revelation 9 about Apollyon [Abaddon] we can see that Saddam and his armies do not fit the bill. The locusts are ordered not to kill people, only to torment them, which does not fit Saddam and his armies. In addition, the plague is directed at everyone who has "not the seal of God" on their foreheads - which, of course, would be everyone except the 144,000. However, Saddam and his armies only plagued a very small portion of the earth.
As I have stated before, I take the locust plague in Rev. 9 to be one of two things:
1) Either literal insects (and I have provided evidence to support this in my other thread)
2) Or human armies
I currently take literal insects to be the most likely interpretation.
Again, the only way to interpret Revelation is simply to conclude that the events mean exactly what they say. I think that people have a problem with this idea because they simply cannot imagine the entire ocean turning into blood (or a red-like substance). I think that this is because people simply do not understand God's power here. The plagues of Egypt were not in any way "metaphorical" but were entirely literal, so there is no reason to say that the plagues in Revelation will be anything but literal as well. God is more than capable of bringing this to pass if he wishes to.
Upvote
0
Interesting. I believe your interpretation is incorrect about the sea, the oceans, Chernobyl, Saddam, the insects, etc.
I don't see much common ground for further discussion though, Achilles, so suffice it to say I disagree with it.
Upvote
0
Ok, well let me continue a bit here on Chernobyl.
Well, let's take Chernobyl as an example. Let's read the description of the star Wormwood:
"10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." Rev. 8:10-11
The problem is that the Chernobyl event simply did not cause the third part of rivers to become contaminated. It is not a question of historical accuracy - it's just a matter of fact. If you, for example, could show that Chernobyl did contaminate approx. 1/3 of the world's rivers, then I would probably agree with you that the historical interpretation of Revelation has some merit. As it stands, though, I cannot.
The only interpretation that makes sense to me is a nuclear bomb being dropped and the subsequent fallout from this bomb.
Another example of trying to make historical interpretation fit the events of Revelation is found in Revelation 8 with the 2nd trumpet. One individual tried to claim that this represented WWII:
"8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed." Rev. 8:8-9
This individual claimed that during WWII there were 105,000 ships and that 36,000 of these were destroyed (but I could not find these statistics anywhere). Anyways, this person said that this was the 2nd trumpet because approx. 1/3 of the ships were destroyed, overlooking the fact that the third part of the sea creatures have to die as well, and the third part of the ocean must be turned into blood.
I understand that people want the events in the book of Revelation to happen, and that they want Jesus Christ to return, but I think they are being a little over-eager with the events of Revelation. No-one has yet offered me a better explanation than all the events will happen in the future. If someone should offer me a better explanation, then I will certainly consider it - but no one has (I think because they cannot) though many have tried.
Upvote
0
No, I don't think so. Joel's army is specifically described as coming during the day of the LORD, and as being God's army:
"25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you." Joel 2:25
"10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?" Joel 2:10-11
Again, sometimes they are symbolic and sometimes not. And again, sometimes the book of Revelation is symbolic and sometimes not. There is no reason to take the plagues to be anything but literal. I have shown that the blood plague must be literal or it negates the entire purpose of the plague. Show me one place in context where the plagues are shown to be symbolic.
Upvote
0
trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
Technically, the army invades before the Day of the Lord and they are destroyed after the Day of the Lord begins.
Upvote
0
LOL. Well, since you left just the slightest sliver of an opening for discussion, Achilles.
I'll bite ...
Perhaps we'd both agree that the trumpets and vials get generally more severe as they progress to higher numbers. As an example, vial 1 is simply a grievous sore upon those who worship the beast. It doesn't say that these men die from the sores. In fact, since the whole world worships the beast ... Were they to die, then Christianity could blossom. But that's not what Revelation describes. Instead, a series of escalating plagues ensue.
Let's critically analyze the fourth vial as well. Men are burned because of the sun. But only to the point of blaspheming God; they fail to repent and give God glory.
Just think about that for more than a few milliseconds. If the heat comes from the sun, then the extreme cold regions of the earth will merely be warmer than usual. In fact, the extreme cold regions will be more hospitable than usual. Obviously, this is one plague which will not have dire consequences over the entirety of the earth.
OK. I imagine you're not convinced yet that the plagues need not affect the entire earth with dire consequences ... Here's the best example:
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
How much more proof of limited extant do you need. The angel poured out his vial only on the Euphrates. The armies are gathered at Armageddon. Note carefully the phrase "kings of the earth". According to your interpretation of events throughout Revelation the following phrase would be superfluous: "and of the whole world".13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
When God means the entire earth he says so. But, he also leaves a great deal of ambiguity exactly to allow mis-interpretation (can you spell D E C E P T I O N), as should be obvious from the very same verses wherein despite the series of escalating plagues God still manages to come upon the "foolish virgins" as a thief.
Upvote
0
I'm not sure I agree with the entirety of this statement. For example, the entire ocean turning into blood is quite more devastating than the sun scorching people with great heat. But in some cases, the plagues do seem to get more severe.
In all honesty, there is no Christianity left at this point. The entire idea is that God waits until everyone is disobeying his gospel (like in the days of Noah) and then he destroys the world. I have a previous post on this, I think it's on the previous page.
Yep - Christianity has been essentially eradicated off of the face of the planet by the end, Nighthawk.
The human race does not live in the extreme cold regions of the earth. This plague would affect 99.9999 percent of the human race, which is close enough to "all" of the human race for me.
Well, unless the plague states it affects the entire earth then no. But most of the plagues plainly state what portion of the earth they affect or the fact that they affect the entire earth. For example, during the locust plague the locusts are given power to torment anyone who does not have the seal of God on their foreheads. Since we know those sealed = 144,000, then obviously the rest of the human race is the overwhelming majority of individuals. The plague, then, must be worldwide in order to affect the overwhelming majority of individuals.
The plague here plainly states what area it affects - only the great river Euphrates.
It's just an added description to "kings of the earth." The "kings of the earth" being referred to here, are, in my opinion, the ten horns upon the beast.
The only reason God comes upon the foolish virgins as a thief is because they are sleeping. If they were not sleeping, they would not be surprised by Christ's coming. The sleep being talked about is clearly a spiritual slumber:
"5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept." Mt. 25:5
"11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." Rom. 13:11
"14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." Eph. 5:14
"5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night." 1 Th. 5:5-7
Why they are in a spiritual slumber is a mystery, but it appears to be because they are following a false salvation gospel. I personally believe the "midnight cry" to be the resurrection of the two witnesses.
It is interesting that Christ says he comes around midnight. I have looked in the rest of the Bible, but I cannot find any references to "midnight" that are relevant to Matt. 25. Anyone know what "midnight" signifies?
Upvote
0
Ahh, good ..., so we're just quibbling over details here ...
Ya might ought to reconsider that, Achilles.
That directly conflicts with the sixth vial when "christians" are still around.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
This is directed specifically to Christians at the time of the sixth vial. There is simply no viable argument to be made otherwise ...
Huh???
Since when? Are you forgetting about Alaska, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Siberia, Russia? How about the land of the "midnight sun"? Finland, Norway, Sweden? How about all the cold highlands in Switzerland, Austria, Tibet, Chile, China, Peru, etc.
Such a plague wouldn't come close to the 99.9999% number you state. Methinks, you have resorted to ridiculous justifications for your argument. It's sad to see truth ignored so blatantly.
OK, ignore the facts if you will ...
LOL. That explains the lack of oil in their lamps then, too ...
But, irregardless, that wasn't the point anyway. The point is that God comes as a thief during the sixth vial. The wise virgins see the bridegroom coming and have prepared themselves. The foolish virgins are deceived and don't see him coming ...
Upvote
0
zeke37
IMO...
Rev's use of the plaugues and where they reside....
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
vvv
vv
v
now for some OT
vvv
vv
v
Amos8:9And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
11Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
13In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
so basically, this shows IMO quite clearly, that the plagues are symbolic, as death, mourning and famine are all mentioned specifically
in this end time prophet Amos's work.....
these are the same plauges
consider that this may be OT symbolism....
Upvote
0
I state:
Response:
I meant that Christianity is "essentially" eradicated off of the face of the earth at this point. Of course, there are still a few left, but not many comparatively speaking.
I said:
Response:
Very, very few people actually live in the extreme cold regions of the earth. In Canada, for example, it actually gets quite hot in the summer (at least in the areas where most people live). See Canada Temperature - Average Canada Temperature by Month and City for examples.
As for Alaska, in Anchorage the average temperature in the summer is Weather & climate | alaska.com
June: 62 degrees
July: 65 degrees
August: 64 degrees
The population of Anchorage is approx. 279, 243. Google - public data
That's close to half the people in Alaska. They could easily be affected by this plague.
As for Greenland, the entire country has a grand total of 56,328 residents, essentially the population of the size of a country town (Google - public data).
Iceland has a grand total of 317, 414 people living in it (Google - public data).
Norway - avg. temp. during the summer is 57-65 degrees F (When to Go in Norway at Frommer's).
As for the "cold highlands", very few people live in them. The point is that this plague will affect almost all of the human race, which is close enough to "all" for me. I could go on here and give some more stats, but I've said enough.
The point is that the plague affects almost all of the people on planet earth, and if you look at the population distribution you will see that. I have resorted to zero ridiculous justifications for this argument, because the argument is exactly what the Bible says:
"8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory." Rev. 16:8-9
Self-explanatory - this plague affects the overwhelming majority of the human race.
I say:
Response:
What facts? The plague only affects the great river Euphrates, as it says. And the "kings of the earth and of the whole world" appears to be the same description - many kings are coming to Armageddon. It is no doubt primarily the ten kings with the beast - maybe some other kings come along as well. I don't see how this has been misinterpreted.
I say:
Response:
Well, yes, I think the oil is the Holy Spirit. I don't see it being anything else. The oil gives light.
The entire group of virgins is awoken by the "midnight cry" (which, in my opinion, is the resurrection of the two witnesses). But it is very important to note that they're all asleep - that means deception. Christ warned several times not to sleep - Paul warns the same thing. Sleeping in the Bible is connoted negatively, and it refers to some type of deception.
Zeke, I just don't see how we can connect the plagues in Revelation to Amos. They are each in a separate context, and they're talking about totally different events. If they were talking about the same event, I could see how we might connect them - but they're not. So, just because Amos speaks symbolically does not mean that in the book of Revelation the destruction of Babylon is somehow symbolic. I think that a careful reading of chapters 17 + 18 of Revelation shows clearly that the destruction of Babylon is very literal. So I do not see any reason to take it as symbolic.
Unless the book of Revelation plainly indicates otherwise, I think it is wisest to take the plagues as literal. I have already quoted verses by Christ in the past that prove the plagues have to be literal in some sense:
"25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." Lu. 21:25-26
Distress, #4928, synoche, (Thayer's Lexicon),
1) a holding together, a narrowing
2) the contracting part of a way
3) metaph. straits, distress, anguish
Vine's on synoche: "lit., "a holding together, or compressing" (sun, "together," echo, "to hold"), was used of the narrowing of a way. It is found only in its metaphorical sense, of "straits, distress, anguish," Luk 21:25, "distress of nations,"
Perplexity, #640, aporia, (Thayer's Lexicon), 1) the state of one who is in perplexity.
Vine gives some very interesting insights on the word aporia: "akin to A, No. 1, is translated "perplexity" in Luk 21:25 (lit., "at a loss for a way," a, negative, poros, "a way, resource"), of the distress of nations, finding no solution to their embarrassments; papyri illustrations are in the sense of being at one's wit's end, at a loss how to proceed, without resources."
The nations are at a loss for a way because of what is happening to the earth. This proves that the plagues in the book of Revelation are indeed literal (at least, most of them - I would be prepared to acknowledge that the locust plague might be symbolic of an army). I think these comments by Jesus Christ are very important.
Response:
I meant that Christianity is "essentially" eradicated off of the face of the earth at this point. Of course, there are still a few left, but not many comparatively speaking.
I said:
Response:
Huh???
Since when? Are you forgetting about Alaska, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Siberia, Russia? How about the land of the "midnight sun"? Finland, Norway, Sweden? How about all the cold highlands in Switzerland, Austria, Tibet, Chile, China, Peru, etc.
Very, very few people actually live in the extreme cold regions of the earth. In Canada, for example, it actually gets quite hot in the summer (at least in the areas where most people live). See Canada Temperature - Average Canada Temperature by Month and City for examples.
As for Alaska, in Anchorage the average temperature in the summer is Weather & climate | alaska.com
June: 62 degrees
July: 65 degrees
August: 64 degrees
The population of Anchorage is approx. 279, 243. Google - public data
That's close to half the people in Alaska. They could easily be affected by this plague.
As for Greenland, the entire country has a grand total of 56,328 residents, essentially the population of the size of a country town (Google - public data).
Iceland has a grand total of 317, 414 people living in it (Google - public data).
Norway - avg. temp. during the summer is 57-65 degrees F (When to Go in Norway at Frommer's).
As for the "cold highlands", very few people live in them. The point is that this plague will affect almost all of the human race, which is close enough to "all" for me. I could go on here and give some more stats, but I've said enough.
The point is that the plague affects almost all of the people on planet earth, and if you look at the population distribution you will see that. I have resorted to zero ridiculous justifications for this argument, because the argument is exactly what the Bible says:
"8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory." Rev. 16:8-9
Self-explanatory - this plague affects the overwhelming majority of the human race.
I say:
Response:
What facts? The plague only affects the great river Euphrates, as it says. And the "kings of the earth and of the whole world" appears to be the same description - many kings are coming to Armageddon. It is no doubt primarily the ten kings with the beast - maybe some other kings come along as well. I don't see how this has been misinterpreted.
I say:
Response:
Well, yes, I think the oil is the Holy Spirit. I don't see it being anything else. The oil gives light.
The entire group of virgins is awoken by the "midnight cry" (which, in my opinion, is the resurrection of the two witnesses). But it is very important to note that they're all asleep - that means deception. Christ warned several times not to sleep - Paul warns the same thing. Sleeping in the Bible is connoted negatively, and it refers to some type of deception.
Zeke, I just don't see how we can connect the plagues in Revelation to Amos. They are each in a separate context, and they're talking about totally different events. If they were talking about the same event, I could see how we might connect them - but they're not. So, just because Amos speaks symbolically does not mean that in the book of Revelation the destruction of Babylon is somehow symbolic. I think that a careful reading of chapters 17 + 18 of Revelation shows clearly that the destruction of Babylon is very literal. So I do not see any reason to take it as symbolic.
Unless the book of Revelation plainly indicates otherwise, I think it is wisest to take the plagues as literal. I have already quoted verses by Christ in the past that prove the plagues have to be literal in some sense:
"25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." Lu. 21:25-26
Distress, #4928, synoche, (Thayer's Lexicon),
1) a holding together, a narrowing
2) the contracting part of a way
3) metaph. straits, distress, anguish
Vine's on synoche: "lit., "a holding together, or compressing" (sun, "together," echo, "to hold"), was used of the narrowing of a way. It is found only in its metaphorical sense, of "straits, distress, anguish," Luk 21:25, "distress of nations,"
Perplexity, #640, aporia, (Thayer's Lexicon), 1) the state of one who is in perplexity.
Vine gives some very interesting insights on the word aporia: "akin to A, No. 1, is translated "perplexity" in Luk 21:25 (lit., "at a loss for a way," a, negative, poros, "a way, resource"), of the distress of nations, finding no solution to their embarrassments; papyri illustrations are in the sense of being at one's wit's end, at a loss how to proceed, without resources."
The nations are at a loss for a way because of what is happening to the earth. This proves that the plagues in the book of Revelation are indeed literal (at least, most of them - I would be prepared to acknowledge that the locust plague might be symbolic of an army). I think these comments by Jesus Christ are very important.
Upvote
0
zeke37
IMO...
this scripture from Amos 8 is IMO very clearly speaking of
the Day of the Lord and that surrounding time.
I do not know how you could think otherwise??? really?
Amos8:9And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
vvv
vv
v
10And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
11Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
13In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Upvote
0
Right, but verse 10 is very much literal. Also, verse 11 does not refer to the day of the LORD - this is a new segment where God is saying that the days are coming when his real commandments are not being preached. That's why it says "the days come."
Upvote
0
zeke37
IMO...
well, there is a flood in Rev, and it is not literal
during that flood, there will be a famine....
"the days come" is a reference to the days leading up to The Day.
the bald heads will not be literal...it means something
being decked out in sackcloth means something
feasts into mournings means something
as does songs into lamentations
it is about as un-literal as it could be.
during that flood, there will be a famine....
"the days come" is a reference to the days leading up to The Day.
the bald heads will not be literal...it means something
being decked out in sackcloth means something
feasts into mournings means something
as does songs into lamentations
it is about as un-literal as it could be.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
