David Kent
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Revelation uses some rather common phrasing found in many pre-biblical priestly texts
In specific, it uses phrasing and mathematics common to Babylonian priestly cuneiform texts on the cycles of Venus and the moon ( Sin )
Context... before the destruction of the Temple or after.I'm sorry but why does it matter?
The First thing you chose to do is to discredit and disrespect Church Father's, saying Irenaeus' memory of things weren't accurate. Well, why was he even significant and a part of history at all if the guy was confused? "But lets' lift him up anyways and put him in history books, give him some credit ... although we doubt whatever he said was accurate!"
Granted, we cannot be sure of writings, quotes even exact periods of time outside the Bible. We can't be certain nor can we rely on what Church fathers said concerning the antichrist, who he was or anything else for that matter - documents outside the Bible are not iron clad
We can rely on scripture, even though scripture does not state "thus says the Lord, in the year A.D. 95, a vision came to John while he was imprisoned on the Isle of Patmus."
If Revelation was written prior to 70 A.D., AND the purpose of that message was to warn Jerusalem of the coming Great Tribulation in Jerusalem and also included warning Christians of coming persecution in the Roman empire only, it would be a very short book and not be so great. Besides Jesus had already warned them of these things, why create an entire book filled unrelated things that men would have to wrongly assign symbolic meanings to all of it - which is what many do?
It would not effect the entire world of many nations ( which scriptures states will attack Jerusalem).
It would not include the entire world population, for which Judgment Day concerns.
It would not include a Second Coming, since Jesus did not literally and physically return to Jerusalem in 67-70A.D. and set up His Millennial Kingdom. There would be no mention of such a kingdom, why if it was just spiritual in nature? The Bible already mentions in many areas, the spiritual kingdom of heaven that we are in, no need for any more detail.
There would be no mention of Him banishing sin and evil on earth for a 1000 years;
There would be no mention of Him banishing Satan and His demonic horde and changing them up for 1000 years so that those who live on earth could live without temptation, sin and evil. We have not experienced such a period of time on earth.
As far as the seven seals, trumpets and bowls and all events within, they did not occur in 70 A.D.
There would be no purpose whatsoever for the entire book of Revelation, since Jesus had already prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed in Matt. 24 and that they would all be persecuted for His name sake. Persecution throughout the world and throughout history for His name's sake has been much greater at least in numbers than it was during that period of time. Millions are currently being persecuted today for His name's sake.
No, Jesus told us of the time of His return, which reflects most of what is in the book of Revelation. A time that would bring greater stress than that of any time in history. Stress that will effect the entire globe.
The message of Revelation to the seven churches is the only message that was relevant for that time. But that message was also a message for church types throughout the Church Age as well. We can see problems that they had in those churches in ours.
No, the message of Revelation, from chapters 6-22 pertains to the end times, the Second Coming of Jesus, the Millennial Kingdom and beyond, regardless of what date you would like to assign to it. Judgment Day concerns the entire population of the world, not the fall of Jerusalem or Nero's persecution of the saints. It will be "As in the days of Noah ...", extreme. As we read through the events, we see nothing pertaining to Jerusalem 70 A.D., rather we see 1/3 of the planet on fire, over half of the population killed, a worldwide earthquake that topples all buildings, fire and brimstone, 100 lb. hailstones, the sun scorching all remaining unbelievers and destroying them. What is most significant is that we see our RESURRECTION, OUR REDEMPTION. We see the dead in Christ along with us receive new eternal bodies and are given rewards. Finally we also see Death and Hades thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. Absolutely none of these events occurred in 67-70 A.D.? We see a new heaven and new earth (the New Jerusalem, a city made out of gold, and precious stones with the Tree of Life bearing fruit).
By using textual critism, while examining many manuscripts and comparing it with all others, errors like that last pgrass are easily discarded.The syriac version of revelation starts with:
"The Revelation which God made to John the evangelist, in the Island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero Caesar"
Personally, it doesn't matter to me if the temple was there or not. It doesn't help me interpret if it is all events in the future or not. It actually doesn't help at all. You are assuming that if the temple was destroyed that John would know about it and maybe he didn't know and it was destroyed?Context... before the destruction of the Temple or after.
By using textual crutism, while examining many manuscripts and comparing it with all others, errors like that last pgrass are easily discarded.
In Matthew 24, Yeshua cautions about a time of destruction and about running into the hills and mountains. About 1/2 of the Christians (mostly still Jewish at that time) ran to the mountains when the Temple was destroyed thinking it was the end time he spoke of. Knowing the conditions from which the writers, writes, matters. Paul uses the Rules of Hillel (rules of exegesis taught in the schools of that day) and they are designed to effect context. We aren't even taught they exist, let alone can recognize and apply them when we see a guy like Paul use them (which he did over 30 times in his letters). So, it matters... anything that can effect the writer at all plays into context. Unless you are one of those Christians who think the verses before and after are context?Personally, it doesn't matter to me if the temple was there or not. It doesn't help me interpret if it is all events in the future or not. It actually doesn't help at all. You are assuming that if the temple was destroyed that John would know about it and maybe he didn't know and it was destroyed?
A hefty series of posts and thanks for the considerable effort you put into this.My personal research, part 8.
Finally, Preterists argue that in the two oldest Syriac versions of the New Testament, the title of the Revelation says, “written in Patmos, whither John was sent by Nero Caesar.” This sounds significant, until we realize that the oldest of these two versions is the Philoxenian Version, which is thought to have been made by Polycarpus of Mabug in about 508 A.D., and the other one is the Harclean version, thought to have been made by Thomas of Harkel in about 616 A.D. That is, they date from around four and five centuries after the Revelation was written! None of the older Syriac versions even contained the Revelation at all.
In conclusion, during the second through the fifth centuries at least seven Christian writers clearly stated facts that date the Revelation to within the reign of Domitian, including details that demonstrate at least four independent sources of information. Two early writers said things that could be interpreted to mean it was written earlier, but that is not a necessary conclusion from any statement made by either of them. There are only two clearly stated comments about an earlier date. One of these was made by a writer noted for historical errors. And the other comes from an eighth or seventh century copy made by an ignorant and careless scribe “given to arbitrary alteration of the text before him.” So all solid and reliable evidence points to the Revelation having been given in the later years of Domitian.
At the time Jerusalem was destroyed, the emperor of Rome was Vespasian. About nine years later he was succeeded by his son Titus, the one who had previously conquered Jerusalem. Titus ruled from approximately A.D. 79 to 81, to be succeeded by Domitian about eleven years after Jerusalem was destroyed. Domitian ruled until approximately A.D. 96, some 26 years after Jerusalem was destroyed. “Toward the end of Domitian's reign,” as Irenaeus put it, would be a few years earlier. And that is why most scholars conclude that the Revelation was written sometime between A.D. 92 and 94, with most favoring the later date.
James C. Morris
December 1, 2013
Actually that was not the Roman Empire but the Byzantine Empire.
Constantine removed the Empire, what withholdeth, and the Emperor, he that letteth, in AD 330, allowing the man of sin,the papacy, to be revealed in his time. It was nearly 300 years later in AD 607 that the emperor Phocas named the Bishop of Rome as "Universal Bishop." A title that came into effect on the death of Phocas in AD 610. The power of the Papacy was as great or greater than any other Roman Emperor for 1260 years (days in prophecy) till he had his dominions taken away in AD 1870.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
- 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
That agrees with what I posted. The Roman empire was replaced by by 10 Gothic tribes or kingdom, they gave to powers to the papacy, who overthrew them.Daniel 7:19. Then I would know the truth of the fourth animal, which was different from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured and crushed, and trampled what was left with his feet; 20. And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, before whom three fell; ..... 21. I was looking, and the same horn made war with the saints, and overpowered them; 22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23. So he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and crush it. 24. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be different from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
So you are suggesting that Revelation was written on cuniform tablets.So you missed some things in your studies ?
Not too sure how to respond to incredulity
Preterists and futurists make the same errors. They take Revelation literally, or nearly so.
They both believe it was written to the Jews and concerns only the Jews...
The early church writers knew that it referred to the church...
They also taught that references to Jews referred to Christians. Tertullian said the 144,000 were Christian martyrs, for instance.
That agrees with what I posted. The Roman empire was replaced by by 10 Gothic tribes or kingdom, they gave to powers to the papacy, who overthrew them.
You are not speaking about the Roman Empire by the Byzantime Empire. The only person who ruled in Roman after Constantine removed the empire was the papacy, the western empire did not rule from Rome.
The section of my web page about these verses:Revelations 11:1-2
Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
The outer court was given to the Gentile nations, so how do you understand these verses?
The holy city Jerusalem is trampled underfoot by the Gentiles.The section of my web page about these verses:
Revelation 11-12
Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship in it. 2 But the court which is outside the temple leave out, and don't measure it ; for it is given to the Gentiles: and they shall trample on holy city forty two months. (Three and a half years.)
Using allegorical language the first two verses in chapter eleven shows 4 things:
1: Although the temple of God referred to in these two verses is a physical building that John is seeing. This is a symbolic picture of the true temple of God written about prolifically in the New Testament. The temple represents the saints that the little horn is making war against.
2. The courtyard outside the temple being given to the Gentiles represents the sphere of influence over the culture and institutions including human government. In this case it is the little horn who is dominate in this arena. This is shown by: 8.....and look, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things......11. I was looking then because of the sound of the great words which the horn spoke:....25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand.
3. The holy city that is being trampled on is a reference to the New Jerusalem. Of which, much shall be written about when the article gets to the end of the Book of Revelation. The words "being trampled upon" equal Daniels prophetic words: 21. I was looking, and the same horn made war with the saints, and overpowered them;
4. Then of course there is the same time period in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 11:2 when this little horn tramples on, over powers and wears out the saints and they are "given into his hand." Three and one half years which is the same as forty two months.
Niether was it symbolic that the Gentiles trampled the New Jerusalem underfoot for the next 1260 years either.The holy city Jerusalem is trampled underfoot by the Gentiles.
That is not symbolic language, that is the proof that the Gentiles had already smashed Jerusalem.
So you are suggesting that Revelation was written on cuniform tablets.
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