When was Hell created?

[Tomk80]

A MUCH better paraphrase than what I see so often, that God made a bet with satan. Which He did NOT. (Your word "bet" should be replaced with something that fits better)

I'm not sure whether what this tells us about God is necessarily more positive in the paraphrase.

 

[loktai]

A MUCH better paraphrase than what I see so often, that God made a bet with satan. Which He did NOT. (Your word "bet" should be replaced with something that fits better)

I did not use the word bet at all.
Satan said to God:
"Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

"The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD."

This is not a bet at all, it is an agreement that Satan is to do what he wishes within paramaters set by God. Her PERMITTED Satan to do the things he did, and is therefore equally responsible.

 

[loktai]

Are you condemning God? Surely you can place at least a few relevant quotes about this, from Job?

Not a problem

Job 1:8
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

If Job had sinned then he would have been to blame. But it is stated he was blmaeless.

Job 1:22: In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

And again in 2:3 "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

Still says he is blameless, and God even ADMITS that he is responsible.

 

[loktai]

Was your point that you don't believe the Bible, or something else?

No that wasn't my point, but I would rather be honest with my beliefs. I was just thinking about it in the shower this morning and though it would make an interesting thread.

 

[loktai]

What is spirit, if not energy?

Energy can be measured, stored, released - can be used to power our cities, motor vehicles or destroy.

I've never observed "spirit" so I don't really know what it is. It is certainly not energy as we know it though.

 

[seeking Christ]

I'm not sure whether what this tells us about God is necessarily more positive in the paraphrase.

A good paraphrase wouldn't change the essence, at all. What are you getting out of it that is in anyway negative? Do you hate every teacher that ever gave you a test? I tend to test rather well, so I always enjoyed tests.

 

[seeking Christ]

I did not use the word bet at all.

Correct, which is why I never implied you did. (Who was I responding to there?)

Satan said to God:
"Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

"The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD."

This is not a bet at all, it is an agreement that Satan is to do what he wishes within paramaters set by God.

Correct! So simple most never accept even that much.

Her PERMITTED Satan to do the things he did, and is therefore equally responsible.

And what was Job's conclusion to all this? And how does it contrast to his wife's suggestion, of cursing God before he gave up and died?

 

[seeking Christ]

Not a problem

Job 1:8
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

You got re-directed somehow. I told you you were condemning God, and could find a quote in Job telling you that's not a very good idea.

Job 1:22: In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

And yet here you are, charging God with wrongdoing. Why isn't that sin?

And again in 2:3 "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

Still says he is blameless, and God even ADMITS that he is responsible.

Don't be distracted from the above point, which is far weightier than this argument.

 

[Tomk80]

A good paraphrase wouldn't change the essence, at all. What are you getting out of it that is in anyway negative? Do you hate every teacher that ever gave you a test? I tend to test rather well, so I always enjoyed tests.

The kind of tests described in Job? Which was completely unnecessary to begin with? Executed by the devil? Which had quite a bit of physical suffering, not the least of which several deaths?

I'd say that negative is quite an understatement here.

 

[seeking Christ]

Energy can be measured, stored, released - can be used to power our cities, motor vehicles or destroy.

I've never observed "spirit" so I don't really know what it is. It is certainly not energy as we know it though.

Fair enough. When you get an idea in your head, doesn't it energize you to go do something? Can you power a city with that energy?

I'm suggesting that "spirit" is a form of energy, not so very foreign to you. You got an idea this morning in the shower, and you created this thread. Within this thread, you display a spirit. It seems we even have some power over this spirit, to shape it as we wish? Within certain limitations, of course

 

[loktai]

Correct, which is why I never implied you did. (Who was I responding to there?)

Correct! So simple most never accept even that much.

And what was Job's conclusion to all this? And how does it contrast to his wife's suggestion, of cursing God before he gave up and died?

My apologies, got confused as to who you were responding to.

I woudl be inclinded to side with his wife, at least she had some sense to recognise that what was happening was unjust. God even says so himself, that he had been punished without reason. Just because Job didn't accept it, does not make it right.

 

[loktai]

Fair enough. When you get an idea in your head, doesn't it energize you to go do something? Can you power a city with that energy?

I'm suggesting that "spirit" is a form of energy, not so very foreign to you. You got an idea this morning in the shower, and you created this thread. Within this thread, you display a spirit. It seems we even have some power over this spirit, to shape it as we wish? Within certain limitations, of course

The idea came from electrical signals in my brain, which can be measured. You can identify which part of your brain activates when you do different activities. It is not spirit, it's biology.

 

[loktai]

You got re-directed somehow. I told you you were condemning God, and could find a quote in Job telling you that's not a very good idea.

And yet here you are, charging God with wrongdoing. Why isn't that sin?


Don't be distracted from the above point, which is far weightier than this argument.

I am happy to lay blame at the feet of God, that way he's not going to kill my family, pets and anything else I hold dear. I don't believe in an afterlife, soul or anything else, so I am not worried about what happens after I die. I'll be decomposed like the rest of the dead things.

 

[seeking Christ]

I woudl be inclinded to side with his wife, at least she had some sense to recognise that what was happening was unjust.

This is not any dichotomy within the story. Job also knew he was being punished unjustly, and mistakenly thought it was God's doing, since he wasn;t privy to chapter 1 like we are. The difference between Job (who got "saved") and his wife (who didn't get saved) is that Job knew his redeemer lived, and even though God gives and takes away, he declared "Blessed be the Name of the Lord." While Job's wife simply told Job to curse God and die.

This contrast is a MAJOR point within the story! That we should disassociate ourselves from Job's wife which is a good depiction of human nature, and "program our spirits" (for lack of a better term) to relate to Job's approach, as stated here.

 

[seeking Christ]

The idea came from electrical signals in my brain, which can be measured. You can identify which part of your brain activates when you do different activities. It is not spirit, it's biology.

Great. Now get a bunch of random chemicals and combine them so you come up with sentient life. After you do that, I'll believe your conclusion. My point being that we are more than the chemicals you assign to being your god, who is no god, and cannot save. They are just lifeless chemicals, "dust of the earth." I am more than that, and so are you.

 

[loktai]

This is not any dichotomy within the story. Job also knew he was being punished unjustly, and mistakenly thought it was God's doing, since he wasn;t privy to chapter 1 like we are. The difference between Job (who got "saved") and his wife (who didn't get saved) is that Job knew his redeemer lived, and even though God gives and takes away, he declared "Blessed be the Name of the Lord." While Job's wife simply told Job to curse God and die.

This contrast is a MAJOR point within the story! That we should disassociate ourselves from Job's wife which is a good depiction of human nature, and "program our spirits" (for lack of a better term) to relate to Job's approach, as stated here.

Job's approach is a terrible one. If we took that approach to people who committed crimes the world would be a terrible place to live.

We should seek out those who make people suffer unjustly and bring them to justice.

 

[seeking Christ]

I am happy to lay blame at the feet of God, that way he's not going to kill my family, pets and anything else I hold dear. I don't believe in an afterlife, soul or anything else, so I am not worried about what happens after I die. I'll be decomposed like the rest of the dead things.

Laying blame at the feet of God is now your protective amulet? That's a new spin on the book of Job I haven't heard before!

 

[loktai]

Great. Now get a bunch of random chemicals and combine them so you come up with sentient life. After you do that, I'll believe your conclusion. My point being that we are more than the chemicals you assign to being your god, who is no god, and cannot save. They are just lifeless chemicals, "dust of the earth." I am more than that, and so are you.

I'll do that when you prove to me the existence of the soul of this robotic arm: BBC News - Paralysed woman's thoughts control robotic arm

Stop being rediculous.

 

[loktai]

Laying blame at the feet of God is now your protective amulet? That's a new spin on the book of Job I haven't heard before!

I don't need protection from God, any more than from Zeus, Thor Anubis, Krishna, Allah, Wotan or Poseidon.