When two worldviews collide.

[stevil]

I don't think you do really. I think you probably do support government forcing morality on people, as long as it is a morality you believe in. For example, slavery. I doubt very much you would agree that government should enforce slavery for example.

There is a cross over between things people believe to be immoral and things people believe to be dangerous and harmful.
I am totally unconcerned about whether things are immoral. I certainly don't want a government forcing someone's moral beliefs onto others.

I am however concerned about things that are dangerous and harmful. I do want society to be safe. I don't care if society is "moral", couldn't care less.

Do you support anti-discrimnation laws or anti-bullying rules for government agencies such as schools? And I am not referring to actual assault. That's a crime. But what about bullying verbally?

Yes, bulling is dangerous and harmful. So I oppose it and support rules and laws against it.

But just in case you are confussed about the difference between immoral vs harmful. We could say that cheating on your spouse is something that a lot of people consider to be immoral. It isn't dangerous or harmful therefore I don't want a law against it. I am unconcerned about whether it moral or not. Coudn't care less.

Your hate speech comments are based on morality. And of course your definition of hate speech. What is hate speech exactly? It's typically reserved for people who disagree with you and of course it morphs easily into whatever you or others want it to be.

definition of hate speech?
Perhaps saying stuff derogatory of a group of people. Perhaps even promoting for others to treat a certain group of people badly, perhaps promoting laws to constrain or restrict certain groups of people.

I don't mind when people disagree with me. If I say pepsi is better than coke and someone else says coke is better than pepsi, I'm not going to claim that they are spewing hate speech, that is utter nonsense.

There are very few Christians who want Christianity codified into law. I will admit there are dominionists out there. But by and large Christians are not asking for Christianity to be codified into law or push Christianity into public schools like teaching Christian doctrine as a way everyone must live by or you will be punished in some fashion by the authorities. Unlike the wokism of today.

Many Christians want to make abortion illegal. Many Christians want to have gay Marriage be illegal.

I have no idea what you you guys term to be wokism. You seem to use it as some umbrella term for lots of things.

 

[stevevw]

So, to you Wokism means pretty much every social ideology that you dislike. You lump them all together and call them wokism.

Not every ideology because theres plenty of them and not the ones I dislike because theres evidence they exist whether a person likes them or not.

When you are cliamin I am on the left side of politics, I'll clarify for you. Not that it really matters what box you would like to put me in, I am an individual, not some generic "lefty"

Fair enough, I realize that there is a spectrum of views but its usually the extreme ends that dominate society and influence policy. It seems politics has become more polarized.

Fiscally, I'd say I am right leaning. I don't support unions, I'm weary about government intervening in corporate businesses.
Socially I'm liberal, I don't want people to be carbon copies of myself. I am happy for people to be different to me. I am not quick to judge others, I am not fascinated in the sexuality or sexual practices of others. I am a person who minds my own business.

I don't think Conservatives or traditionalists want everyone to be the same. In fact I think the Christian traditional belief that we are all made in Gods image and are equal under Christ whether Jew or Gentile, Slave or Free is the most unifying idea the West came up with. Unlike Woke identity politics which divides society into identity groups where individuality is lost because the individual has to submit their individual beliefs for the group belief.

Whereas Gods Truth is that He knows each and every person down to their individual hairs on their head. Being equal and one under Christ takes the identity out of it and unites people under one united group as Gods Children.

I am an amoralist, or a moral nihilst. I don't believe in moral truths. People can and do come up with their own set of moral beliefs, and I am fine with that. What I don't want is for people to force their moral beliefs onto others. I am happy for people to think differently.

I don't believe in the idea that people and a society can come up with their own morals. We just don't live that way in reality. If someone came up with a set of morals that allows them to take your car and wife would you be happy with that.

I certainly don't think it is the government's place to dictate what is and isn't moral.

We can agree on that one. If you believe this to be the case then why are you not objecting to the State infringing on say parental Rights or womens Rights by allowing ideological beliefs (not fact or reality) to dictate policy in education and for women respectively and society at large. Compared to years ago the State has gradually infiltrated more into our private and family lives. The family use to be a private institution out of the reach and independent of State interference. Now the State even dictates how we should bring up our kids.

I wouldn't say I am opposed to the Christian/Conservative/Traditional worldview. You can think how you want. I don't care. Just don't force it onto me and don't use it to discriminate or bully others.

I agree we should be able to think what we want. But the Woke new religion doesn't allow that and wants to force one belief about the world on everyone. The trouble is in reality people can't help but express their thinking and in doing so that thinking is percieved as hateful and discriminatory. So in some ways Woke or Identity politics & PC not only polices language but the thinking behind the language by claiming even the narrative and certain words are oppressive and hateful.

Yes, it almost always boils down to this. Some on the right believe they have the right to discriminate and be mean and bully others.
Hate speech for some reason seems to be something they are willing to fight for. And feel discriminated against when people aren't allowing them to spew hatred.

But is it really always about hate speech though or rather that people may say stuff that others just don't like to hear because it exposes the truth or facts of the situation. I mean the idea of cancelling the word 'Women' is a good example. Now if you declare that a person cannot become the opposite sex its seen as hate speech. This example is happening in many situations where long held truths and reality itself is being seen as hateful. I mean even science is seen as descriminatory.

Surely we should be able to acknowledge and stand on the truths and facts we have long held and proven. The perception that these simple long held Truths are hateful is not about hate speech but about the objectors trying to force their ideological beliefs on others and when reality doesn't fit their narrative its shut down even if that means falsely claiming its hatespeech. Its a lazy and decietful deflection to avoid the truth.

Those guys don't represent a secular government.
Not all atheists are the same. Just because some might be trying to point out that religion is nonsense, it doesn't a secular society ought to be promoting atheism.

But even claiming religion is nonsense is implicitly saying it should not be promoted or encouraged because well "its nonsense" and we don't want to allow ideas and beliefs that are nonsense influencing society. Most fair and honest scholars know that religion is not nonsense and is a vital part of being human and helping give meaning and stability to society.

Thats what I am saying that the message of the New Atheist has influenced society by the fact that many people think Christianity and religion perse is nonsense. The New Atheists became popular because they were echoing where society was at where more and more people were becoming atheists. That has continued where now people are openly rejecting God and religion even rideculing and harrassing it out of society.

Well, noone is telling Christians that they can't believe.

When ideologues claim Christianity is hateful and descriminatory by default like when they claim that traditional marriage belief is Homophobic then this is telling Christians they can't hold those beliefs in the public square. Not just that Christians can't hold beliefs but even to the point of explicitly targeting Christians to destroy them for holding those beliefs. This is happening to many Christian beliefs about family, relationships, sex, ect.

The push back is when Christians want Christianity codified into laws or into government or want to push Christianity into public schools making non Christians uncomfortable etc.

Yeah we seen that with the Creationist and Evolution dispute. Thats fair enough but if we are going to be fair and honest then this should apply to State and activist group imposed ideological beliefs in public schools and society. Trans ideology and Critical Race theory are unscientific ideological beliefs like religious belief. Why is it ok for certain beliefs to be enforced and not others. This shows the State itself is forcing a State religion on everyone.

But this goes back to what I was saying that society cannot be neutral when it comes to belief and morality. We end up on one side or another by default. Not choosing means allowing others to choose for you. The beliefs of one side will conflict with the other and both will believe they are justified. Thats why its so important that Truth and reality cohere and converge with rationality and evidence.

Or when Christian based beliefs are trying to discriminate against others e.g. against gay marriage etc.

Going back to what I was saying about percieved hate speech or wrongs by one side or the other. I think the majority of percieved descrimination by the Left and LGBTIQ+ community is the simple belief of Christians who believe marriage is a sacred institution between male and female. Thats been there belief for millenia. Simply expressing that belief is now seen as hateful and descriminatory.

No, things like outlawing SSM shouldn't come down to a popular vote.
You don't want the majority to suppress minorities.

Why, disagreeing with SSM is not against the law. If there was not a vote then that would be the majority surpressing the minority. Especially when Marriage is such a religious convention. Surely Christians should have a say in that, in changing the definition the West has lived with for millenia.

No one is forcing Christians into marring someone of the same sex.

Yes they are ironically. Trans ideology claims Transwomen is a real women even if they have not transitions ie still has all the male sex organs and the same for Transmen (biological women). The logic goes because Transwomen and Transmen are real women and men in every way we must treat them the same in every way in society otherwise its Transphobic.

So now heterosexuals including Christians heterosexuals should be willing to have relationships and marry these biological males and females posing as the opposite sex. Otherwise they are being Transphobic. In other words heterosexual men should be willing to have a relationship and marry a biological male with male appendage.

To a heterosexual that would make them gay. But somehow that doesn't count with Trans ideological thinking. In some ways its conversion therapy because its forcing straight men to be gay, and gays and lesbians to be straight. Thats why the LGB part of the LGBTIQ+ want to seperate because they disagree with Trans ideology.

That's true, that's what it is.

Are you saying "that's what it is" like we should just accept that. If it was the other way around there would be outcry of oppression and hate. It seems society is tolerating and turning a blind eye to attacks on Christianity. Sort of like they deserve it for the problems they caused in the past and because well, Christianity is nonsense and a threat.

If you are trying to outlaw gay people from getting married.
There is no benefit for you, but why do you want to ruin the lives of others????

No I am not trying to outlaw SSM. Its a civil issue now. The Church lost the influence over marriage many years ago and now the State dictates things. But there remains a conflict because now that secular societies beliefs about marriage is dominant there is a conflict with Christian beliefs and Christianity now becomes a threat in the same way secular ideas of marriage are a threat to Christianity.

Rather than Christian beliefs being tolerated in a so called plural society that allows all beliefs the State and its agents now actively target and descriminate against Christian beliefs and regarding Christian and religious Rights less of a Right than other minority groups Rights. You see this in how Christian persecution has risen in Western nations.

It makes total sense to not tolerate hate and discrimination. We, the people should unite and stand up to bullies, stand up for those that are being picked on.

Yes of course we should. But what is hate speech to one is the Truth and fact to another. How do we work out what is the case.

In a secular society, religions are not outlawed, they are protected. They just don't have the right to be mean and discriminate against others in society.

So tell me is saying that a male cannot become a female in reality descrimination or mean. Or is it just stating a scientific fact and our lived reality.

 

[Bradskii]

Not so. As I've pointed out a LOT that the scientific evidence for gender isn't there. And I reject transgenderism because it's a fraudulent and unscientific ideology that flies in the face of biology, reality and scientific principles.. .l

...and your Christian beliefs.

You believe that God made man and woman. Full stop. No evidence to the contrary will be considered. Even to the nonsensical point of denying the concept of gender.

 

[stevil]

I don't think Conservatives or traditionalists want everyone to be the same.

From what I see of USA TV, especially FoxNews is that there is a fear from the USA conservative community of USA culture changing from white Christian to something else. Hence all these claims of Replacement Theory and all this excitement of wanting to build a wall at the southern border. Trump himself was reported to have complained about getting people into USA from sh$th0!e countries, and wishing they could get people from Norway instead.

Unlike Woke identity politics

This is really only a term used in USA right wing political circles especially on opinion shows or by right wing politicians who want to campaign on culture wars rather than important national policies.

The USA left are not promoting wokism, they don't even use the term.

which divides society into identity groups where individuality is lost because the individual has to submit their individual beliefs for the group belief.

There is no truth to this at all. Just nonsense promoted by partisan opinion shows seeking to rile up their audiences.

I don't believe in the idea that people and a society can come up with their own morals.

And yet, you will be very hard pressed to find two people with exactly the same set of morals. If you think morals are all the same, then you obviously wouldn't be worried about having a devout Muslim who campains on Muslim morals as your president???

We just don't live that way in reality. If someone came up with a set of morals that allows them to take your car and wife would you be happy with that.

I don't look at the world via a moral lense. I see it from a much more pragmatic viewpoint. Obviously if someone wants to harm me or my family then I wouldn't be safe in such a society. So I want laws to protect people in order to make society safe (not moral but safe).

We can agree on that one. If you believe this to be the case then why are you not objecting to the State infringing on say parental Rights or womens Rights

I do have big problems with a government telling women what they are to do with their wombs, taking their choices away from them.
The moral decision on whether it is right or wrong to abort is the woman's decision to make, not the governments.

Now the State even dictates how we should bring up our kids.

There has always been a level of obligation on parents and caregivers of dependants and the government has always sought to intervene when childrens safety is compromised.

I agree we should be able to think what we want. But the Woke new religion

What is "woke new religion" are you just making this stuff up?

But is it really always about hate speech though or that people may say stuff they just deon't like to hear because it exposes the truth or facts of the situation. I mean the idea of cancelling the word 'Women' is a good example.

Noone has cancelled the word "women" where do you come up with this stuff?

Now if you declare that a person cannot become the opposite sex its seen as hate speech.

Noone is suggesting that people can change their sex.

But even claiming religion is nonsense is implicitly saying it should not be promoted or encouraged because well "its nonsense"

I personally think religion is nonsense. I have tried to read some of the bible and I can't for the life of me make any sense of it.
But that doesn't mean that I think it should be illegal for churches to promote their religion.
But I absolutely think that a secular government shouldn't be promoting or encouraging one religion above others.

Thats what I am saying that the message of the New Atheist has influenced society by the fact that many people think Christianity and religion perse is nonsense.

I think that far and above what Dawkins, and Hitchens and others have been publically saying. The most damage that many religions are doing is their opposing and being mean to LGQBT. The people of the world by and large are now tolerant of gays and trans and whatever, and see it as noones business, certainly not government's business. I think this hatred of Churches against the LGQBT community is what is turning people off religion today.

When ideologues claim Christianity is hateful and descriminatory by default like when they claim that traditional marriage belief is Homophobic

Noone is claiming that traditional marriage is homophobic.
When I married my wife, this was a one man, one woman marriage. It was not a statement on anyone else's marriage. There was nothing discriminatory or hating about it.
Christians can have traditional marriages, noone is going to get upset.

BUT when people refuse to bake cakes for gay weddings, and try to influence law to make gay marriage illegal, then this is seen as hatred.

then this is telling Christians they can't hold those beliefs in the public square.

But, do you really need to publically state that you think marriage should be one man, one woman? I think most people already know this is what Christians think. Do you need to keep harping on about it? Do you need to tell gays this? Do you need to try to interfere in their weddings?

Critical Race theory are unscientific ideological beliefs like religious belief.

The Left isn't promoting CRT. It's not a thing that most on the left care about. It's not being pushed on kids in school.
Unfortunately some Right wing political opinion show hosts are trying to make out that it is a BIG thing for the left and it is being forced on their children. It is not, this is just all Right wing propoganda, trying to make the left out to be dangerous boogiemen.

 

[Rev. Adam McKay PhD]

At least you are alive, you feel, can a corpse have feelings?

Two bodies on a slab one is dead one is alive, which is which?

Is it not so the corpse is cold and hard.

I do not usually feel sorry for anyone,but I can feel anothers pain with my whole being

as if it was happening to me, now and then because it is not something I decide over.

Example,

the Rebbe was engaging with a young lady by letter,

He told her, "I feel your pain"

She replied, "How can you feel my pain?"

The Rebbe answered,

"When a child is teething the mother feels the pain too"

It is about soul connection.

THIS
IS
WHY
PEOPLE
DO
NOT
GO
TO
CHURCH

 

[Rev. Adam McKay PhD]

"Rev. Adam McKay PhD"

Looks like two qualifications: Reverend usually indicates ordination of some kind and PhD usually indicates a legitimate graduate studies diploma.
Most of us would rather be anonymous at a forum such as this.

If that is what you prefer, I suppose that is fine by me. The question arises, why would one want to be a Christian and anonymous?

 

[Rev. Adam McKay PhD]

I literally posted evidence, so while you might want your statement to be correct, I don't think it is.


And given the number of false claims I've shown to be false with evidence, this conversation is starting to feel like it's really got nowhere to go.

I'm making claims that the current standards reflect our best knowledge at the time they were put in place; that they will, no doubt, continue to be refined and developed over time; and that the best people to do that work are the experts involved in it. I am also particularly concerned that some people want to deny that transgendered identity is a real developmental phenomenon, (effectively, that being trans is not real).

GAY ANIMALS.

They don't exist.

 

[Bradskii]

Do not feed.

This has been a public service announcement.

 

[Rev. Adam McKay PhD]

Do not feed.

This has been a public service announcement.

I read in a peer reviewed journal about how THERE ARE BUNCHES OF GAY ANIMALS. You know the queer birds? So many stats. OH WAIT. NONE., That mouse that have a harem of gay mice that engage in homosexual behaviors? Those lesbians penguins that always reach national geographic? "I have a gay dog, he bumps my leg while I watching lassie." Whales, birds, every freaking animals doesn't doesn't have homosexual relationships

It's JUNE in America which means middle aged men thinking about how not to get AIDS from commercials while parading around in their undies in front of so called families while we all pretend this is not sick and deranged.
I never saw a squirrel put it in the nut exit of the female squirrel he was chasing.

Seriously, no one cares what you do in your bedroom. Most of us would absolutely defend anyone against gossip and rumors. I don't care if Jack and Jill went up a hill. If a couple of gay guys went up a hill, and said it to the world that was the problem.

You know why you have been here for millions and millions of years/

 

[stevevw]

From what I see of USA TV, especially FoxNews is that there is a fear from the USA conservative community of USA culture changing from white Christian to something else. Hence all these claims of Replacement Theory and all this excitement of wanting to build a wall at the southern border. Trump himself was reported to have complained about getting people into USA from sh$th0!e countries, and wishing they could get people from Norway instead.

Not sure about Norway, they are more in line with the Left. I think the US is unique in its politics and has more Christian politics than other nations. Makes sense as they were a strong Christian foundation. But they can also be too enthusiastic to mix politics and religion I think. I deeon't think these issues are just Christians verses non Christian but also important issues for everyone which we are facing with population growth and security.

A big wall sounds a bit extreme but hasn't both sides of politics supported some sort of wall for years. I don't think having No wall is really the best option either. BUt people go to extremes on both sides eith wanting to shut everyone out or open the borders for everyone.

This is really only a term used in USA right wing political circles especially on opinion shows or by right wing politicians who want to campaign on culture wars rather than important national policies.

Its not just in the US but all Western nations. The US are just better at Opinion shows like they are in Hollywood lol. But the same issues are happening here and in Britain especially about Gender ideology, immigration, abortion, Trans Rights, bring down the West. It all starts in Universities which is suppose to provide our future leaders and professionals but is now more concerned about politics.

The USA left are not promoting wokism, they don't even use the term.

The term Woke is never used by the Left. Its a dirty worde to them. But theres ample evidence of their Wokeness in policies and language.

There is no truth to this at all. Just nonsense promoted by partisan opinion shows seeking to rile up their audiences.

So you don't think society has been edivideed into identity groups all pittede against each other. I mean even a quick reference to the past shows that race and gender was an issue and gender I mean Feminism which was about male and female gender wars. Then there was Gay liberation. But today thats to ideas like Critical theory we have deozens of identity groups all fighting for recognition and coming into conflict more and more.

For example the LGB part of LGBTIQ+ is conflicting with the 'T and Q of the groups because their ideology conflicts with Gays and especially Lesbians. The 'I' in the group is conflicting with the 'T' because the 'T' labels intersex people as Trans when they are not. Thats not counting the additional conflicts for Cis women are falling out with the 'T' because Trans ideology is erasing womens sex as a unique identity.

Add to this where now people are taking the same logic of Gender ideology which claims that people can become the identity they feel by just identifying as such the growth in people now identifying as animals, buildings, aliens, reptiles, older or younger age and a different race. Man we are in a mess with all this identity stuff becoming the new reality.

And yet, you will be very hard pressed to find two people with exactly the same set of morals.

Really, how many people would support allowing people to take their car and wife, 10%, 3% maybe 1% or perhaps no one and if they did we would say they were either mad or were inviting trouble into the neighbourhood and therefore a danger to society. So I reacken just about 100% agreement on that one.

If you think morals are all the same, then you obviously wouldn't be worried about having a devout Muslim who campains on Muslim morals as your president???

No that is the opposite of having the same morality. If a religion be it Christianity or any other believes that their moral law is God given then an opposing belief and moral would not be supported as president. But you don't have to be Christian to know that, even the secular West would not allow Muslim morality. This same position goes back a few hundered years when the US government made it clear to th Muslim nations they were making treaties with that the Muslims could not impose their religion on the US.

The question is why does a secular and moral relativist society do this in the first place when according to the secular moralists morality is relative and no moral position is right or wrong but just different. At least Christians can be consistent in denying Islam but secular moralists have no justification because otherwise they are go against their own claims that morals are relative and everyone has a right to hold beliefs and practice them.

I don't look at the world via a moral lense. I see it from a much more pragmatic viewpoint. Obviously if someone wants to harm me or my family then I wouldn't be safe in such a society. So I want laws to protect people in order to make society safe (not moral but safe).

But the behaviour that is percieved to threaten safety is determined by morals. If the meaning of safety is to protect life and limb then the moral is life and limb are worth protecting. If not who cares if people are killed and their stuff is taken.

I do have big problems with a government telling women what they are to do with their wombs, taking their choices away from them.
The moral decision on whether it is right or wrong to abort is the woman's decision to make, not the governments.

I disagree with the logic that we all have absolute autonomy. If we did there would be chaos. People sacrifice their bodies for others all the time. I just think its a sad indictment on society where a women 20 weeks pregnant can abort her baby and its called a Right.

There has always been a level of obligation on parents and caregivers of dependants and the government has always sought to intervene when childrens safety is compromised.

Yeah but not like it is today where they indoctrinate kids into their ideologies or should I say allow activist to indoctrinate kids and poison their minds against parents Rights to bring their kids up the way they believe.

What is "woke new religion" are you just making this stuff up?

Of course not. That is why I think you need to do some research. Its basically Identity politics. Have you heard of cancel Culture or Political Correctness as they are part of it. Most people have heard of these but don't really understand what they represent. It all traces back to Critical Theories such as Critical Race Theory ande Queer Theory of the 80s and 90s in which that generation brought it into academia mainly off the back of the 3rd wave Feminism.

Its like a religion in that you have to be Woke, be aware and think a certain way to be moral. Hollywood got Woke when they were constantly virtue signaling about Green and minority issues at the awards and bring politics into everything. Gillette did it when they turnede their ad for razors into a social statement that men should behave better when it was just an ad for razors.

Budlight did it when they turned off their middle class male cccustomers by getting a Transperson to seel their beer to show they were Woke and sensitive to minorities when then it should have just been about the Beer and related to their actualy customer base and not some Woke message to send into the world. Now the saying is Go Woke and Go Broke as it seems most Corporations that have become Woke have lost losts of money in doing so.

No one has cancelled the word "women" where do you come up with this stuff?

Lol I read a lot.

"Evil Womxn": The Silencing Of Biological Reality And The Technology Of Obfuscation
The recent removal of the word woman from a major Pap smear campaign by Cancer Research UK this past summer, angered women across the UK, replacing “woman” with “anyone with a cervix” as has Planned Parenthood’s removal of “pregnant woman”, now replacing this with “pregnant person” in tandem with media that is capitulating unquestioningly ideology.

Are feminists being alarmist to think that the category of women is not only under erasure but that there is a conscious political ploy to render biological females invisible? Well, when Brendan O’Neill who is usually quite critical of feminists, come to call out this very erasure of women in the public sphere, we must realize that this is a massive problem and a serious threat to the rights of women. It is time for everyone to pay close attention to what is actually going on.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/julianvigo/2018/10/26/evil-womxn-the-silencing-of-biological-reality-and-the-technology-of-obfuscation/?sh=32ad94f418fd

No one is suggesting that people can change their sex.

I really think you should do more reading and research on this whole thing. But you have to keep an open mind and try to understand both sides. I can prove that Trans Care suggests changing sex is the best Care Model for people suffeering Gender Dysphoria as its written in the WPTH and Gender Clinic Guidelines as the recommended treatment. Its based on the Affirmation and Transition Model. The idea is to Affirm opposite sex behaviour and expression and not to deny as this causes more suffering.

Then Transition treatments are recommended for those who want them such as Puberty Blockers, Cross sex Hormones and surgery. I mean Trans ideology even states that little boys and girls can be trapped in the wrong sex and can therefore change sex if they want to.

There have been a few cases now where the Court has taken an adolescent from their parents to allow them access to sex change treatment. I think maybe California has become a safe house state for runaway young people or others who want to come for transitional treatment to change sex and will prosecute anyone who tries to stop them from having access to changing sex treatment.

The Affirmation and Transition Model has been pushed into schools and the health system for a while now but people are beginning to fight back. The NHS in England and a number of Professional organisations like the Royal Doctors and American Psychological Asspciation maybe have stopped recommending the Trans Care Model as its unscientific. Yet its become the fad way to treat GD.

 

[stevevw]

I personally think religion is nonsense. I have tried to read some of the bible and I can't for the life of me make any sense of it.
But that doesn't mean that I think it should be illegal for churches to promote their religion.
But I absolutely think that a secular government shouldn't be promoting or encouraging one religion above others.

Thats fair enough but then I think in not choosing to have a unified basis for how society should be ordered we end up with might making right. Whoever can make the most noise or have the most influence such as by position or wealth will end up dictating policy and morality.

I think that far and above what Dawkins, and Hitchens and others have been publically saying. The most damage that many religions are doing is their opposing and being mean to LGQBT. The people of the world by and large are now tolerant of gays and trans and whatever, and see it as noones business, certainly not government's business. I think this hatred of Churches against the LGQBT community is what is turning people off religion today.

I really think most people have went about their business including Christians. Sure they have protested what they see as wrong for society but they realize they have no power to change things as the secular juggernaught is too powerful. I am not sure that all people accept LGBTIQ+ people around the world. Many of the Old world European countries and Russia, China, Middle east, Africa where Islam is mostly practiced. don't or are not tolerant as much. Many other countries may have 60/40 mixed support so its not 100%. There is a fairly big disagreement out there.

But once again I have to question that just because a Christian disagrees with SSM or Trans ideology means they are hateful. It doesn't mean they regard the person any less a child of God. It also doesn't mean that expressing Truths like a women is an adult biological female is hatred towards the LGBTIQ+ community either. A lot of the so calleed hatred is just people expressing the Truth which is not hate.

No one is claiming that traditional marriage is homophobic.
When I married my wife, this was a one man, one woman marriage. It was not a statement on anyone else's marriage. There was nothing discriminatory or hating about it.

That doesn't seem to be how it plays out in real livede experiences. There has been a number of cases where Christians have been hauled before the courts for simply standing on their beliefs about traditional marriage. Its when the beliefs about SSM marriage and tradeitional marriage clash that we get the problem because the Rights conflict. Which Right should be upheld. It seems lately religious Rights have fallen down the Rights scale of being worthy.

BUT when people refuse to bake cakes for gay weddings, and try to influence law to make gay marriage illegal, then this is seen as hatred.

I would have thought that a Christian cake maker would have the artistic Right to not make a cake to celebrate something that opposes their belief. Forcing them would be to force them to celebrate something they did not believe in. Do you think parents have a Right to say stop their kids from being indoctrinated by Trans ideology such as that little boys and girls can choose their sex and chnage sex.

But, do you really need to publically state that you think marriage should be one man, one woman? I think most people already know this is what Christians think. Do you need to keep harping on about it? Do you need to tell gays this? Do you need to try to interfere in their weddings?

Most Christians don't harp on about it. The times when Christians or anyone publically state their beliefs is when an opposing belief is being pushed in society and encroaches their life or their families life. But of late it has been the Green, Gender and Race ideologues and activists that have been publically stating and imposing their beliefs. Christians are just speaking up against crazy ideas that don't just effect them but everyone and especially their kids. Its natural to defend your beleifs and family.

The Left isn't promoting CRT. It's not a thing that most on the left care about. It's not being pushed on kids in school.
Unfortunately some Right wing political opinion show hosts are trying to make out that it is a BIG thing for the left and it is being forced on their children. It is not, this is just all Right wing propoganda, trying to make the left out to be dangerous boogiemen.

The research has been done and its a fact that these theories underpin academia and public policy. Its evdienced in the narrative which can be read and heard everyday. You just don't realise it yet. Like I said understand the theories and ideology and your eyes will be opened. But its hard when people are fooled by this and get indoctrinated because they cannot see the forrest through the trees so to speak. here are a couple of articles that may help.

Critical Race Theory infiltrating America’s 25 most elite private K-12 schools, according to new study

Critical Race Theory infiltrating America’s 25 most elite private K-12 schools, according to new study

A website that features a database of information on critical race theory (CRT) curricula and training in higher education unveiled a new study Monday focusing on the controversial ideology infiltrating the top 25 most elite K-12 private schools in America.

www.foxnews.com

Critical race and gender theory is endemic in American schools.

Yes, Critical Race Theory Is Being Taught in Schools

Be sure to receive our expert commentary on racial preferences and other issues. Sign up for the City Journal newsletter today. Read more of our affirmative action and preferences coverage here. To what extent, if at all, are critical race theory (CRT) and gender ideology being taught or...

www.city-journal.org

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Biology, physiology, and genetics are very clear. There is male and female. XX and XY.

You are not aware that there are actually xxy, xyy, and xyyy people ?

Here is a sister doing trans ministry at 14:14 to 29:05 offering her perspective.

Continue

 

[AACJ]

I didn't say we have to let go of all power and authority; but that we need to not be driven by (theologies of) power, control and authority. The key word there is probably control.

As long as people of faith seek to domineer those around us, we harm our witness to the Christ who emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, and humbled himself even to the point of death on a cross, for the sake of love. We cannot credibly preach that Christ while attempting to use whatever power we have to control others.

That is what society does, laws are fumulated and then imposed on everyone. Laws cannot and are not seperate from the moral component, and morality is necessarily based on some worldview. If it is not the Christian worldview imposed on others by means of societal pressure and legislation, then it will be a competing worldveiw imposed on others, such as secular humanism and scientism. It is imperative that the real Church of God take advantage of every lawful means (preaching God's Word, prayer, political activism, etc.) to seek the dominance of the Christian worldview at all levels of society. If the Christian worldview does not dominate, then another will if the Church fails in its godly duties. When a person casts his or her vote, they are seeking the dominance of their worldview. In addition, one must not confuse the nation as a whole with idividual Christians in terms of biblical requirements. Thus, to work to gain dominance of the Christian worldview in the nations is not contrary in any way to the love of Christ.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

You are not aware that there are actually xxy, xyy, and xyyy people ?

Here is a sister doing trans ministry at 14:14 to 29:05 offering her perspective.

Continue

Do you mean Klinefelter syndrome, its a chromosomal disorder, which is a chromosomal abnormality:

Klinefelter syndrome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Do you mean Klinefelter syndrome, its a chromosomal disorder, which is a chromosomal abnormality:

Klinefelter syndrome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, and the point is these claims of there being different genders have nothing to do with any scientific facts. They are merely mental and behavioral preferences that have elevated to a pseudo science.

 

[stevil]

Thats fair enough but then I think in not choosing to have a unified basis for how society should be ordered we end up with might making right. Whoever can make the most noise or have the most influence such as by position or wealth will end up dictating policy and morality.

There is no unified basis for morality. So we shouldn't bother with enforcing morality onto people as we can't choose whose morality it is that we should force onto everyone.
So what we need instead is a reasonable basis for law, one that isn't preachy, isn't trying to mother the people of society. One with serious limits in what govt can force down people's throats.

At the core, for a society it needs to be safe, stable and thriving.
So you need some minimal laws to support that. But you don't need laws to force people to some arbitrary moral standard.

I really think most people have went about their business including Christians. Sure they have protested what they see as wrong for society but they realize they have no power to change things as the secular juggernaught is too powerful.

They have managed to overturn Roe vs Wade, and now in the Christian states they are making abortion illegal a.k.a. imposing their religious beliefs to gain control of women's private gynaecological matters and her womb.

I am not sure that all people accept LGBTIQ+ people around the world. Many of the Old world European countries and Russia, China, Middle east, Africa where Islam is mostly practiced. don't or are not tolerant as much. Many other countries may have 60/40 mixed support so its not 100%. There is a fairly big disagreement out there.

Of course not, but it is getting more and more accepted, especially in 1st world free democratic countries. People have family and friends that are LGQBT and realise that their loved ones are not evil, are not harming society, but are just trying to live out their private lives as happy as they can.

But once again I have to question that just because a Christian disagrees with SSM or Trans ideology means they are hateful.

Nope, it's once the person refuses to bake a cake, or rent out a room, or makes comments that certain people are sinners, or perhaps votes to make marriage illegal etc. Just hateful and unnecessary.

It doesn't mean they regard the person any less a child of God. It also doesn't mean that expressing Truths like a women is an adult biological female is hatred towards the LGBTIQ+ community either. A lot of the so calleed hatred is just people expressing the Truth which is not hate.

Why do you capitalise the word "truth"? does captialising it give it some special meaning?
Not everyone is a child of God. I'm not, and I don't care about the bible or any religious beliefs, I don't believe them, they don't apply to me, don't force that on me please.
All this nonsense about women. Why do feel the need to worry about what a woman is or isn't?
If a "man" comes up to you wearing a dress tells you she is a woman, why do you feel the need to tel them they are a man. What does it matter?

That doesn't seem to be how it plays out in real livede experiences. There has been a number of cases where Christians have been hauled before the courts for simply standing on their beliefs about traditional marriage. Its when the beliefs about SSM marriage and tradeitional marriage clash that we get the problem because the Rights conflict. Which Right should be upheld. It seems lately religious Rights have fallen down the Rights scale of being worthy.

If people are selling stuff to the public they don't have the right to discriminate.

I would have thought that a Christian cake maker would have the artistic Right to not make a cake to celebrate something that opposes their belief.

LOL, the cake baker is nothing more that a person that bakes cakes and sells them. This cake baker isn't invited to the wedding, they aren't expected to provide a gift as a symbollic gesture to celebrate the wedding. They just bake a cake because they are interested in making financial profit.
The person making and selling the wedding dress or suit they aren't invited to the wedding also. Also the people that made the tables and chairs or the knives and forks used at the wedding, they aren't celebrating the wedding, they just produce stuff for profit.

Forcing them would be to force them to celebrate something they did not believe in.

No, not at all. Noone is forcing them to attend the wedding, in fact, they aren't wanted at the wedding, they aren't invited.

Do you think parents have a Right to say stop their kids from being indoctrinated by Trans ideology such as that little boys and girls can choose their sex and chnage sex.

I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to indoctrination.

Most Christians don't harp on about it. The times when Christians or anyone publically state their beliefs is when an opposing belief is being pushed in society and encroaches their life or their families life.

What if it has nothing to do with your life or your family life? Noone is forcing people in your life to be gay, or have same sex marriage or to be trans.

But of late it has been the Green, Gender and Race ideologues and activists that have been publically stating and imposing their beliefs. Christians are just speaking up against crazy ideas that don't just effect them but everyone and especially their kids. Its natural to defend your beleifs and family.

Typically with schools, when they do have a once a year talk about sex with children, they normally let parents know in advance and they usually let parent opt out if they don't want their kids to participate in the session.

The research has been done and its a fact that these theories underpin academia and public policy. Its evdienced in the narrative which can be read and heard everyday. You just don't realise it yet. Like I said understand the theories and ideology and your eyes will be opened. But its hard when people are fooled by this and get indoctrinated because they cannot see the forrest through the trees so to speak. here are a couple of articles that may help.

Critical Race Theory infiltrating America’s 25 most elite private K-12 schools, according to new study

Critical Race Theory infiltrating America’s 25 most elite private K-12 schools, according to new study

A website that features a database of information on critical race theory (CRT) curricula and training in higher education unveiled a new study Monday focusing on the controversial ideology infiltrating the top 25 most elite K-12 private schools in America.

www.foxnews.com

Critical race and gender theory is endemic in American schools.

Yes, Critical Race Theory Is Being Taught in Schools

Be sure to receive our expert commentary on racial preferences and other issues. Sign up for the City Journal newsletter today. Read more of our affirmative action and preferences coverage here. To what extent, if at all, are critical race theory (CRT) and gender ideology being taught or...

www.city-journal.org

Tis nonsense. Critical race theory isn't a part of school corriculm, this is just Far right paranoia and fears. They do seem to be a timid and fearful bunch. Fragile.

 

[Bradskii]

It is imperative that the real Church of God take advantage of every lawful means (preaching God's Word, prayer, political activism, etc.) to seek the dominance of the Christian worldview at all levels of society. If the Christian worldview does not dominate...

Thank you for confirming what has been said so many times in this thread.

 

[Ana the Ist]

There is a cross over between things people believe to be immoral and things people believe to be dangerous and harmful.

Harm isn't a belief though. It's a matter of reality. It's also subjective.

I am totally unconcerned about whether things are immoral. I certainly don't want a government forcing someone's moral beliefs onto others.

Hey, me neither.

I am however concerned about things that are dangerous and harmful. I do want society to be safe. I don't care if society is "moral", couldn't care less.

Yup.

Yes, bulling is dangerous and harmful. So I oppose it and support rules and laws against it.

I think he was only talking about words though. You must be thinking about physical violence. Words don't harm people.

But just in case you are confussed about the difference between immoral vs harmful. We could say that cheating on your spouse is something that a lot of people consider to be immoral. It isn't dangerous or harmful therefore I don't want a law against it.

If cheating on her causes her harm is it then something you want legislated?

I am unconcerned about whether it moral or not. Coudn't care less.


definition of hate speech?
Perhaps saying stuff derogatory of a group of people. Perhaps even promoting for others to treat a certain group of people badly, perhaps promoting laws to constrain or restrict certain groups of people.

I don't mind when people disagree with me. If I say pepsi is better than coke and someone else says coke is better than pepsi, I'm not going to claim that they are spewing hate speech, that is utter nonsense.


Many Christians want to make abortion illegal. Many Christians want to have gay Marriage be illegal.

I have no idea what you you guys term to be wokism. You seem to use it as some umbrella term for lots of things.

You're still unclear?

 

[Ana the Ist]

There is no unified basis for morality. So we shouldn't bother with enforcing morality onto people as we can't choose whose morality it is that we should force onto everyone.
So what we need instead is a reasonable basis for law, one that isn't preachy, isn't trying to mother the people of society. One with serious limits in what govt can force down people's throats.

At the core, for a society it needs to be safe, stable and thriving.
So you need some minimal laws to support that. But you don't need laws to force people to some arbitrary moral standard.

They have managed to overturn Roe vs Wade, and now in the Christian states they are making abortion illegal a.k.a. imposing their religious beliefs to gain control of women's private gynaecological matters and her womb.


Of course not, but it is getting more and more accepted, especially in 1st world free democratic countries. People have family and friends that are LGQBT and realise that their loved ones are not evil, are not harming society, but are just trying to live out their private lives as happy as they can.

Nope, it's once the person refuses to bake a cake, or rent out a room, or makes comments that certain people are sinners, or perhaps votes to make marriage illegal etc. Just hateful and unnecessary.


Why do you capitalise the word "truth"? does captialising it give it some special meaning?
Not everyone is a child of God. I'm not, and I don't care about the bible or any religious beliefs, I don't believe them, they don't apply to me, don't force that on me please.
All this nonsense about women. Why do feel the need to worry about what a woman is or isn't?
If a "man" comes up to you wearing a dress tells you she is a woman, why do you feel the need to tel them they are a man. What does it matter?

If people are selling stuff to the public they don't have the right to discriminate.


LOL, the cake baker is nothing more that a person that bakes cakes and sells them. This cake baker isn't invited to the wedding, they aren't expected to provide a gift as a symbollic gesture to celebrate the wedding. They just bake a cake because they are interested in making financial profit.
The person making and selling the wedding dress or suit they aren't invited to the wedding also. Also the people that made the tables and chairs or the knives and forks used at the wedding, they aren't celebrating the wedding, they just produce stuff for profit.


No, not at all. Noone is forcing them to attend the wedding, in fact, they aren't wanted at the wedding, they aren't invited.


I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to indoctrination.

What if it has nothing to do with your life or your family life? Noone is forcing people in your life to be gay, or have same sex marriage or to be trans.


Typically with schools, when they do have a once a year talk about sex with children, they normally let parents know in advance and they usually let parent opt out if they don't want their kids to participate in the session.


Tis nonsense. Critical race theory isn't a part of school corriculm, this is just Far right paranoia and fears. They do seem to be a timid and fearful bunch. Fragile.

Ahhh....full blown denial. Apparently people online started using the phrase "performative stupidity" whenever those stuck in the cult are unable to accept evidence of anything or just flatly deny reality.

 

[Ana the Ist]

...and your Christian beliefs.

You believe that God made man and woman. Full stop. No evidence to the contrary will be considered. Even to the nonsensical point of denying the concept of gender.

Gender is a nonsense concept.