When Rome Fell

[Tree of Life]

When Rome was sacked by the Visigoths people were concerned that it would be the end of Christianity. Since the time of Constantine, nearly 150 years earlier, Christianity had become so connected to the Roman Empire that it became difficult to imagine its existence without the empire. Ironic, because for the history of the church before Constantine, Christianity did just fine while being oppressed and persecuted by Rome.

This is an example of some of the negative side effects of aligning the Kingdom of Jesus too closely with any man made kingdom of this world. All of them will be shaken and pass away, but the Kingdom of Jesus will remain.

Is this a lesson from history that would be useful to the American church today? Why or why not?

 

[Saucy]

I don't believe there's an "American" church. There are many different churches spread all over the country who have their roots from overseas. For most Christians, it's about God and their faith. They tie their sense of morality into their faith, so that sense of morality impacts everything they do, including who they vote for.

 

[Tree of Life]

I don't believe there's an "American" church. There are many different churches spread all over the country who have their roots from overseas. For most Christians, it's about God and their faith. They tie their sense of morality into their faith, so that sense of morality impacts everything they do, including who they vote for.

My denomination, the Presbyterian Church in America, is thoroughly American. All of our churches are located in America and are filled with American citizens. All of our leaders are Americans. Our form of government has even greatly influenced the founding fathers when they framed the US Constitution. We are an American church, but not the American church.

 

[JackRT]

Ironic, because for the history of the church before Constantine, Christianity did just fine while being oppressed and persecuted by Rome.

Ironic indeed because the church persecuted quickly became the church persecuting and they were far better at it than the pagans ever were.

 

[Saucy]

My denomination, the Presbyterian Church in America, is thoroughly American. All of our churches are located in America and are filled with American citizens. All of our leaders are Americans. Our form of government has even greatly influenced the founding fathers when they framed the US Constitution. We are an American church, but not the American church.

Well, I don't know much about your particular flavor of Christianity. But, despite my church being filled with Americans, we don't consider ourselves an American church. We try to be as biblically-centered as possible.

 

[Tree of Life]

Well, I don't know much about your particular flavor of Christianity. But, despite my church being filled with Americans, we don't consider ourselves an American church. We try to be as biblically-centered as possible.

Are these two things in conflict - being American and being biblically centered?

 

[Saucy]

Are these two things in conflict - being American and being biblically centered?

Not at all. I can be an American and be a Christian. If that wasn't the case, then no one in any country is saved. The bible has a lot to say about submitting to our leaders, praying for them, paying our taxes, abiding by our country's laws, etc.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not at all. I can be an American and be a Christian. If that wasn't the case, then no one in any country is saved. The bible has a lot to say about submitting to our leaders, praying for them, paying our taxes, abiding by our country's laws, etc.

Then why wouldn't you consider your church to be an American church?

 

[Saucy]

Then why wouldn't you consider your church to be an American church?

I have no clue what you're getting at with this thread. Are you trying to make a point?

 

[Tree of Life]

I have no clue what you're getting at with this thread. Are you trying to make a point?

My point in the OP is that it's dangerous to align the church too closely with any human power structure like a nation. My question is whether the example of the church's relationship with Rome - and the church's quandary when Rome fell - is a needful source of instruction to the American church today.

You claimed that there is no American church. And I was simply asking you to clarify your claim.

 

[Saucy]

There's a "Church of England" and the "Roman Catholic Church" (so even though Rome fell, the church didn't). But there's no "Ye old American Church". I could be wrong, because I haven't studied every denomination out there, but I don't know of any church that's aligned itself with American values. When we go to church, we worship God. Our eyes are pointed toward Heaven. We don't whip out the American flag and worship it.

If this is over your frustration that people impose their faith into political constructs, that's a different thing altogether. It's usually what people feel is right or wrong. I believe abortion is murder, so I think that's a moral argument I have that I wouldn't want to vote for a politician who says it's okay to get an abortion. We all vote according to our conscious.

 

[Athanasius377]

The mixing of Altar and Throne as it is known is an issue that doesn't just affect the church in the US. My church's heritage comes straight from an established church in the Church of England. There are others, such as Churches of Norway, Sweden, etc throughout Europe where you are simply born into the church and stay on the roles whether you attend or not. As a result many of these churches are displaying evidence of internal rot since the hierarchy doesn't answer to the average member like a non-established church. Some of these state churches have been disestablished and the CoE seems to be on that path as well.

That said, the fall of Rome in the west was a shock to be sure, perhaps more meaningful to us since we are so heavily influenced by Western Europe as opposed to the East. Constantinople stood for another 1000 years after the fall of Rome until the Ottoman Turks conquered the last vestiges of the Roman Empire in 1453 (scholars call this the Byzantine Empire but the Byzantines called themselves Roman). That too sent shockwaves around the christian world especially in the Orthodox East.

That said, yes there were and are many negative effects of the intertwining of altar and throne. What is happening as the culture at large secularizes is that Christianity for the better part of a decade an probably longer has been losing its preferential treatment. While I don't see persecution coming like that of the early church or even that of our brothers and sisters in places like Nigeria or Egypt we had better begin to think what it will mean when we must stand against being considered a good "American" for the sake of being a christian. How many in our churches will continue to attend when it could be mean higher taxes, unemployment or just plain ridicule? So the effects are going to be a far smaller but more faithful and orthodox church. Cultural Christianity will die and those who are still part of the Church will be confronted head on with the full force of hostile culture that wants us to "get with the program". The unwinding of altar and throne is happening in the West before our eyes and it will be painful but I am also hopeful. Christ said he was with his Church to the end of the Age so we know who wins in the end.

Just my two cents.

 

[JackRT]

The unwinding of altar and throne is happening in the West before our eyes and it will be painful but I am also hopeful

The alignment of altar and throne has led directly to an attitude of entitlement and a perversion of Christianity that is in real opposition to the teachings of Jesus and the Bible. I think perhaps the "unwinding" of that unholy alliance might be a good thing in the long run.

 

[RDKirk]

The bible has a lot to say about submitting to our leaders, praying for them, paying our taxes, abiding by our country's laws, etc.

None of those things indicate citizenship. All legal residences and diplomats are required to do those things--it does not indicate citizenship. In Paul's time, any resident of Rome was required to do those things, whether a Roman citizen or not.

People who think Romans 13 indicates "dual citizenship" did not understand the matter either in Paul's time or today.

 

[RDKirk]

The alignment of altar and throne has led directly to an attitude of entitlement and a perversion of Christianity that is in real opposition to the teachings of Jesus and the Bible. I think perhaps the "unwinding" of that unholy alliance might be a good thing in the long run.

This is true. One writer has pointed out that the entanglement of Christianity with governments has led to the Church becoming like a cruise ship chaplain: Welcomed to the bridge during a storm to pray they can continue their cruise...but having no role in determining the destination.

Roger Williams pointed out the greater problem 'way back in 1644: When sitting in the church pew conveys social advantages, people will pack the church pews to gain the social advantages, not because they believe in Christ.

 

[Tree of Life]

There's a "Church of England"

This is the state sponsored Church of England.

and the "Roman Catholic Church" (so even though Rome fell, the church didn't).

This is named "Roman" because its chief bishop is the bishop of Rome.

But there's no "Ye old American Church". I could be wrong, because I haven't studied every denomination out there, but I don't know of any church that's aligned itself with American values.

America does not recognize or endorse any church. But plenty of churches align with "American values" simply by virtue of the fact that many American values are biblical.

When we go to church, we worship God. Our eyes are pointed toward Heaven. We don't whip out the American flag and worship it.

Do you think that the Church of England worships the Queen?

 

[tz620q]

When Rome was sacked by the Visigoths people were concerned that it would be the end of Christianity. Since the time of Constantine, nearly 150 years earlier, Christianity had become so connected to the Roman Empire that it became difficult to imagine its existence without the empire. Ironic, because for the history of the church before Constantine, Christianity did just fine while being oppressed and persecuted by Rome.

This is an example of some of the negative side effects of aligning the Kingdom of Jesus too closely with any man made kingdom of this world. All of them will be shaken and pass away, but the Kingdom of Jesus will remain.

Is this a lesson from history that would be useful to the American church today? Why or why not?

If you got a lot of time on your hands, you might read Augustine's "City of God". This was written as a reaction to the sack of Rome and tried to handle the shock and put people on the path to the "City of God", imperishable not human. I think a similar event that shakes a religion's self-image to the core would have been the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Tree of Life]

If you got a lot of time on your hands, you might read Augustine's "City of God". This was written as a reaction to the sack of Rome and tried to handle the shock and put people on the path to the "City of God", imperishable not human. I think a similar event that shakes a religion's self-image to the core would have been the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

One day I will read it in its entirety. I have too many other things I need to read atm.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Rome did not fall. The "Roman Empire" became corrupt and eroded from within.

The USA will never "fall". It is the unique democratic experiment whose glue and foundation rest on a Constitutution guaranteeing God given freedoms such as: no establishing a "state religion" and allowing "free exercise" of faith.

There is a false SCOTUS doctrine of "separation of church and state" that should be reversed. "In God We Trust"!!

 

[Rick Otto]

Rome did not fall. The "Roman Empire" became corrupt and eroded from within.

The USA will never "fall". It is the unique democratic experiment whose glue and foundation rest on a Constitutution guaranteeing God given freedoms such as: no establishing a "state religion" and allowing "free exercise" of faith.

There is a false SCOTUS doctrine of "separation of church and state" that should be reversed. "In God We Trust"!!

At this time (since 1871) it is a corporation doing business as The U.S.A., not a constitutional republic.
That's why we have a military flag and the UCC in our courtrooms, plus fraudulent and coerced adhesion contracts to gain jurisdiction.