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When is Jesus coming?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JohnR7, Mar 29, 2002.

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  1. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    I have three radio controled atomic clocks in my house right now, so I pretty much always know what time it is. They cost about $20 or $25 at Walmart and they are great.

    But before I bought them, I use to set my watch by the pastor in my church. On Wen. & Thur. morning, what we call the "God show" is live at 9 AM. We always have a 20 min. devotional time before the show.

    As far as I am concerned, just when Jesus returns, you can set your watch by the pastor in my church. Just look at what He is doing, and that will give you a time line. I do not have all the details, but I will tell you where he is at right now, and what he is doing.

    We just got a praise report from Africa. There were thousands of people delivered from witchcraft and devil worship. But even better, the pastor was invited to visit with the King and from there, he went on to visit the parlament of the country. I think he is in Swaziland. They were very receptive and happy to see him. The King has some sick people in his family and wanted prayer for himself and them. There was a boy who was handicaped who was healed and no longer needs his crutches.

    When I said we were going forth as a conquering army, I know there were people who were put off by this. But now this is a nation that has been won for God. When the angels come to seperate the sheep and the goat nations, this nation will remain to serve God. There are many other nations that will come to God also.

    China is wide open to us. I really would not be surprised if and when we go to China the governement there will not be open and receptive to us also. I have heard they persecute people there, but all of China is open to us to go anywhere we want to go right now. In fact the Rev. has already been to China twice and had no problem at all.

    So, what I am trying to say it, yes, Jesus may come at any time, but He has not come YET. So let's get out and win this world for God. Lets bring as many people into the Kingdom as we can, so we can go home to Jesus. The pull of lost souls is stronger on me, then the pull of Heaven. I want to go to heaven, I want the perfect age. But I want to go out after lost souls more. THEN when there is no one left to win for God, we can go home then.

    SO, you want to know when Jesus is going to come? Don't look at your watch, don't look at your calander, He could come anytime. Look to your heart, and look to see how many lost souls there are that we can bring to God. Thanks, JohnR7
     
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  2. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse eight). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31, "immediately after the tribulation." I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

    Amen. And the gospel we preach must include everything that Jesus taught (Matthew 28:20), including the tribulation we must face before he comes (Matthew 24:3-25). I've heard the gospel preached by some people in this manner: "Get saved now or you'll have to go through the great tribulation. God has promised all believers a rapture before the tribulation." Now what could happen to the faith of some of those saved on this basis, if there's no rapture before the tribulation? Could some possibly begin to think they might have been sold a bill of goods, and that their whole new religion might be a sham?


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

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    It is important to remember that the action described in 2 Thess 2:3-11 was already well underway at the time Paul wrote (as stated in the passage) -- and the whole passage came to pass within 10-15 years, maximum.

    As for the falling away, well that's actually recorded in our bible. Jude, for example, records the fulfillment of the endtimes apostasy. Even Hebrews was written to stave off the apostasy. St. John was fighting the antichrist heresy that hit the 1st century churches (1 Jn 2:18-19). And Paul was abandoned by everyone in Asia and gives names.

    Just something to remember as we go about rightly dividing the truth (and I don't mean what dispensationalists mean by that phrase). LOL.
     
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Today, a teaching called Preterism says that all or some of the prophecies in the New Testament were already fulfilled in the past. Full Preterism says that even the 2nd coming and rapture and resurrection have already happened, and so it destroys the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18) as it destroys their hope in the coming return of Christ (Titus 2:13, 1 Peter 1:13) and their resurrection into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52-55). Partial Preterism says that the tribulation has already happened, and so hinders some Christians from knowing, understanding, and preparing themselves for the sufferings and deceptions that are coming soon (Mark 13:23).

    Future events will undo both Full and Partial Preterism, and reveal the damage they have done.


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  5. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Dear postrib:

    You didn't do anything to refute my claim that 2 Thess 2:3-11 has a first century fulfillment. The scriptures themselves prove this.

    The action in 2 Thess 2:4-7 is ALREADY TAKING PLACE at the time Paul is writing and they all new it.

    Also, the falling away/rebellion is recorded plainly as history in our New Testament.

    Any eschatological view that willingly ignores these 1st century realities and tries to RE-construct those same scenarios in our day is likley to fail over and over again. In fact, doesn't the past 150 years of false endtimes predictions at least give reason for pause? And not just 150 years, but indeed the endtimes madness that has appeared on and off in Church history.
     
  6. sarkazma

    sarkazma New Member

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    i dissagree greatly... we are all called up to heaven in the rapture, both the living and dead.... doesnt look like this ahs happened yet... i havent seen a major judgment take place such as the one described in rev yet. also, with our nuclear tech now... its so easy for us to blow eachother up.... theres no way, given our nature as humans, that we'll be able to contain our desire to utilize this power of ours to its full extent....
     
  7. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

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    The close of human probation takes place prior to the return of Jesus. No salvation is possible after Jesus ceases His intercession as our High Priest in Heaven.

    See Rev 22:11-12, 8:5; Matt 25:10; Luke 13:25.
     
  8. niwde

    niwde Member

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    he can come anytime
    that is y jesus ask us to be prepared
    just like the parable about some servants who wait for the master and some fell asleep
    so i guess u can come anytime
    even he doesn't know when is the time
    only his father know
     
  9. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

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    Jesus cannot come anytime, unless anytime is understood to be after the gospel has gone into "every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people" AND "the harvest of the earth is ripe." "For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come."

    Additionally, God's people come to a place where she "hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Ceases His intercession? Impossible.

    Ps. 110:4: "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

    Christ is a Priest on behalf of sinners "forever." This clearly indiactes that sinners will exist on earth "forever" to enjoy the ministry of forgiveness of sins in Christ.

    Rev. 14:6: "...the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth..." (Rev. 14:6).

    Since the Gospel, which is for sinners that dwell on the earth, is "everlasting," this necessitates that sinners will be born on earth everlastingly to enjoy the blessings of the Gospel.

    Christ will never stop intercessing.

    "There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore...." (Isa. 9:7).

    His Rule, reign, and government will forever increase, indicating an ever increasing number of people who give themselves over to his reign, rule and government.

    The future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. For what wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years of ecclesiastical progress, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11). What we do know is that in Christ Jesus our Creator and our Redeemer, the future of mankind on earth under His dominion will surely be "exceeding abundantly" and incomprehensibly wonderful....

    "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21).
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    That is correct. Interestingly enough, of all the "signs" Jesus gave the apostles to signify his return was near, Paul says those 2 are the only ones left to ocourr! Indicating all but those 2 had in fact come to pass by the time Paul wrote.

    Sorry, no mention of "antichrist" in 2 Thess anywhere. Mans traditions put it there, but scripture itself does not support such a claim.

    Correct again. There is only one "2nd coming" which is the "day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night"

    Paul says the day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night is the 2nd coming.
    (1 Thess 5:2)

    Peter says that on the day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night, the Heavens and earth pass away without any "thousand year" reign first.
    (2 Peter 3:10)

    Ever wonder why there is no such thing as the "Millennial reign" in Peter's theology?
    Was he wrong?
     
  12. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    No one can say when Jesus will return. But just as we can look upon the nature of this world and tell the season so it is with the End of Time. The signs are clear...but to place a date on it, is absurd. Please listen when I say that each day you must learn to walk in Love. Be at peace and know that God will take care of those that love him.

    With everything that was happening in my life I knew that things would never be the same. No I could not predict 911...but I knew that soon our life would be changed in such a way that there would never again be a return to what we have come to consider as the norm.When our security was blown apart with the fall of the Trade Center, I like many others began to look for the return of Christ. I would read Revelations again and again. But only to become more troubled each time.

    So one night as I lay down to sleep, I said a prayer to God. I am not going to dwell in the pages of Revelation any longer. If there is something I need to understand, please give me insight.That night I had a beautiful dream.I was high above the Earth. I was at peace and I could feel love as if it were an animate object. The force holding me was so loving and caring. This love was different then anything I have ever felt on Earth ...it is impossible to describe. I was far from Earth...it was so small. I knew that this loving Spirit holding me was at work cleaning the dirt from Earth. I knew that he was preparing me a new home. My thoughts were not on what was happening to the others... I did not even have a conscience mind of anyone else. My thoughts were only toward life on the new Earth and love for the Spirit.

    I awoke and thought so that is how I will be able to bear the sorrow of all those that will be lost. God will wipe away my tears. My thoughts and hopes will only be of the New and not the Old Earth. I carried with me for days that wonderful undescribable feeling of being with God.

    :pray: LOVE
     
  13. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

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    All the text you quoted are true, but they do not say what you would have them say.

    Sin is not eternal, as you would have it.

    Heb 9:28, NASB
    so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without {reference to} sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

    "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake." (Rev 8:5).

    This indicates no more intercession for mankind!

    Jesus will not bear sin in the heavenly sanctuary ceaselessly. It will come to an end.

    In the typical system, which was a shadow of the sacrifice and priesthood of Christ, the cleansing of the sanctuary was the last service performed by the high priest in the yearly round of ministration. It was the closing work of the atonement - a removal or putting away of sin from Israel. It prefigured the closing work in the ministration of our High Priest in heaven.

    A "Shadow of Heavenly Things"

    Like the earthly sanctuary built by Moses according to the pattern shown him in the mount, Solomon's temple, with all its services, was "a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices;" its two holy places were "patterns of things in the heavens;" Christ, our great High Priest, is "a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man." As in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven, he beheld there "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." (Rev 4:5). He saw an angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." (Rev 8:3). Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven; and he saw there the "seven lamps of fire" and the "golden altar," represented by the golden candlestick and the altar of incense in the sanctuary on earth. Again, "the temple of God was opened," (Rev 11:19) and he looked within the inner veil, upon the holy of holies. Here he beheld, "the ark of His testament," represented by the sacred chest constructed by Moses to contain the law of God.

    In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," the holy of holies was opened only upon the great day of atonement, the typical day of judgment, set apart for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement, "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament," points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary. The sanctuary in heaven is the very center of Christ's work in behalf of men. It concerns every soul living upon the earth. It opens to view the plan of redemption, bringing us down to the very close of time, and revealing the triumphant issue of the contest between righteousness and sin.

    We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin, by humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people.

    Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. At that time, Christ will declare: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

    The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state - men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. Before the flood, after Noah entered the ark, God shut him in, and shut the ungodly out; but for seven days the people, knowing not that their doom was fixed, continued their careless, pleasure-loving life, and mocked the warnings of impending judgment. "So," says the Saviour, "shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men.

    In Hebrews 9 the cleansing of both the earthly and the heavenly sanctuary is plainly taught. "Almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these [the blood of animals]; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these," (HEB. 9:22, 23) even the precious blood of Christ.

    As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin-offering, and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ, and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary. And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But, before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin, and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of his atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation, a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem his people; for when he comes, his reward is with him to give to every man according to his works. (REV. 22:12).

    When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin-offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scape-goat. When Christ, by virtue of his own blood, removes the sins of his people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, he will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and his people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners.
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    OK, can you use those scriptures I cited to show me I'm wrong?
    Please show me what they really say.

    Then explain why we have an everlasting Gospel which sole purpose for existance is to be "preached to sinners who dwell on earth." Again, please use the scriptures I provided, to show my error.

    First, most Christians believe in eternal, or everlasting, punishment. Even if we propose that it is the Devil and "the beast and the false prophet" (Rev. 20:10) who are the only ones who suffer eternally, that would still add up to a cosmos wherein sin and suffering continue forever and ever. To have planet Earth free from sin and suffering while sin and suffering continue elsewhere for eternity (i.e., "the lake of fire") does not solve the philosophical problem of the existence of sin and suffering. Therefore the idea of a universe in which sin and suffering continue for eternity is not at all a uniquely preterist problem. Unless you are a Universalist or an annihilationist, it seems that your objection may have more to do with the locale of sin and suffering than with the mere existence of it.

    The existence of sin in the universe in no way implies the victory of sin. Nor does the continued existence of sin in the universe at all imply a "stalemate" between righteousness and sin. If it did, then we would be forced to say that God has as of yet won zero decisive victories over sin, since sin still exists. The idea that the mere existence of sin in the universe implies the non-victory of righteousness in the universe is an existential philosophy that devalues all that has thus far been wrought by the cross of Christ.

    While I find myself, amazingly, in much agreement with your "shadow -> fulfillment" illustration of Jesus as our High Priest, The way you apporach it poses some problems for me.

    Not the least of which is the fact that , Only when the High priest came out of the Holy of Holies did the people know their atonement had been achieved. If the sacrifice was not acepted, the priest died on the spot. This got so rampant that they attached bells to the priests robe, and tied a rope around their foot. When the bells stopped, they could tug on the rope to remove the dead priest as they knew the sacrifice had not been accepted.

    If our High priest has not returned a "2nd time, apart from sin for salvation" we are not yet saved!

    If our High priest has not yet come, we'd better start pullin on the rope!
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
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    The New Covenant is everlasting. Christ ever lives to make intercession. The gospel we preach is the everlasting gospel:

    Hebrews 13:20
    Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant

    Hebrews 7:25
    Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them.

    Revelation 14:6
    And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
     
  16. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

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    Um.....could you elaborate on that please. I'm not quite sure I follow.
     
  17. good_news

    good_news Jesus Saves (or does he?) :cry:

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    maybe he is coming w/i the next 2 thousand years...probably sooner. There is evidence that the Church will fall w/i the next 2 thousand years so maybe it has to do with our Lord Jesus Christ's coming.
     
  18. b_o_b

    b_o_b New Member

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    you know, I read that too... Whoah I wonder whats gonna happen... Theres already evidence of the great falling. I dont know if it b/c of the coming...hopefully it is but...i dont know... If anyone else has read up on the fall of the church in the next 2 thousand yrs pls post...
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Church will fall? Can Christ fail? Brothers, get your heads in the game and read Matt 16:18-19 and verses like it. Also, "throughout all ages world without end" is a very long time.

    Ephesians 3:21
    Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well Ephesian,
    I was commenting on the typology of the OT priesthood that forshadowed Christs redemptive work as our High Priest.

    In The OT, the priest entered the Holy of Holies to sprinkle the sacrificial bood on the altar. If the sacrifice was accepted, the priest would return out of the Holy of Holies, lay hands on the scapegoat, signifying to all that atonement had been achieved.

    Only AFTER the priest returned could anyone know if the sacrifice had been accepted.

    Likewise, Only if our High priest (Jesus) has returned can we know we are saved.

    Hope that helps!
     
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