When Future Children Ask.....

[Foon Nerfdahl]

The Bible says both that slavery is fine (and even gives regulations on how to treat slaves fairly) and that you should love your neighbour. The early church didn't protest slavery because it never occured to them to do so, and besides, there probably wasn't much of a viable alternative.

Foon Opines:

Poppycock.

We live in the here and now and anyone of average intelligence can see that slavery as practiced for the last few hundred years is far, FAR, from fine.

It is ugly and vicious exploitation of humans and a violation of their human rights.

The wage slavery now practiced by the rich against the poor is no better in God's eyes, by the way. If you are an employer and pay minimum wage and no benefits......you are no better than a southern slaver of the 1800s.

Maybe worse, because we are now living in a FAR more sophisticated age and should know better......ignorant southern slavers had some excuse, as Arty points out.

I can't BELIEVE how people LIE to themselves to feel better.

 

[KCDAD]

The wage slavery now practiced by the rich against the poor is no better in God's eyes, by the way. If you are an employer and pay minimum wage and no benefits......you are no better than a southern slaver of the 1800s.

I can't believe I am agreeing with you. At least I can have some peace in that you went over the top with saying they were no better than slavers in the 1800s. How did you miss the "type of slavery that the Bible talks about is a humane type" comment?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

I can't believe I am agreeing with you.

Foon Shudders with Dismay:

Easy, big fella......we're not kindred spirits yet.

 

[artybloke]

Poppycock.

Foon, please note what I said. I said the early church.

I don't believe the early church got everything right; it could only deal with things that were of immediate relevance. I don't suppose slavery was any better in the 1st century, and it was as against the spirit of the Gospel then as now, only people didn't realise it because it wasn't brought to their attention. It took the Quakers and new economic systems to bring it to our attention.

 

[NateBlack]

Some churches failed to speak out against slavery. Some churches failed to speak out for integration and civil rights. Those churches cannot pretend they did not fail.....it is fact that they failed.

In time, the smoke screen of propaganda will clear and people will see the horrific reality of what happened in Iraq and why.

When future children ask why the churches did not protest the current American aggression and atrocities in Iraq......

The churches will only be able to hang their heads in shame.

There IS no excuse.

Amen and amen.

 

[KCDAD]

FOON:
The churches will only be able to hang their heads in shame.There IS no excuse.

Amen and amen.

Just as The RCC hangs it head in shame over WWII and The Free World hangs it head over Stalinist Russia... doin nothing about attrocities is worse than doing the wrong thing.

America will hold its head high irregardless of the Anglican Church or anyone else wringing their hands while doing nothing about terrorism, Muslim extremism and North Korea's nuclear threats.

"Do something. Even if it's wrong, DO SOMETHING!"

 

[Im_A]

FOON:
The churches will only be able to hang their heads in shame.There IS no excuse.

Just as The RCC hangs it head in shame over WWII and The Free World hangs it head over Stalinist Russia... doin nothing about attrocities is worse than doing the wrong thing.

America will hold its head high irregardless of the Anglican Church or anyone else wringing their hands while doing nothing about terrorism, Muslim extremism and North Korea's nuclear threats.

"Do something. Even if it's wrong, DO SOMETHING!"

even tho i'm not totally pro-war, all i can say to this is AMEN.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Foon, please note what I said. I said the early church.

I don't believe the early church got everything right; it could only deal with things that were of immediate relevance. I don't suppose slavery was any better in the 1st century, and it was as against the spirit of the Gospel then as now, only people didn't realise it because it wasn't brought to their attention. It took the Quakers and new economic systems to bring it to our attention.

Foon Opines with Great Emotion:

I disagree.

Early church, late church.....what the hell have either of them gotten right?

And I absolutely disagree that the early church didn't know slavery was wrong......placing someone in bondage should weigh heavily on the conscience no matter what the age.

Evil people simply lack conscience.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

"Do something. Even if it's wrong, DO SOMETHING!"

Foon says:

Yeah......there's a noble and highly intelligent goal.

 

[non-religious]

[Foon Nerfdahl]Foon says:

Yeah......there's a noble and highly intelligent goal.

My sentiments exactly.....

 

[artybloke]

And I absolutely disagree that the early church didn't know slavery was wrong......placing someone in bondage should weigh heavily on the conscience no matter what the age.

Provide some evidence that the early church thought slavery was wrong then. As far as I am aware, no-one objected at the time.

 

[Mling]

Well, there was that little comment Paul made that, in God, all social divisions are meaningless--male/female, slave/free. It is certainly possible that he extended that thought to "so those divisions shouldn't occur on Earth, either." Thing is, what's the point of starting a major social movement if you believe the world is going to end tonight after dinner?

 

[artybloke]

You can't read back into the 1st century and expect the people there to think like us. As Mling points out, Paul probably had the idea that Christ was coming back soon anyway, so changing society wasn't important.

Like everyone here, I think that slavery is evil. I think war is evil, and I'm essentially a pacifist. But I don't expect to go to the Bible and find my own values reflected back at me as if the Bible was a mirror. The church has done that for centuries, and it's exactly what the fundamentalists do when they say that "homosexuality is wrong" but ripping off the poor isn't. They - to quote a certain Albert Schwiezer - look down the well of history and see their own faces relected in the water at the bottom.

I think we need to regain a sense of the strangeness of the ancient world, of the culture from which the Bible and Christianity itself, sprang - to learn from that strangeness, but also to see that we can't help but read ourselves into scripture, especially when we assume that we're not.

The ancient world could no more see slavery as wrong than it could see the sun as the centre of the solar system. There may have been exceptions who predate the enlightenment view of human beings as equal, and it may certainly be an implication of the teachings of Christ and Paul. But it was an implication that needed eyes to see it. Once your eyes are opened, it seems obvious; but until then you might as well be blind.

 

[mark53]

Foon Opines:

Poppycock.

We live in the here and now and anyone of average intelligence can see that slavery as practiced for the last few hundred years is far, FAR, from fine.

It is ugly and vicious exploitation of humans and a violation of their human rights.

The wage slavery now practiced by the rich against the poor is no better in God's eyes, by the way. If you are an employer and pay minimum wage and no benefits......you are no better than a southern slaver of the 1800s.

Maybe worse, because we are now living in a FAR more sophisticated age and should know better......ignorant southern slavers had some excuse, as Arty points out.

I can't BELIEVE how people LIE to themselves to feel better.

Oh, I don't know? Enlightened?!?

Here in Australian one can be sacked for no reason at all. Then rehired (if lucky??) on a much smaller wage with little or no conditions. UNLESS, one is in management then one can name his wage and his conditions.

People escaping from other countries get put into prisons on islands off the coast of Australia - men, women and children.

Where is the care for people!?

Even in many, or most, of our Churches it is 'right doctrine' that is important NOT people!

We are going backwards!

What's next!!!?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Arty and Mark......perhaps the real truth is that people have been pretty much the same through the ages.

We of the 21st Century too often think that people of the First Century must have been pretty backward by our standards.

In truth, they were just as smart, corrupt, idealistic, noble, good and evil as we are today.

They had Paul......we have Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, and Jerry Falwell.

They had the Roman Empire......we have the American Empire.

They had slavery and we have slavery.

We are all God's children and we all have a conscience......I doubt that any human being, at least DEEP down inside, does not know that slavery is wrong.......

And I include early Jewish and Roman slavery and bullwhip Southern slavery and Northern wage slavery and the vile exploitation done by the British "Empire" in that statement.

If there are a few who don't understand that, God help them and I pity them.

The point is.......by now we SHOULD be starting to figure things out and choosing to do better........shouldn't we?

So let's continue to vigorously hold the oppressors accountable, because if we fail to do that, if we get lazy, if we give up......we are no better than they are.

 

[KCDAD]

perhaps the real truth is that people have been pretty much the same through the ages.

Perhaps "truth" ought not be a word you use in your postings...

Some people might accuse you of painting with too wide a brush. On the other hand I say you don't use a brush at all but just dump the whole can out at once.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Some churches failed to speak out against slavery

... or many other atrocities

Life is not fair, it is not the goal of the church to make like fair, but for us to understand that life does not have to be fair to be fulfilling.

 

[artybloke]

Arty and Mark......perhaps the real truth is that people have been pretty much the same through the ages.

We of the 21st Century too often think that people of the First Century must have been pretty backward by our standards.

In truth, they were just as smart, corrupt, idealistic, noble, good and evil as we are today.

Again, provide some evidence. I don't think that the ancient world was "backward" - but I do think they thought very differently from us. They had much less of a belief in individual autonomy, for instance. I agree with the last sentence.

But I'm not arguing that slavery was ever right - just that I'm very doubtful that such a thing as a universal conscience that "knows" that something is wrong even though nothing in society confirms that "knowledge" actually exists. Maybe I've been infected by the Post-Modernist bug too much, but I don't think that there is anything "innate" like a conscience in us; conscience is as affected by the society and the zeitgeist we live in as is everything else. I think the idea of what is good and evil has to be taught; and it is, from the moment we're born to the moment we die.

Which is why I think education in civics and ethics is so important.

The point is.......by now we SHOULD be starting to figure things out and choosing to do better........shouldn't we?

Absolutely. Now that we have the knowledge that it is wrong, then we should act accordingly. But I'm not about to start blaming people from the past for not doing something I think they ought to have done. That includes St Paul, and I'm no great fan of everything he said.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

... or many other atrocities

Life is not fair, it is not the goal of the church to make like fair, but for us to understand that life does not have to be fair to be fulfilling.

Foon Responds:

Ah yes.....the Republican stance.



People like you inspired the old Union song, "You'll Get Pie in the Sky When You Die."

Those who wished to exploit the poor used "Christian" teachings to argue that the workers should not organize for fair treatment, but instead take whatever the bosses would give them and God would reward them in heaven.

Pretty convenient.

We know what you are........and GOD does too.

 

[Vegas]

Those who wished to exploit the poor used "Christian" teachings to argue that the workers should not organize for fair treatment, but instead take whatever the bosses would give them and God would reward them in heaven.

Isn't that what the godless socialists used to say to the peasants, too? Naturally, not the God part... but that the state would determine what was best for everyone.

I like the quote from the Russian farmer after the fall of the U.S.S.R... everything the Capitalists said about Communism was true... but everything the Communists said about Capitalism turns out to be true also.