When Future Children Ask.....

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Some churches failed to speak out against slavery. Some churches failed to speak out for integration and civil rights. Those churches cannot pretend they did not fail.....it is fact that they failed.

In time, the smoke screen of propaganda will clear and people will see the horrific reality of what happened in Iraq and why.

When future children ask why the churches did not protest the current American aggression and atrocities in Iraq......

The churches will only be able to hang their heads in shame.

There IS no excuse.

 

[Im_A]

if what you say is true, meaning with we'll see the reality of the war, and after all it has passed, and if some child asks me, well, it depends. i won't lead any other parent's kid down another political agenda on some past war. but also, the best answer i could give them is, either you forgive the church or you don't...the choice is up to you. or say to them, remain innocent and don't worry about things now that you will worry about later and keep your youth.

and even if all that you say is true here, it's like all the questions asked by non-Christians about the wars the church started in the past, or the silence of the Catholic Church during the Holocaust. it's kind of pointless to make up some justification, or condemnation on the church's position of some past war. and at least with the Holocaust, Pope John Paul II apologized for the silence, so people need to learn to forgive and if they can't learn to forgive, might as well stop with the pointless questions.

 

[acius]

That might happen, depends on who gets to write the history on the subject.

 

[Stinker]

The teaching of the New Testament is that the corporate church/s are not to be politically active. It's members are to direct it's politics as individuals.

The reason that many southern Christians did not try to speak out against slavery is because the New Testament implies that though slavery is moral and may be legal in many communities throughout the world, it is not a spiritual practice.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

The teaching of the New Testament is that the corporate church/s are not to be politically active. It's members are to direct it's politics as individuals.

The reason that many southern Christians did not try to speak out against slavery is because the New Testament implies that though slavery is moral and may be legal in many communities throughout the world, it is not a spiritual practice.

Foon Laughs:

Ah.....convenient excuses.

You realize that you are using the same "politics" excuse that German Christians used to justify and rationalize their failure to stand against Hitler?

And, yes......I almost believe that the Southern Christians were so righteous that they obeyed God when they supported slavery and racism.

Not.

 

[acius]

The bible says slavery is fine, why should they need to apologize if god is unchanging and eternal? That would make slavery moral.

Also, where doesn the NT say to stay out of politics? Does anyone have a chapter and verse, i'd like to read that.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

The bible says slavery is fine, why should they need to apologize if god is unchanging and eternal? That would make slavery moral.

Also, where doesn the NT say to stay out of politics? Does anyone have a chapter and verse, i'd like to read that.

Foon assists:

The Bible doesn't say slavery is fine......it says love your neighbor.

It is possible for the weak-minded to misconstrue things that the idiot Paul wrote about submitting to government authority.

Thus they can justify their support of war crimes.

 

[acius]

Leviticus gives explicit rules on how to moraly own slaves. Proverbs recomends beating your slaves so that they stay subserviant. I'd say that's a fairly clear go ahead for slavery.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Leviticus gives explicit rules on how to moraly own slaves. Proverbs recomends beating your slaves so that they stay subserviant. I'd say that's a fairly clear go ahead for slavery.

Foon Sighs HEAVILY:

Only for OT people......Jesus brought a New Deal.......old rules are out, "Love your neighbor" is in.

 

[DistillMyHeart]

Leviticus gives explicit rules on how to moraly own slaves. .. I'd say that's a fairly clear go ahead for slavery.

To be honest, alot of the "Slavery Rules" in the Jewish Torah, have more to do with indentured servants.

 

[non-religious]

[acius]The bible says slavery is fine, why should they need to apologize if god is unchanging and eternal? That would make slavery moral.

You are kidding me right? So my ancestors were brutalized, raped, sold and slaughtered and God was fine with that? Is that what you're saying?

 

[elman]

Foon Laughs:

Ah.....convenient excuses.

You realize that you are using the same "politics" excuse that German Christians used to justify and rationalize their failure to stand against Hitler?

And, yes......I almost believe that the Southern Christians were so righteous that they obeyed God when they supported slavery and racism.

Not.

Since you believe we should have stood up agains Hitler, how about the new Hitler of Iran? Should he and his anti zionism be stood up against?

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Since you believe we should have stood up agains Hitler, how about the new Hitler of Iran? Should he and his anti zionism be stood up against?

Foon Opines:

Since the Zio-Nazis are murderers and land thieves, I'm pleased to see someone coming out against them. Gutless politicians in America seem far too cowardly to come out in favor of the Palestinians, so help does not seem to be near. We can only continue to speak out.

The dual illegal occupations of Iraq and Palestine should be our first concern in bringing peace to the Middle East.

 

[Im_A]

You are kidding me right? So my ancestors were brutalized, raped, sold and slaughtered and God was fine with that? Is that what you're saying?

i don't think acius is going that far here. (hopefully acius doesn't mind saying this )

i just think it is quite easily to be seen that slavery wasn't looked down upon...it's just in the scriptures slaves were to be treated good, instead of the way that slaves have been treated many times since then.

on the lines of if God is ok with slavery, well, i don't know if God is ok with it, but Moses and Paul seemed to be. i don't know if the Bible lines out penalties to those who mistreat slaves.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

As has been stated before, the OT contains many horrible things, slavery among them.

That does not mean God approves of slavery, or murder, or genocide or stoning.........it just means that it happened (or at least was contained in the stories).

The NT took a different tack and began to teach love of neighbor......love does no harm to a neighbor.....only good.

Obviously, at that point, slavery was out.

It really doesn't matter if Paul waffled about it......it was still out.

 

[wiggsfly]

What about the rest of America's aggressions? American arrogance has far more syptoms than the current Iraq war.

 

[non-religious]

[elman]Since you believe we should have stood up agains Hitler, how about the new Hitler of Iran? Should he and his anti zionism be stood up against?

Oh please.... Iran have just as much right to have the means to defend themselves as we do. It's patantly hypocritical for anyone to suggest they shouldn't. His remarks are obviously wrong and the International community have all condemned him for those comments. New Hitler.....Give me a break....

 

[KCDAD]

It looks like Neville Chamberlain, Charles Lindbergh and Joseph Kennedy preceded me on this thread. I thought anti-semiticism was considered passe among the liberal community.

 

[artybloke]

The Bible doesn't say slavery is fine......it says love your neighbor.

That depends which pair of scissors you're carrying: the liberal or the conservative.

The Bible says both that slavery is fine (and even gives regulations on how to treat slaves fairly) and that you should love your neighbour. The early church didn't protest slavery because it never occured to them to do so, and besides, there probably wasn't much of a viable alternative.

Which is why I don't think it's a good idea to go to the Bible to find your morality, or at least for a set of hard and fast rules that are totally unbendable. You have to go to Jesus: and, of course, he didn't say anything directly about slavery, or indeed against war, or in favour of higher taxes for the rich, or a good health service, or (pick your policy...)

All of which means what exactly? That Jesus would have approved of going to war? How does going to war in Iraq measure against love of neighbour? Well, lying about WMDs doesn't seem very loving...

...But then there's the Balkans. Should we have let them blast seven kinds of hell out of each other, or should we have interfered? And there's the 2nd World War: should we have resisted the evil of Nazism in the way we did, or was there an alternative? etc... I'm speaking here as a questioning pacifist.

Trying to work out what is right is always going to be difficult, and there is no specific political programme in the Bible. That doesn't mean that it's all about individual salvation and isn't about how we live in society, however. A faith that doesn't affect the way we vote or act in society hasn't yet touched to the roots of us.

 

[BH2005]

You are kidding me right? So my ancestors were brutalized, raped, sold and slaughtered and God was fine with that? Is that what you're saying?

The Bible does say that slavery of a sort was alright but not brutalization and rape etc. The type of slavery that the Bible talks about is a humane type and not one that was based on race. Anyway I don't know all the details but the point is our present day conception of slavery is very different than the Israelites and the slavery discussed in the Bible.