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DeaconDean said:Another typing error, forgive me. I meant:
He could come back just like the post-tribbers think.
ForeverSaved said:You ought not to pray to be left behind, but pray with the hope of the return of Christ to be taken (Matt. 24.40-41). Death is not to be hoped for in martyrdom.
Jebediah said:I don't hope for martyrdom, I want to help those who suffer and fight the good fight. Besides, I have some history before I was saved...if I get a chance to do something personal to fight the kind of evil I have helped come into the world before I was saved, I want to take it.
But I don't want to be a martyr...I want to see it all through.
Jebediah said:I don't hope for martyrdom, I want to help those who suffer and fight the good fight. Besides, I have some history before I was saved...if I get a chance to do something personal to fight the kind of evil I have helped come into the world before I was saved, I want to take it.
But I don't want to be a martyr...I want to see it all through.
ForeverSaved said:The hope is to be raptured at first rapture. If your hope is not to be raptured at first rapture, you will not be received to the throne (Rev. 7.9) before the trumpets of the Tribulation because you did not abide in God's word, and preferred to allow your curiosity to get the better of you. God's hope is that He can receive you at first rapture, so why do you have another desire than God's?
For Christians who were not taken, but "left" (Matt. 24.40-41), they shall be tested further in the time of testing, even unto martyrdom. Do not hope to go through this time of testing because if that is your hope, then you will likely not receive the reward of reigning with Christ in the millennium, because your hope was not right before God. If those that had the proper hope, yet still entered into the Tribulation, how much more will you not receive reward because your hope was not right?
Jebediah said:At this point our opinions diverge. I do not see anything about God telling me to hope anything in Rev. 7, nor in Matt 24.
Also, I am saved. No thought is going to damn me now. Moses and Abraham both argued with God, made their points, and God acceded. What we have is a relationship, first and foremost. It lives, grows, breathes and moves, and relationships are dynamic. Chuck Missler, an amazing teacher of scripture, calls it a "governing dynamic", a great way of putting it.
I am also reasonably sure that Christ sees my heart for what it is, understands why I feel a deeply personal need to serve as I do, and would never find fault with me for wanting to help people more than I want to be safe and sound.
Thirdly and finally: I do not serve God or Christ because of a promise of reward. That's nice and all, but even if the situation was somehow reversed, that serving the Lord was punished eternally instead of rewarded...I would still do it. I serve Him because He is God, He is Lord. The reward is a perk. Heaven is a perk. Serving God is what it is all about.
God bless!
ForeverSaved said:Losing rewards in the millennial kingdom is not loss of eternal life.
If your eye is on Christ, then it should not be stimulated by inordinate curiosity to be in the Tribulation for then you would be looking for the Antichrist first who necessarily must precede Christ in the Tribulation. God's desire is not for you to harden your spirit with this expectation.
Let it go and repent.
ForeverSaved said:According to Rev. 3.10, only those Christians who keep the word of His patience will be raptured before the Tribulation.
"Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3.10).
When do we see the rapture? Before the trumpets start in Revelation 8.
"...stood before the throne" (Rev. 7.9).
This is a vision of the raptured ones from which they first commence to enter into 3rd heaven before the trumpets of the Tribulation.
When are the Christians who are "left" (Matt. 24.40-41) to be raptured?
"...at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible..." (1 Cor. 15.52).
Do you see the picture of trumpets from the first rapture to the rapture at the 7th trumpet?
Lord may others see this truth also and stop arguing with each other. There ought to be noone here who will argue with this truth, so before posting please humble yourselves by the grace of God before.
I am telling you God's will for everyone as disclosed in the Word of God.Jebediah said:Uh-huh. You are telling me what God's will for me is? You are warping my reasons for my actions into curiousity? You are defining my beliefs for me?
I answered your thread because I agreed with some of what you were saying and you ask people who agreed to post. I felt compassion with you in Christ. You do not inform my theology, the Bible and the Holy Spirit does. Back off.
No. Not all of a sudden. It is the same position I have held virtually since I was born-again.carminejulie said:so now you are saying there are two raptures.
I was never a pretrib person. And I never said I was.Hmmmmmmm at least you were honest as a pretribber and actually stated this since most won't admit they actually believe taht.
Yes.A question. the letters were first and foremost, written to the 7 churches in Asia. Do you agree? yes or no?
John was showing the 7 churches to represent what the church will go through in these 20 centuries. The Philadephia church, represented by the movement of the Brethren in 1800's, was not raptured, nor was the church in Philadephia over 1900 years ago. Since none were raptured, you know therefore, this is speaking to the whole church to overcome to be received before the throne before the Tribulation. In speaking to each church at the time of John, John was also speaking to all Christians as well. For any local church must have application to others, otherwise Rev. 2 & 3 are meaningless to us.Then whatever happened to the church in philadelphia since in fact, John is writing to them that they would be kept from the hour of trial. Were they raptured?
No. It is only IF they are in the generation at the Tribulation. Since none knew when Christ was to return, they were spoken to as if He could return any time. Therefore, from their perspective they could have been raptured if they kept His patient word. But we know none have been raptured since the Tribulation has not started yet.in your analysis, if kept from the hour of your trial is the rapture, THEY, 2000 years AGo were raptured AND all whom you claim are the philadelphia church were raptured thru the crnturies.....
I don't say it was one way for them. I don't know if I will be raptured at first rapture, just as they did not know, if the Tribulation were to be in their day.Yo ucan't say it was fulfilled in one way for them, they were kept thru other means if you can only claim rapture for you....
NOW, what make syou ever think John's presence before the throne means you are raptured with him?
Yes, John saw a vision.John got called up in Rev 4 just like Moses was called up to the mount of God (sinai). The congregation remained below, only Moses and John got called up. THEY BOTH saw the same thing, the throne room of god. John explains it, Moses recreated it in pattern.
Yes, raptures happen after resurrection at the first trumpet and the 7th trumpet. First rapture only includes martyrs in resurrection.the rapture happens immediately after the resurrection of the dead.
See 1 Thess. 4.15-17, 1 Cor. 15.50-52. These refer to the last trumpet resurrection. First trumpet rapture is seen in Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10. And Matt. 24.40-41 also speaks of being "taken" at first rapture.show me where there are rapture passages that teach otehrwise from Paul's epistles, 9the only epistles taht directly teach a catching up. We are caught up with the dead .... NOW, is there two resurrections of the dead to preceded the two raptures you claim? AND how about those you would claim are to go into a millenium? Do they also receive some special rapture later too?
3 times? We see a first rapture at Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and Matt. 24.40-41. Who can deny this truth? Those accounted worthy shall be received at this time. The rest are "left" to be raised together with those waiting in timeless unawares.Somehow, god saw to it to wait til the very end of time, (ALMOST) and then resurrected all to them rapture those alive. And do this 3 times in quick succession.
Your denial of th resurrection of Christ and our same resurrection is escapism.This is ESCAPISM...
The thief comes like a thief in the night. He does not come with a loud trumpet. He comes to steal the best. The overcomers are received first.the thief comes at Armegeddon, show me how he comes at anypoint before. THE PHRASE I come as a thief appears and is announced right before his coming at armegeddon.
Christians who were not ready to be received at first rapture will need to go through the Tribulation. If I am not ready to be received at first rapture, God will place me through the time of testing.Sorry, you will have to deal with livg thrut he ribulation, like the rest of the christian martyrs did. At least they won't throw you to the liions or boil you in oil or skin you alive, or burn you at the stake, that would be too much for our modern day christians to bare, they would lose their religion if they had to deal with that.....
Not only will there be a rapture after the Tribulation, but also just before the Tribulation begins. There is reason for this already given.bertie said:The rapture,if there is one,will still be taking place after a time of tribulation not yet seen on earth......There will be plenty of opportunity to experience some of the prewrath turbulence that is forcast to occur......
The operative function is still going to be a matter for everyone to deal with whether they go into the endtimes tribulations or not....
It is still a matter of personal lifetime choice today as to whether you take the beasts mark on yourself....
We are presented with the same decision no matter when our own life fits into the whole frame of things....In micro reality,the scenario plays out in each of our lives and it makes no difference if we do live to see the real final unvieling of the prophecy...
Yes it does. It even says so in Matthew 24. See Matt. 24.40-41.GaryVance said:No where in the scriptures does it say that Christians will be taken out of the world before tribulation begins. Check out Matthew 24 for chronology of end times events and discover that the pre-trib rapture is no where to be found.
No. Verse 9 happens before the Tribulation.Matthew 24:1-8 leads us right up to the begining of the tribulation and if Jesus were going to tell us of a pre-trib rapture it would be verse nine.
Your false premise leads to this false conclusion.What do we find in verse nine? No rapture. We find Christians being handed over to persecution. Did Jesus just forget to mention it?
There are at least 12 raptures noted in the Bible.I don't think so. There is only one event described in prophecy that we call "rapture" and there is no mention of multiple raptures.
It is a contrived notion by people who deny all raptures except their own selfish self-serving one, that is not reality.This is a contrived notion by people trying to bend the scriptures to conform to an extra-biblical idea. Please use the same Bible study methods for this subject as you would all others (starting with primary texts to establish the idea and then go to secondary texts to further substantiate that idea).
Rev. 3.10 is that premier text which is undeniable.No primary text even hints at a pre-trib rapture.
You would benefit from loving God and the errors of man in history denying God's love. The denial of key verses that point to first rapture according to readiness is man's flesh not wanting to be ready or even being a tare to deceive brothers and sisters in Christ. You are not going to stick with the plain Bible teaching, that much is clear. You trust extra-Biblical revelators and revelations. How sad for you.You would benefit from a little historical study on the origin of this heresy. It was initiated by extra-biblical revelation. I am going to stick with the plain teaching of the Bible and draw my conclusions from scripture only. I do not trust extra-biblical revelators.
Jesus described two raptures, one at the front of the Tribulation and one at the end. Matt. 24.29 would pertain to the back-end, so would 1 Cor. 15.52, and Rev. 11.15. Don't shut your mind down to Luke 21.36 and other verses regarding the first rapture. It betrays you and is intellectually dishonest.Jesus describes the rapture as coming at the grand conclusion of the tribulation. Verse 29 of Matthew 24 could not make it any plainer. Paul in l Corinthians 15:52 said it would come at the "last trumpet" and Rev. 11:15 reveals the blowing of the seventh and last trumpet and then the "kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ."
1 Thess. 4.13-18 pertain to the rapture at the 7th trumpet, not the first trumpet. The two raptures are not for true believers, since all believers are true. Your misunderstanding of this needing to bear false witness shows you are not in the truth but self. Remember, first rapture is according to readiness, not a forgone conclusion. These verses are interesting because they say those believers who are "alive" and "left" which is reundant since obviously those who are left are alive and those who are alive are left. Therefore, this must mean those who are left (Matt. 24.40-41) were not taken at first rapture. Thank you Jesus!l Thess. 4:13-18 is a primary text also. 17 being the "rapture" description. Some of you think that two raptures happen. The first for the "true" believers and the second for those who come in late to the game. 17 says "..and so we will be with the Lord forever." "We" implies people such as Paul and all other "good" saints. No pre-trib or two rapture idea conveyed here.
It does not say when the rapture will be. Take another look. Let us be humble and not overassume.2 Thess. 2 in its entirety is a primary text for rapture buffs. Please note that Paul plainly teaches that the antichrist will be revealed and there will be a great rebellion before the rapture. This text alone completely eliminates the possibility of a Pre-trib rapture.
Wake up friends! Believe the plain reading of God's Word and be delivered from this bogus end times illusion that has captured your vain imaginations.
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