When does the resurrection of the dead take place?

expos4ever · May 3, 2016

Optimax said:
The "Rapture" is a scriptural teaching.

I think this is highly debatable. First, belief in a rapture of the sort believed in by North American evangelicals is a relatively new idea in the Church - I believe it only arose (no pun intended) about 200 years ago. For almost all of church history, no one believed in a rapture.

I do not believe the Scriptures teach of a rapture event. There are compelling historical and scriptural reasons to be suspicious of the modern notion of the rapture and to take the stuff in texts like 1 Thessalonians as a metaphor.

expos4ever · May 3, 2016

vinsight4u said:
.....meet in the air...

This is a good example of a case where knowledge is needed of the culture and times in which the authors of scripture lived. In that world, the citizens would greet a returning king by coming out from city walls to meet the king in the open air outside the city walls and then would escort the king back into the city.

This "meet in the air" image needs to be understood in the context in which it was written. And in the appropriate cultural context, this image has nothing to do with people ascending into the sky; it is a much more earthbound image.

Again, the modern rapture idea is very new and is not held widely anywhere except in North America (I believe).

vinsight4u · May 3, 2016

tatteredsoul · May 3, 2016

expos4ever said:
I think this is highly debatable. First, belief in a rapture of the sort believed in by North American evangelicals is a relatively new idea in the Church - I believe it only arose (no pun intended) about 200 years ago. For almost all of church history, no one believed in a rapture.

I do not believe the Scriptures teach of a rapture event. There are compelling historical and scriptural reasons to be suspicious of the modern notion of the rapture and to take the stuff in texts like 1 Thessalonians as a metaphor.

At the LAST TRUMP... in the twinkling of an eye - when Christ returns.

The dead will rise first simply because they are already dead. So, they will resurrect first. Those alive will resurrect later.

The rapture was a dream sequence by Margaret McDonald in which she saw a lot of people rise up in the sky/clouds. Ministers of that time were extremely excited to run with the dream, but Margaret repeatedly said she felt the dream was evil. There is no rapture; God doesn't remove us from tribulations, He strengthens us to go through it. The flood. Exodus. Jericho. Daniel and his friends in the furnace. Even Samson - having been beat and blinded was given the strength and faith to endure it, and even take some of his enemies with him.

Being saved from the hour of temptation is about endurance, protection and faith. God isn't in the business of whisking His pepole away in hard times. Besides, there needs to be witnesses... and, there needs to be believers that the enemy makes war with. There will also be saints that fall by the Enemy as per tribulation and testing. There will also need to be people to teach others to come to God in that time. That is four categories of people that must be Godly to do these things, so a rapture of other saints except for those in the four categories is a bit unfair - especially considering we all have the stain of sin of us.

JohnRabbit · May 3, 2016

vinsight4u said:
You don't think we will be gathered at His coming
back from heaven with His saints?

we shall all be changed
at the last trump
meet in the air

This is before the 7th seal is ever opened.
The 6th seal ended the great tribulation and
the trumpets. It is now time for reward and we
get changed at the time of His coming in glory!

yeah, i agree with most of what you have written here.

it's just the methodology specified in the rapture process that i have a problem with.

JohnRabbit · May 3, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
At the LAST TRUMP... in the twinkling of an eye - when Christ returns.

The dead will rise first simply because they are already dead. So, they will resurrect first. Those alive will resurrect later.

The rapture was a dream sequence by Margaret McDonald in which she saw a lot of people rise up in the sky/clouds. Ministers of that time were extremely excited to run with the dream, but Margaret repeatedly said she felt the dream was evil. There is no rapture; God doesn't remove us from tribulations, He strengthens us to go through it. The flood. Exodus. Jericho. Daniel and his friends in the furnace. Even Samson - having been beat and blinded was given the strength and faith to endure it, and even take some of his enemies with him.

Being saved from the hour of temptation is about endurance, protection and faith. God isn't in the business of whisking His pepole away in hard times. Besides, there needs to be witnesses... and, there needs to be believers that the enemy makes war with. There will also be saints that fall by the Enemy as per tribulation and testing. There will also need to be people to teach others to come to God in that time. That is four categories of people that must be Godly to do these things, so a rapture of other saints except for those in the four categories is a bit unfair - especially considering we all have the stain of sin of us.

ViaCrucis · May 3, 2016

The Parousia.

-CryptoLutheran

All4Christ · May 4, 2016

expos4ever said:
I think this is highly debatable. First, belief in a rapture of the sort believed in by North American evangelicals is a relatively new idea in the Church - I believe it only arose (no pun intended) about 200 years ago. For almost all of church history, no one believed in a rapture.

I do not believe the Scriptures teach of a rapture event. There are compelling historical and scriptural reasons to be suspicious of the modern notion of the rapture and to take the stuff in texts like 1 Thessalonians as a metaphor.

The key words here are "of the sort believed by North American evangelicals". The concept of the general resurrection at the end times is very traditional. However, The notion of a rapture in which Christ comes unseen to take believers away secretly, and only later comes back again for everyone else publicly is a new belief that is definitely not traditionally believed by the Christian Church.

Historically and traditionally, the Church believes in a general resurrection of all people at the end times, upon which the final judgment will occur. However, this is not before the tribulation. It is not a traditional belief for Christians to be removed from earth through a great rapture before tribulations occur.

Historically and traditionally, the Church also believes in a first, or “Particular” Judgment, experienced by each individual at the time of his or her death, at which time God will decide where the soul is to spend the time until the Second Coming of Christ - the godly experience a foretaste of heaven and the wicked experience a foretaste of hell.

The modern doctrine of the rapture (as held by many evangelicals and some other Christians) is definitely new. However, the notion of the resurrection of the physical body at the end times with Jesus coming back in glory is very traditional.

JohnRabbit · May 5, 2016

All4Christ said:
The key words here are "of the sort believed by North American evangelicals". The concept of the general resurrection at the end times is very traditional. However, The notion of a rapture in which Christ comes unseen to take believers away secretly, and only later comes back again for everyone else publicly is a new belief that is definitely not traditionally believed by the Christian Church.

Historically and traditionally, the Church believes in a general resurrection of all people at the end times, upon which the final judgment will occur. However, this is not before the tribulation. It is not a traditional belief for Christians to be removed from earth through a great rapture before tribulations occur.

Historically and traditionally, the Church also believes in a first, or “Particular” Judgment, experienced by each individual at the time of his or her death, at which time God will decide where the soul is to spend the time until the Second Coming of Christ - the godly experience a foretaste of heaven and the wicked experience a foretaste of hell.

The modern doctrine of the rapture (as held by many evangelicals and some other Christians) is definitely new. However, the notion of the resurrection of the physical body at the end times with Jesus coming back in glory is very traditional.

you had me up until the point when you said "at which time God will decide where the soul is to spend the time until the Second Coming of Christ"

All4Christ · May 5, 2016

JohnRabbit said:
you had me up until the point when you said "at which time God will decide where the soul is to spend the time until the Second Coming of Christ"

I'm good with agreeing to disagree on that. The biggest thing to remember is that there has to be a physical resurrection of the body for the death and resurrection of Christ to have its full meaning (imho). That said, in contrast to the modern doctrine of the rapture - what I presented is the historical and traditional view, held from the very early church until today.

JohnRabbit · May 5, 2016

All4Christ said:
I'm good with agreeing to disagree on that.

bet it up!

The biggest thing to remember is that there has to be a physical resurrection of the body for the death and resurrection of Christ to have its full meaning (imho).

i just go by what paul says:

1 Corinthians 15:44(NKJV)
44It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body, (i also notice that in context with 1cor 15:38).

That said, in contrast to the modern doctrine of the rapture - what I presented is the historical and traditional view, held from the very early church until today.

thanks for the info!

All4Christ · May 5, 2016

JohnRabbit said:
bet it up!

i just go by what paul says:

1 Corinthians 15:44(NKJV)
44It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

thanks for the info!

Sounds good - I'm happy to exchange ideas in a good natured discussion!

By the way - I agree with the verse you posted. When our bodies are physically raised, it will be a glorified, spiritual body, just as Jesus was raised in a glorified, spiritual body. (To clarify - the body we have will be glorified. The same body Jesus had before He died was glorified.)

JohnRabbit · May 5, 2016

All4Christ said:
Sounds good - I'm happy to exchange ideas in a good natured discussion!

By the way - I agree with the verse you posted. When our bodies are physically raised, it will be a glorified, spiritual body, just as Jesus was raised in a glorified, spiritual body.

All4Christ · May 5, 2016

JohnRabbit said:

Would you be interested in me providing some links to some treatises from the second and third century that explain the early church's beliefs on the physical resurrection? It is packed with scripture. It is interesting to see the theological debates in the early church.

No worries either way...just an offer if you'd like the resources. I'm a bit of a history lover, especially with theology, so I really enjoy the early writings.

mmksparbud · May 5, 2016

expos4ever said:
This is a good example of a case where knowledge is needed of the culture and times in which the authors of scripture lived. In that world, the citizens would greet a returning king by coming out from city walls to meet the king in the open air outside the city walls and then would escort the king back into the city.

This "meet in the air" image needs to be understood in the context in which it was written. And in the appropriate cultural context, this image has nothing to do with people ascending into the sky; it is a much more earthbound image.

Again, the modern rapture idea is very new and is not held widely anywhere except in North America (I believe).

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jason Sanders · May 5, 2016

No man shall know the time or the place, not even the Son- for only th Father knows, and He has hidden from all.

Aka- don't worry about it, it happens when it happens, focus your life and efforts on things other than the absolutely vexing topic if the end times. Not because its complicated (it isn't) but because man makes it far more invoked than it needs to be. He is coming "soon". That's all we need to know.

JohnRabbit · May 5, 2016

All4Christ said:
Would you be interested in me providing some links to some treatises from the second and third century that explain the early church's beliefs on the physical resurrection? It is packed with scripture. It is interesting to see the theological debates in the early church.

No worries either way...just an offer if you'd like the resources. I'm a bit of a history lover, especially with theology, so I really enjoy the early writings.

i'd welcome it.

Isaacsname · May 5, 2016

When the great falling away happens

When Jesus is revealed { the Man of Sin } and religious people leave their churches, temples, mosques and synagogues in droves because they don't like what they see and hear from the Son of Man

This person will deeply appeal to those who were once " dead in Christ " as it is commonly referred to

Rawtheran · May 5, 2016

JohnRabbit said:
i've already posted a thread on the resurrection and now i think another element of the resurrection needs to be discussed.

when does the resurrection of the just and unjust take place?

The real answer? No one knows all that we do know is that there will be some kind of resurrection, and a final judgment for both believers and non believers. What is also cool is that someday the people who accepted Jesus will get glorified bodies. I know that a lot of believers like to bring up the rapture, but this is actually a new teaching that surfaced in the 1900's and was never taught by the early church although I wouldn't say that the rapture is unbiblical just that it isn't really fully understood.

Geralt · May 6, 2016

no resurrection for the damned.

When does the resurrection of the dead take place?

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