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They did not see the future. What happened happened in real time. Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ.
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one happens while one is asleep and the other happens while one is awake... anywho the vision here was a vision of the future given to those disciples...from God one and the same
ok, let's just take it slowly.Sorry guys, I find your posts too much work to decode. No hard feelings.
Sorry guys, I find your posts too much work to decode. No hard feelings.
yeah, but don't you see how this type of thinking would go against heb 11:39-40!So I am of the opinion that the dead all slept until Christ. At Christ's resurrection, the faithful were raised with him. Then following his ascension, each is judged as they pass away.
Hmmm, not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I don't see Hebrews as contradicting what I said, but rather following it. All those who were before Christ did not receive the promise of resurrection because God didn't want them made perfect without us. So they slept until Christ and rose with him. "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." (Isaiah 26:19)yeah, but don't you see how this type of thinking would go against heb 11:39-40!
not being sarcastic, just going by what the bible says!Hmmm, not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I don't see Hebrews as contradicting what I said, but rather following it. All those who were before Christ did not receive the promise of resurrection because God didn't want them made perfect without us. So they slept until Christ and rose with him. "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." (Isaiah 26:19)
They did not see the future. What happened happened in real time. Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ.
not being sarcastic, just going by what the bible says!
Hebrews 11:39-40(KJV)
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
you said "So they slept until Christ and rose with him".
i find no scriptural support for that statement!
and then you say it "All those who were before Christ did not receive the promise of resurrection because God didn't want them made perfect without us"!
but look at what you say next "So they slept until Christ and rose with him", which would mean that they rose with Christ and was made perfect but we weren't there because we weren't even born yet!
so that would mean that they were made perfect "without" us and would go against the verse!
the verse clearly states that we will be made perfect at the same time which is in line with jn 5:28-29, 1thess 4:15-16, and rev 20:4-6!
and second... spirit beings do not have to eat... they do not get tired... they do not alot of things that we physical humans being have to do to continue to live...so nooooooooo our bodies are not remotely the same...we are physical they are spiritual
Well then you flat out just ignore what the bible says when it says that Christ is the firstborn from the dead...
also ignore heb 11 that moses along with the others had not received the promise..
can't be so and here's why!They did not see the future. What happened happened in real time. Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ.
I understand where you're coming from. But as Paul also points out, the dead in Christ rise first, and there will be those of us who remain. Then, at the end of all things, as some interpret the Revelation, there is the great day of judgement, and there are still dead to be delivered up for judgement. And of course, there are those who never sleep at all, but are simply transformed.not being sarcastic, just going by what the bible says!
Hebrews 11:39-40(KJV)
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
you said "So they slept until Christ and rose with him".
i find no scriptural support for that statement!
and then you say it "All those who were before Christ did not receive the promise of resurrection because God didn't want them made perfect without us"!
but look at what you say next "So they slept until Christ and rose with him", which would mean that they rose with Christ and was made perfect but we weren't there because we weren't even born yet!
so that would mean that they were made perfect "without" us and would go against the verse!
the verse clearly states that we will be made perfect at the same time which is in line with jn 5:28-29, 1thess 4:15-16, and rev 20:4-6!
can't be so and here's why!
back in matt 16 Jesus said this:
Matthew 16:27-28(KJV)
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
27Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
see that which i bolded?
now compare to this:
John 7:37-39(NKJV)
37On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
39But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
the transfiguration recorded in matt, mark, and luke occurred before the event described in jn 7:37-39!
so if Jesus was not yet glorified then the event had to be a vision of things to come (remember that He was shown in glory during the transfiguration, matt 17:2)!
yes, i agree.I understand where you're coming from. But as Paul also points out, the dead in Christ rise first, and there will be those of us who remain.
yes, but we have to keep heb 9:27 in mind and compare that to:Then, at the end of all things, as some interpret the Revelation, there is the great day of judgement, and there are still dead to be delivered up for judgement. And of course, there are those who never sleep at all, but are simply transformed.
an event that starts at Christ's return and will ultimately be fulfilled after the millennium.So there is no singular and definitive event.
what you wrote here might would fly but for jn 5:28-29 for starters, because it supports heb 11:39-40!As for your take on Hebrews, I honestly think you are just reading it differently than I am. By analogy, I'm seeing the concept that a great new movie is coming out. And although they are privy to previews, they aren't being allowed to see the whole movie until it's available for everyone to see. You're take on it, by the same analogy, is that they aren't allowed to see the movie until we are all sitting in the theater at the same time and watch the debut as one big audience. I just disagree with that.
yeah, i read the verse, only thing is that it's the author referring to himself and not to Christ, which makes that verse in line with jn 5:28-29!The scriptural support for the dead prior to Christ rising with him was given in my last post.
i have to go along with scripture on this one because we know when Christ was glorified and the timeline is simply indisputable proof! (cannot overlook jn 7:37-39)!Verse 31 proves this wasn't a vision of the future because Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ about his own death.
i have to go along with scripture on this one because we know when Christ was glorified and the timeline is simply indisputable proof! (cannot overlook jn 7:37-39)!
You're right. I didn't notice that before, but he is saying that the dead would rise along with himself.yeah, i read the verse, only thing is that it's the author referring to himself and not to Christ, which makes that verse in line with jn 5:28-29!
None of this is relevant to the fact Moses and Elijah visited Christ and it was witnessed by some disciples:
Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Verse 31 proves this wasn't a vision of the future because Moses and Elijah came to speak to Christ about his own death.
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