When does Marian veneration and devotion go too far? When is the line crossed?

Sword of the Lord · Jan 14, 2014

But before I go, this is why I didn't really care to ask my MIL about the cross. Last night I asked her if she heard about the Ariel Sharon death prophecy. She said, "See, we Catholics don't believe he will return until 3,000 and something." I said the Catholic Church doesn't teach any such thing. They place no date on the return. She argued with me and ended with, "Whatever."

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
It is clutter if the passages ought to be well known - and the passages I alluded to were well known - otherwise a full quote is advisable unless it is too long to expect my interlocutor to read. But fear not, your pity is not needed. Keep up the good work of being condescending in your posts. See how it works for you.

I'm not too sure that the passage I posted is all that well known, like, for instance Romans 3:23 .. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

If you believe I was patronizing, I'm sorry but it was not my intention. I do, however, stand by my conviction that if you had posted the verses from Second Peter you would be able to see how it refutes your previous post.

Kristos · Jan 14, 2014

Mike to Michael said:
Cool thread guys. I'm out.

(and this is why we can't have anything nice at CF)

Did you really think that your question would lead to a civil discussion?

When does veneration cross the line? Quite simply, when it becomes worship. Unfortunately, many people have gone the other way, reduce worship to veneration and so have trouble recognizing the difference.

PS- I would never write "Mary save me" on a cross, but I would be willing to hear someone out who did...

Albion · Jan 14, 2014

Kristos said:
When does veneration cross the line? Quite simply, when it becomes worship.

That's what I would have said.

And this looks like one such example.

sonshine234 · Jan 14, 2014

marie alice said:
Please point out to me the scriptural evidence that the apostles prayed to Mary. I'll wait.

Can you give proof that the Bible is to be used alone

Albion · Jan 14, 2014

sonshine234 said:
Can you give proof that the Bible is to be used alone

I'm sure she'll take any evidence you have.

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

sonshine234 said:
Can you give proof that the Bible is to be used alone

Since the bible is the only source that contains the infallible word of God, why would I use anything else? Are you suggesting that there is another source besides scripture that contains His inerrant word?

OrthodoxyUSA · Jan 14, 2014

marie alice said:
Since the bible is the only source that contains the infallible word of God, why would I use anything else? Are you suggesting that there is another source besides scripture that contains His inerrant word?

Would you know what the Psalms are for and how to use them, since they are in the middle of our bibles?

IOW ~ Do you know how to pray as the Apostles did?

1Cr 14:16

Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Albion · Jan 14, 2014

marie alice said:
Since the bible is the only source that contains the infallible word of God, why would I use anything else?

The question that never gets answered.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jan 14, 2014

Not everything that a Christian would want to know about Christianity is in the bible.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Gnarwhal · Jan 14, 2014

marie alice said:
Since the bible is the only source that contains the infallible word of God, why would I use anything else? Are you suggesting that there is another source besides scripture that contains His inerrant word?

You don't get it. "Scripture alone" cannot be proven by using scripture alone to validate that claim. You have to reach outside of scripture to reformation-era theology to affirm that teaching. So the concept of scripture alone defeats itself.

Albion · Jan 14, 2014

Cogent said:
You don't get it. "Scripture alone" cannot be proven by using scripture alone to validate that claim.

I disagree about that, but in any case, it isn't the point.

Every Christian Church considers the Bible to be revelation, so what possible argument can there be for adding something else? How can anything else be better than the best? And where does anyone come by the information needed to decide WHAT additions to the word of God might be made?

OrthodoxyUSA · Jan 14, 2014

Having the text is only the beginning. They were written to be used in services.

If we're not using them in Apostolic services then we are missing a great deal of understanding.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

Originally Posted by marie alice
Since the bible is the only source that contains the infallible word of God, why would I use anything else? Are you suggesting that there is another source besides scripture that contains His inerrant word?

OrthodoxyUSA said:
Would you know what the Psalms are for and how to use them, since they are in the middle of our bibles?

IOW ~ Do you know how to pray as the Apostles did?

How does that answer the question I asked of sonshine234?

OrthodoxyUSA · Jan 14, 2014

marie alice said:
Originally Posted by marie alice
Since the bible is the only source that contains the infallible word of God, why would I use anything else? Are you suggesting that there is another source besides scripture that contains His inerrant word?

How does that answer the question I asked of sonshine234?

I posed questions... I wasn't answering yours.

There is much to know that we cannot glean from scripture. How to use them being the primary thing.

Just as the Gospels are inerrant, so is the service that they belong to.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jan 14, 2014

Liturgy of the Hours - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The early Christians continued the Jewish practice of reciting prayers at certain hours of the day or night. In the Psalms are found expressions like "in the morning I offer you my prayer"; "At midnight I will rise and thank you" ; "Evening, morning and at noon I will cry and lament"; "Seven times a day I praise you". The Apostles observed the Jewish custom of praying at the third, sixth and ninth hour and at midnight (Acts 10:3, 9; 16:25; etc.).

The Christian prayer of that time consisted of almost the same elements as the Jewish: recital or chanting of psalms, reading of the Old Testament, to which were soon added readings of the Gospels, Acts, and epistles, and canticles. [6] Other elements were added later in the course of the centuries.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

Cogent said:
You don't get it. "Scripture alone" cannot be proven by using scripture alone to validate that claim. You have to reach outside of scripture to reformation-era theology to affirm that teaching. So the concept of scripture alone defeats itself.

Are you suggesting that there is another source besides scripture that contains the infallible, inerrant word of Almighty God?

If youre gonna talk the talk, you better be prepared to walk the walk.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jan 14, 2014

marie alice said:
Are you suggesting that there is another source besides scripture that contains the infallible, inerrant word of Almighty God?

If you’re gonna talk the talk, you better be prepared to walk the walk.

If you're going to stick with the personal attacks I'm going to start reporting it. Address the post and not the poster. RULES.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

Albion said:
I disagree about that, but in any case, it isn't the point.

Every Christian Church considers the Bible to be revelation, so what possible argument can there be for adding something else? How can anything else be better than the best? And where does anyone come by the information needed to decide WHAT additions to the word of God might be made?

And all of God's children shout Amen, Albion.

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

OrthodoxyUSA said:
If you're going to stick with the personal attacks I'm going to start reporting it. Address the post and not the poster. RULES.

I am not going to walk on egg shells around here. Report me if you want. I'm not attacking anyone. I merely stated that those who make statements should be able to back them up.

When does Marian veneration and devotion go too far? When is the line crossed?

In need of a physician.

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