When does Marian veneration and devotion go too far? When is the line crossed?

[Sword of the Lord]

Title

Earlier today I happened to notice that my very devoutly Catholic mother-in-law has a cross hanging on her wall. But here's the thing. It big letters it reads "Mary" and in smaller letters under that it says "Save Us". Now I know there are some prayers to Mary that are troubling for some Protestants, but that's typically because they aren't read in proper context. But to me, this is really, really troubling, and I fail to understand how this is ok in any way.

 

[Giantbear]

Title

Earlier today I happened to notice that my very devoutly Catholic mother-in-law has a cross hanging on her wall. But here's the thing. It big letters it reads "Mary" and in smaller letters under that it says "Save Us". Now I know there are some prayers to Mary that are troubling for some Protestants, but that's typically because they aren't read in proper context. But to me, this is really, really troubling, and I fail to understand how this is ok in any way.

Matthew 10:37
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Faith is solely a spiritual marital relationship or better call it a union with The Lord and when we bring others into this union we are allowing encroachment to happen without us knowing it at times and this may be unpleasant to The Lord.

A spiritual wife of Christ cannot say save me to another husband (person) whilst prophesying to be faithfully married to her husband. In this situation is she saying that her husband is incapable of saving her and she needs others to save her.

Jesus said you in me and I in you in union as a spiritual marriage undefiled with the encroachment of others.

Others are others, Mary included as the others.

Tell her Mary can't save you, she needs to directly ask her spiritual husband that she was baptised in to save her, for he alone has the key to heaven and hell and is the only one capable of saving her. Ask him directly without bringing others into your relationship with him.

Jesus said ask and it shall be given and knock it shall be answered.

Are you asking your husband or are you asking others.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[Albion]

Title

Earlier today I happened to notice that my very devoutly Catholic mother-in-law has a cross hanging on her wall. But here's the thing. It big letters it reads "Mary" and in smaller letters under that it says "Save Us". Now I know there are some prayers to Mary that are troubling for some Protestants, but that's typically because they aren't read in proper context. But to me, this is really, really troubling, and I fail to understand how this is ok in any way.

The answer that many Catholic posters here on CF have given before is that what you describe cannot, does not, never ever happens.

Be prepared.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Can we say with absolute certainty though that both what your mother-in-law believes and whatever the creator of that decorative cross believes are actually representative of what the Catholic Church professes as dogma?

I mean, when I used to go to Family Christian Bookstore I'd see a lot of stupid angel memorabilia (postcards, miniature statues, etc) that may give people an inaccurate impression of what Christians believe about angels. Doesn't make any of it true, and really only represents the personal heterodox beliefs of the creators of those items and the patrons who buy them.

See where I'm going with that?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Wow... how misunderstood this prayer rule is.

What you are seeing is in fact very old. The veneration of St. Mary always comes toward the end of daily prayer rules. See 'the hours'.

If I were to hang a billboard on the highway with one line from a popular song... "All shook up"... most of us would begin recalling the same song in our heads even if we didn't like the song.

Orthodox Christians prayers have a musical quality called 'tones' which is very much lost to western Christianity.

I knew exactly what it was just by your description.

The original saying would be "Most Holy 'Theotokos' (bearer of God) save us". This does not mean salvation in the western sense of the word. It's more like 'throw me a rope' and pray for me to Christ God along with my prayers. Just like we would ask others to pray for us.

Remember that to Orthodox Christians, Mary is with Christ already. That Christian fact is lost to western Christianity as well.

In Orthodox Christianity Mary is always seen 'Presenting' Christ. She is not a God, she's a Saint, and the first Christian.

(St. Luke 'wrote' the first Christian Icon in this style. Christ was never depicted as an adult until 525ad.)

Why do we ask for her prayers? Because the Apostles did so, they held her very highly during her life and after her death continued to ask for her prayers as she had ascended to heaven before them.

So ultimately we see an Eastern idea set in western wording that refers to a prayer that would be said at the foot of the cross. The simple phrase is a reminder to pray our daily prayers.

Western adaptations of Eastern Christianity look funny to western eyes. We could come away thinking that somebody is worshiping Mary!

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Optimax]

What it says is much louder than the song and dance that tries to deny what it says.

 

[PaladinValer]

1. Wrong forum.
2. Asking that question here will undoubtedly lead to nothing more than willingly ignorance or non-desire to actually learn.
3. Ask your mother-in-law, then ask a priest in her church if you want a better source of an answer. If you wish to ask here, ask in either OBOB or the Hagiography subforum.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Title

Earlier today I happened to notice that my very devoutly Catholic mother-in-law has a cross hanging on her wall. But here's the thing. It big letters it reads "Mary" and in smaller letters under that it says "Save Us". Now I know there are some prayers to Mary that are troubling for some Protestants, but that's typically because they aren't read in proper context. But to me, this is really, really troubling, and I fail to understand how this is ok in any way.

Why not ask your mother in law what it means to her?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Theotokion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Stavrotheotokion [literally 'the bearer of God' at the cross] is a hymn to the Theotokos that also refers to the Crucifixion of Christ. The correlation between the Theotokos and the Cross is natural because of the Virgin Mary's standing by the Cross throughout the Passion. Stavrotheotokia occurs most commonly on Wednesdays and Fridays, days which are dedicated to the commemoration of the Cross.

Insert by me.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Optimax]

I doubt that Mary was still a virgin when Jesus was crucified.

She had other children than Jesus.

Matt 13:55-56

55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters , are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
KJV

 

[MoreCoffee]

I doubt that Mary was still a virgin when Jesus was crucified.

One of the great assets of the Christian faith is that even when the subject of doubts by those who doubt it remains true.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The answer that many Catholic posters here on CF have given before is that what you describe cannot, does not, never ever happens.

Be prepared.

Who says it never, ever happens? Of course it does! For you to say that "many Catholic posters here" believe so is ridiculous.

The real questions are "Does the Church teach this, or condone this?" and, in the words of Pope Francis on a different topic, "Who are we to judge?"

To the OP, did you ask her about it?

Secondly, if someone is in danger and shouts out "Save me", but I don't have the capacity to do anything, so I go get someone who can, who's responsible for saving the person? The answer is "both". Me, for getting appropriate help, and the one who saved the person. So "Mary save us" could be a prayer for Mary's intercession.

Lastly, I'm sure there are Catholics who overdo their devotion to Mary. Absolutely positive. This is not at the behest of the Church. It's nowhere to be found in Church teaching.

*Now sit back and wait for all the Protestants to give examples that they believe show that the Church does teach that Mary can save us...*

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Optimax

I doubt that Mary was still a virgin when Jesus was crucified.
​

One of the great assets of the Christian faith is that even when the subject of doubts by those who doubt it remains true.

HUH?

Luk 24:38
And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?"

 

[mkgal1]

I doubt that Mary was still a virgin when Jesus was crucified.

She had other children than Jesus.

Matt 13:55-56

55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters , are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
KJV

For your consideration:

There are several questions based on Scripture that are often raised by those skeptical about the doctrine of ever-virginity. The first of these involves the passages which state explicitly that the Lord had "brothers." There are nine such passages: Matthew 12:46-47 and 13:55-56; Mark 3:31-32 and 6:3; Luke 8:19-20; John 2:12 and 7:3-5; Acts 1:14; and 1-Corinthians 9:5. The Greek word used in all these passages and generally translated "brother" is adelphos.

The Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used by the Apostles (abbreviated LXX) includes specific words for "cousin," notably adelphinos and anepsios, but they are rarely used. The less specific word adelphos, which can mean "brother," "cousin," "kinsman," "fellow believer," or "fellow countryman," is used consistently throughout the LXX, even when cousin or kinsman is clearly the relation described (such as in Genesis 14:14, 16; 29:12; Leviticus 25:49; Jeremiah 32:8, 9, 12; Tobit 7:2; etc.). Lot, for instance, who was the nephew of Abraham (cf. Genesis 11:27-31), is called his brother in Genesis 13:8 and 11:14-16. The point is that the commonly used Greek word for a male relative, adelphos, can be translated "cousin" or "brother" if no specific family relation is indicated.

Is there anywhere a clear statement in the Scriptures establishing Jesus brothers as literally the children of Mary? In fact, there is not. Nowhere is Mary explicitly stated to be the mother of Jesus' brothers. The formula for speaking of the Lord's family is "His mother and His brothers." In Mark the possessive, anavtou"of Him," is inserted before both "His mother" and "His brothers," making a clear distinction. In Acts 1:14, the separation is more pronounced: "Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brothers." Some manuscripts use the conjunctive syn "along with, in company with," so that the text reads "Mary the mother of Jesus, along with His brothers." In any case, Mary is never identified as the mother of Jesus' brothers (nor they as her children), but only as the Mother of Jesus.

Also, consider the moving passage from St. John's Gospel in which our Lord commits His Mother into the care of St. John as He dies on the Cross. Why would He do so if she had other children to look after her? Jewish custom dictated that the care of a mother would fall to the second born if the firstborn died, and if the widow had no other child she would be left to take care of herself. Since she is without other children, her Son gives her into the care of the beloved disciple. ~The Ever-Virginity of the Mother of God — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[Optimax]

One of the great assets of the Christian faith is that even when the subject of doubts by those who doubt it remains true.

You convienetly left out part of what I posted.

It is not a doubt.

She had other children than Jesus.

Jesus had brothers and at least two sisters.

Matt 13:55-56
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters , are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? KJV

 

[Optimax]

For your consideration:

NT:80

NT:80 adelfos, adelfou, ho

(from the a copulative and delfus, from the same womb;

compare agastoor) (from Homer down);

1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matt 1:2; 4:18, and often.
That "the brethren of Jesus," Matt 12:46,47 (but WH only in their mrg.); 13:55 f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19 f; John 2:12; 7:3; Acts 1:14; Gal 1:19; 1 Cor 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels (compare Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N.T., i. 362 f)), nor cousins, the children of Alphaeus or Cleophas (i. e., Clopas) and Mary, a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine (compare Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.)), according to that use of language by which adelfos like the Hebrew 'aach denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Gen 14:16; 1 Sam 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chron 23:2, etc.), but his own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matt 1:25 (only in R, G); Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of huion proototokon, the expression huion monogenee would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, compare John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles.
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

 

[Thekla]

NT:80

NT:80 adelfos, adelfou, ho

(from the a copulative and delfus, from the same womb;

compare agastoor) (from Homer down);

1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matt 1:2; 4:18, and often.
That "the brethren of Jesus," Matt 12:46,47 (but WH only in their mrg.); 13:55 f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19 f; John 2:12; 7:3; Acts 1:14; Gal 1:19; 1 Cor 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels (compare Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N.T., i. 362 f)), nor cousins, the children of Alphaeus or Cleophas (i. e., Clopas) and Mary, a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine (compare Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.)), according to that use of language by which adelfos like the Hebrew 'aach denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Gen 14:16; 1 Sam 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chron 23:2, etc.), but his own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matt 1:25 (only in R, G); Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of huion proototokon, the expression huion monogenee would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, compare John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles.
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Thayer might have researched his bias, the LXX, and the Greek language a bit more thoroughly; at least his entry supports himeself

 

[Optimax]

Thayer might have researched his bias, the LXX, and the Greek language a bit more thoroughly; at least his entry supports himeself

NT:80

NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-; from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:


KJV - brother.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

[mkgal1]

I think a lot is missed by the perception that to honor and venerate Mary is to get dangerously close to idolizing her---so people go to the whole other extreme of not exploring the topic at all.

There is so much depth to Mary's role in our salvation. IMO......in order to not violate humanity's free will.....a human had to participate with God of her own choice (as Mary did). I just saw this image for the first time the other day:

Na Zdrowie! The Kloska Family Blog: Mary Comforts Eve

 

[Thekla]

NT:80

NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-; from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:


KJV - brother.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Check Leviticus - the term there also refers to those who are of the same household. Mark uses the term adelphos for Herod and Phillip (stepbrothers, born of 'different wombs').

Household and relationship is reckoned through a common male - not female. If you know of any use of adelphos/i in the Scriptures - OT and/or NT where this is not the case, please post it (as I have yet to find any).

In the Scriptures, and Greek usage of the time, the actual relationship is not known through the general term "adelphos", but through additional description. (See Plato, as well as OT usage, for example.)

The use of adelphos (which covers at least ten different relationships) is not evidence for other children of Mary.