When does God stop loving you?

[nt11]

Alright, I understand your point, and I will look into "The Great Divorce," but honestly, the concept still doesn't ring true in my head. Let me explain. For exapmle, what about those who kill unjustly in the name of God? Islamic terrorists, for instance. They have been raised, and to a large extent, brainwashed, from a young age to believe that the only way to enter heaven is to spread Jihad until the Islamic empire spreads throughout the world. They TRULY believe what they do is right, that they are pleasing God by killing infidels, due to their brainwashing. They WANT to go to heaven, and in their minds are submitting to God's will by following their scriptures, which explicitly state that it is their duty to kill infidels who will not convert. Every action they take in life is in an effort to please God. According to your definition of salvation, they will go to heaven. Am I wrong?

 

[savedandhappy1]

Originally Posted by nt11

I've pondered over this question a lot. God initially loves you unconditionally, right? So when does God say to a creation that he loves unconditionally, "I no longer love you because of what you've done," and send you to hell? At what point does God abandon you?

Because if hell exists, this must happen at some point.


Who do you know that would choose hell over heaven? That would choose eternal suffering over eternal paradise?​

Moved this over here from P & E after reading that you wanted replies here.
​

God never stops loving us, but just like the prodigal son who choose to leave his fathers house and go do his own thing, people choose to turn their backs on the Lord.

You ask who would choose hell over heaven, and sadly I say there are alot who choose that very thing because they want to do what they want when they want to. They either say there is no God, or I'm not giving up my fun now I will do it later, as if they are promised tomorrow, which none of us are.

You seem to be saying that if God really loved us He would force us to do what we don't want to do. That even though we won't admit that we sin, and won't ask for forgiveness..................well that He should ignore all that and say I don't care what you want you will come up here and live with me. God can't be in the presence of sin, and even had to turn away from His own son when all our sins were put on Him, but yet you think He would allow/force those covered with unrepented sin to heaven?

This really makes sense to you?

I know that some people believe that all will go to heaven, but some will have to spend alittle time in hell to burn off the bad edges, which then I bet would make some people ask how that is fair. Why do I have to repent and strive to live like Christ when Joe over here denies God and lives an evil, sinful life? Boy, thats not fair at all.........................

If God would have wanted robots, that had no choice but to love and worship Him, then I bet He would have created that. We see that He wanted something that would willfully love and worship Him, so He created humans and gave them the choice. They then choose not to worship Him, while trying to turn His love into hate by saying He can't love us if He lets us choose to go to hell............He sent the payment for our sin, and all we have to do is accept the payment.

It amazes me more and more each day, how we have people creating God into what they want God to be....................................enough said.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Alright, I understand your point, and I will look into "The Great Divorce," but honestly, the concept still doesn't ring true in my head. Let me explain. For exapmle, what about those who kill unjustly in the name of God? Islamic terrorists, for instance. They have been raised, and to a large extent, brainwashed, from a young age to believe that the only way to enter heaven is to spread Jihad until the Islamic empire spreads throughout the world. They TRULY believe what they do is right, that they are pleasing God by killing infidels, due to their brainwashing. They WANT to go to heaven, and in their minds are submitting to God's will by following their scriptures, which explicitly state that it is their duty to kill infidels who will not convert. Every action they take in life is in an effort to please God. According to your definition of salvation, they will go to heaven. Am I wrong?

You don't believe that God is stronger then any brainwashing done by man and the great deceiver?

Will read more back post, because I'm not sure I am understanding what you are saying here.

 

[dies-l]

Alright, I understand your point, and I will look into "The Great Divorce," but honestly, the concept still doesn't ring true in my head. Let me explain. For exapmle, what about those who kill unjustly in the name of God? Islamic terrorists, for instance. They have been raised, and to a large extent, brainwashed, from a young age to believe that the only way to enter heaven is to spread Jihad until the Islamic empire spreads throughout the world. They TRULY believe what they do is right, that they are pleasing God by killing infidels, due to their brainwashing. They WANT to go to heaven, and in their minds are submitting to God's will by following their scriptures, which explicitly state that it is their duty to kill infidels who will not convert. Every action they take in life is in an effort to please God. According to your definition of salvation, they will go to heaven. Am I wrong?

It's a good question. That kind of brainwashing, I believe, works because it panders to an element of pride in the human heart. It is the element that wants to be believe that, because I belong to such and such group, I am better than such and such other group. I would argue that that that level of submission to radical Islam is not an attempt to submit to God, but is rather an outright rejection of the true God and replacement with a god that meets the needs of the individual's desire to belong and be better than the other. I believe that God reveals himself to everyone through His creation, through His Word, through His people, and even sometimes in supernatural ways. While I do believe that it is possible for a sincere seeker to come to erroneous conclusions about God, I do not believe that such a person is going to find themselves accepting a notion of God that is so thoroughly opposite the true God. To some extent. this is just my opinion, but I also believe that it is consistent with Scripture.

In short, a person who submits to a God of hate is not a person with a willingness to submit to the true God, who is love.

 

[nt11]

To Dies3l: So because of their brainwashing, because of their upbringing and the environment they were born into, they are doomed to hell? Let me pose a question to you. Let's say there were two individuals. A middle class American man and an Islamic terrorist. The middle class American man was born into an environment in which his parents taught him solid morals, and he committed no serious sins throughout his life and accepted Christ as his savior. Then he died. The Islamic terrorist, on the other hand, was born into an environment that emphasized hate and religious murder. Consequently, throughout his life, he killed several infidels, and was totally devoted to the Muslim God. Then he died. Well here's the twist. Let's go back in time. Say God switched the two mens' souls at birth, whether purposefully or by chance. The American man's soul was born into the terrorist's body, and the terrorist's soul was born into the rich man's body. The terrorist had the exact same upbringing as the American man, and thus behaved exactly the same as the American man: he was a moral man, and accepted Jesus as his savior. The American man had the exact same upbringing as the terrorist, and behaved exactly the same as the terrorist: he killed multiple people in the name of the Muslim God. Now go back to the original situation. How does the American man behaving in a moral manner make him any better than the terrorist? When he was switched at birth, he behaved in the same immoral manner, because he had the exact same upbringing. How can either of them be responsible for being born into a situation over which they have no control? How could God send the terrorist to hell, when if he were placed in the opposite situation, he would ascend to heaven? If so, it would be damnation by chance, which I simply can't believe in.

Edit: This situation doesn't fully address your post, sorry. Subject is better addressed after your post at 8:01 PM, March 14.

 

[alphonsus12]

To Dies3l: So because of their brainwashing, because of their upbringing and the environment they were born into, they are doomed to hell? Let me pose a question to you. Let's say there were two individuals. A middle class American man and an Islamic terrorist. The middle class American man was born into an environment in which his parents taught him solid morals, and he committed no serious sins throughout his life and accepted Christ as his savior. Then he died. The Islamic terrorist, on the other hand, was born into an environment that emphasized hate and religious murder. Consequently, throughout his life, he killed several infidels, and was totally devoted to the Muslim God. Then he died. Well here's the twist. Let's go back in time. Say God switched the two mens' souls at birth, whether purposefully or by chance. The American man's soul was born into the terrorist's body, and the terrorist's soul was born into the rich man's body. The terrorist had the exact same upbringing as the American man, and thus behaved exactly the same as the American man: he was a moral man, and accepted Jesus as his savior. The American man had the exact same upbringing as the terrorist, and behaved exactly the same as the terrorist: he killed multiple people in the name of the Muslim God. Now go back to the original situation. How does the American man behaving in a moral manner make him any better than the terrorist? When he was switched at birth, he behaved in the same immoral manner, because he had the exact same upbringing. How can either of them be responsible for being born into a situation over which they have no control? How could God send the terrorist to hell, when if he were placed in the opposite situation, he would ascend to heaven? If so, it would be damnation by chance, which I simply can't believe in.

Two things:
1.) Your understanding of Islam is at best vastly incomplete and simplistic. In Muslim Scriptures (the Koran/ Qu'ran) jihad (which in Arabic means "struggle") refers to the internal struggle of believers to rid themselves of sin, and is considered the greater jihad. Lesser jihad refers to defending the Muslim faith from an outside force, which may not even manifest itself through violence. Nowhere in the Koran are Muslims compelled to kill infidels. Wikipedia is the easy way to learn about things, not the mainstream media.
2.) I am not sure what your point is.

 

[nt11]

From the Book of Surah, if the Qu'ran:

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

There are several interpretations of the Qu'ran, and this is one that Islamic extremists (emphasis on "extremists") use to justify killing non-Muslims. It does not matter of you think it's the "wrong" interpretation, this is an example of AN interpretation that Islamic extremists might use to brainwash their children into committing acts of violence. To those people, this interpretion is THE interpretation. It is the Word of God. By no stretch of the imagination am I stating that ALL Muslims believe in this interpretation. The vast majority do not. But let's go back to my main point. There ARE people in the world who are taught nothing but this interpretation of Islam. These people are still children of God. Knowing this, how could God justly condemn these people to hell, knowing that if the most righteous Christian were born into this situation, they would act exactly the same, because they would have the exact same upbringing? Is it eternal punishment by chance? If so, how is that just?

 

[savedandhappy1]

I have read many accounts of the people of Iraq coming to the Lord, because He came to them in a dream or vision. The same is true about other people in other countries. God got there long before man came to share the word, and teach them of a man name Jesus.

Just because I am not there or anyone else doesn't mean that God doesn't show them His son Jesus, and explain to them their need for Him and His salvation.

Just because we don't know that He has went to all those terriost doesn't mean He didn't call them to Himself, and that He didn't show them the road to salvation, now do we?

Just because those people choose to make their own God and worship Him doesn't mean that the true God hasn't showed them the truth. They choose their path and unless you can show that God didn't make Himself known to them, well.....................................

 

[dies-l]

To Dies3l: So because of their brainwashing, because of their upbringing and the environment they were born into, they are doomed to hell? Let me pose a question to you. Let's say there were two individuals. A middle class American man and an Islamic terrorist. The middle class American man was born into an environment in which his parents taught him solid morals, and he committed no serious sins throughout his life and accepted Christ as his savior. Then he died. The Islamic terrorist, on the other hand, was born into an environment that emphasized hate and religious murder. Consequently, throughout his life, he killed several infidels, and was totally devoted to the Muslim God. Then he died. Well here's the twist. Let's go back in time. Say God switched the two mens' souls at birth, whether purposefully or by chance. The American man's soul was born into the terrorist's body, and the terrorist's soul was born into the rich man's body. The terrorist had the exact same upbringing as the American man, and thus behaved exactly the same as the American man: he was a moral man, and accepted Jesus as his savior. The American man had the exact same upbringing as the terrorist, and behaved exactly the same as the terrorist: he killed multiple people in the name of the Muslim God. Now go back to the original situation. How does the American man behaving in a moral manner make him any better than the terrorist? When he was switched at birth, he behaved in the same immoral manner, because he had the exact same upbringing. How can either of them be responsible for being born into a situation over which they have no control? How could God send the terrorist to hell, when if he were placed in the opposite situation, he would ascend to heaven? If so, it would be damnation by chance, which I simply can't believe in.

I am not quite sure what your hypothetical has to do with anything. The fact is that there are many people who are raised in Islamist nations who do not become terrorists; there are some who pursue the true God with all of their heart, soul, and mind; and even some, who are formally introduced to the Christian faith, because they spend their whole lives seeking it out. In American and other so-called "Christian" nations, there are people who sit in church pews their whole lives and fake it, who will say that they are a Christian, because it is politically or socially expedient to do so, but whose faith is no more than a fear of deviating from the norm of their upbringing; there are those who will overcome that fear and outright reject the teachings of Christ; and there are even some who will not be brought up with the Gospel and will reject when it is presented to them.

The point is that, while I understand your point, that it would seem that we are at some sort of great spiritual advantage by being raised in a "Christian" nation, I disagree. I believe that a humble and submissive heart is a humble and submissive heart, whether it be in Iran or in the United States. The fact that a selfish person in an Islamist nation might act out their selfishness in different ways than a selfish person in a "Christian" nation does not change the fact that each man is choosing to reject God by his selfish actions and the final result is that neither man will choose to spend eternity with a God whose values he despises so much.

 

[nt11]

That's not the point. I'm talking about those who do not believe in a Christian God, despite the fact that God may appeared to them in a vision. Using the example of the middle-classs American, if his soul were born into the body of an Islamic extremist who rejected a vision of God, the American man's soul would reject God in the exact same manner as that extremist, because he would experience the exact same upbringing and ultimately accept the exact same twisted version of reality. He would be exactly the same. So what makes him deserve heaven and someone born into a different situation deserve hell? Is it reward by lottery? How is that just?

 

[nt11]

Alright, I'll try to make this more clear. This has nothing to do with individual religions. It has to do with behavior. Let me break this down.

Terrorist:
twisted upbringing, brainwashed into thinking murder's okay, commits murder, goes to hell

American:
solid upbringing, taught that killing people is wrong, accepts jesus into his life and commits no serious sins, goes to heaven

Now let's go back in time. This is the important part. Let's say, just to see what would happen, God switched the future American's soul and the future terrorist's soul at birth. The American is now born into the terrorist's body, and the terrorist is now born into the American's body.

Former American, current terrorist: has the exact same upbringing, brainwashed into thinking murder's okay, commimts murder, goes to hell

Former terrorist, current American: has exact same upbringing, taught that killing people is wrong, accepts Jesus into his life and commits no serious sins, goes to heaven.

Where's the disconnect? Where am I going wrong? Is this not punishment by chance, or what?

 

[dies-l]

That's not the point. I'm talking about those who do not believe in a Christian God, despite the fact that God may appeared to them in a vision. Using the example of the middle-classs American, if his soul were born into the body of an Islamic extremist who rejected a vision of God, the American man's soul would reject God in the exact same manner as that extremist, because he would experience the exact same upbringing and ultimately accept the exact same twisted version of reality. He would be exactly the same. So what makes him deserve heaven and someone born into a different situation deserve hell? Is it reward by lottery? How is that just?

My point is that your statement is speculation. I could likewise speculate that had the American Christian been born into the Islamist's situation, he would have become a sincere seeker and desired God with all of his heart and that the Islamist terrorist might have become a "Christian poser." Certainly, the temporal consequences of their actions would be different, but their standing with God would still be the same.

The fact is that we don't know what would happen if the tables were turned. But, what we do know is that there are many Americans who are brought up in the church, who ultimately either through superficiality or through outright rebellion, reject the Gospel. We also know that there are people who grow up having been indoctrinated by hardcore Islamism, who ultimately accept Christ.

 

[dies-l]

Alright, I'll try to make this more clear. This has nothing to do with individual religions. It has to do with behavior. Let me break this down.

Terrorist:
twisted upbringing, brainwashed into thinking murder's okay, commits murder, goes to hell

American:
solid upbringing, taught that killing people is wrong, accepts jesus into his life and commits no serious sins, goes to heaven

Now let's go back in time. This is the important part. Let's say, just to see what would happen, God switched the future American's soul and the future terrorist's soul at birth. The American is now born into the terrorist's body, and the terrorist is now born into the American's body.

Former American, current terrorist: has the exact same upbringing, brainwashed into thinking murder's okay, commimts murder, goes to hell

Former terrorist, current American: has exact same upbringing, taught that killing people is wrong, accepts Jesus into his life and commits no serious sins, goes to heaven.

Where's the disconnect? Where am I going wrong? Is this not punishment by chance, or what?

Implicit in this statement is an understanding that we are saved by our own righteousness. If the Islamist terrorist sincerely chooses to place his faith in Jesus moments before his suicide bomb explodes, he is as saved as the person who made the same decision as a child and led a "moral life." If the person who is raised in the church and leads a "moral life", but chooses not to place his faith in Jesus, he will spend eternity just as separate from God as the unrepentant Islamist terrorist.

Salvation is a gift from God, not something that we earn by our righteousness.

 

[nt11]

Then why does God choose to bestow his gift on some, and not on others? It's because of our thoughts and actions, is it not? What else exists that influences our salvation or damnation besides our own righteousness?

 

[nt11]

I'm not denying in any way the ability of an Islamic extremist to accept Christ, or the ability of a "poser" Christian to go to hell. But my speculation is just as valid as yours. Do you think that there's at least one American Christian who hasn't gone to hell? I think that's reasonable. And do you think that there's at least one Islamic terrorist who has? I'd say that's reasonable too. This speculation is just as valid as the other. Now here's some more valid specualtion: what would happen if these two souls were to switch places? What POSSIBLE influence could there be upon them to behave differently in their new lives, to the point that the results of their lives could be different? Nothing else exists in the universe, just God, and your environment. Unless there is something within your soul that causes you to be more apt to seek salvation, and if so, how is this just and fair? Why would a loving God make one of His creations more likely to seek him out than the other? What am I missing?

 

[Rhamiel]

the Bible says that God wrote His law onto the hearts of the Gentiles
everyone knows that murder is not right
God is the judge of all, if someone was "brainwashed" then Christ might be more merciful knowing that it was not this persons will to do evil, but that he was twisted from birth to be turned into such a monster, but I am not the judge, it is not my place to show mercy or vengance, I am called to love all mankind, I will do this by telling people of the Good New of Jesus, what Jesus does with these people is His bussiness

 

[nt11]

so you're saying that it's possible for a sinner to acsensde into heaven, even though he has not repented on earth? Because this would contradict, to my knowledge, all traditional Christian teachings about the concept of salvation.

 

[lenpettis74]

so you're saying that it's possible for a sinner to acsensde into heaven, even though he has not repented on earth? Because this would contradict, to my knowledge, all traditional Christian teachings about the concept of salvation.

I want to quote Ravi Zacharias here because I think it is appropriate: "The problem with most "Christians" is they believe in 5 Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Christianity; and they never bother to read the first four."

Scripture is very clear on this topic and to heap presuppositions atop presuppositions based purely on strawman argumentation gets nowhere.

Pick up the bible and read at least the John, Matthew, and Romans. This argument of 'what-if's' will never end if you don't properly understand and apply the Gospel.

 

[dies-l]

I'm not denying in any way the ability of an Islamic extremist to accept Christ, or the ability of a "poser" Christian to go to hell. But my speculation is just as valid as yours. Do you think that there's at least one American Christian who hasn't gone to hell? .This speculation is just as valid as the other. Now here's some more valid specualtion: what would happen if these two souls were to switch places? What POSSIBLE influence could there be upon them to behave differently in their new lives, to the point that the results of their lives could be different? Nothing else exists in the universe, just God, and your environment. Unless there is something within your soul that causes you to be more apt to seek salvation, and if so, how is this just and fair? Why would a loving God make one of His creations more likely to seek him out than the other? What am I missing?

There are a lot of factors that go into making us the people that we are. Certainly, environment has a lot to do with it, but it is not everything. Certainly, each of us has certain predispositions. And, by human standards, it probably strikes many people as unfair that some have different predispositions than other. It seems unfair that most people are born into poverty, while the lucky few of us are born into great material abundance. It seems unfair that some of us are born into oppression and some of us are born into relative liberty. But, I believe that Jesus Christ is available to all of us if we should choose him, and my experience has been the rich and the "free" are, if anything, less likely to seek Him than are the poor and the oppressed. This is why, I believe, Jesus said that it is "easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a wealthy man to enter he kingdom of Heaven."

My point is that all of this seems unfair, because we are looking at it with temporal vision. But, we do see enough for me to believe that God is working things out for the good of those who love Him (and would love Him if they had the opportunity to know Him).

 

[nt11]

Let me be clear, I'm not trying to construct strawman suppositions. I'm proposing real situations that actually occur in the world. Feel free to call me out if I lie or propose a situation that's impossible or ridiculous. So far, I feel that a disenfranchised urban youth, an isolated Buddhist child in communist China, a middle-class American Christian, and an Islamic terrorist are all reasonable representations of thousands of very real people. I've encountered or heard about these people existing in real life. I would love to hear what the gospel says happens to them, in reference to the situations described above. They are children of God, and SOMETHING does happen to them. I'm asking you to please enlighten me on how a just, loving God deals with these people according to Christian theology. What parts of the Gospel do I not properly understand? How does a God, lovingly and justly, deal with the people in these situations?