When does God stop loving you?

nt11

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Dies3l: I am not arguing that God is not. But let me ask you something about what you say about "those who would love him if they had the opportunity to know him." According to my understanding about Christian doctrine, you are not saved UNLESS you know God and accept him as your savior. Am I wrong?
 
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dies-l

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Let me be clear, I'm not trying to construct strawman suppositions. I'm proposing real situations that actually occur in the world. Feel free to call me out if I lie or propose a situation that's impossible or ridiculous. So far, I feel that a disenfranchised urban youth, an isolated Buddhist child in communist China, a middle-class American Christian, and an Islamic terrorist are all reasonable representations of thousands of very real people. I've encountered or heard about these people existing in real life. I would love to hear what the gospel says happens to them, in reference to the situations described above. They are children of God, and SOMETHING does happen to them. I'm asking you to please enlighten me on how a just, loving God deals with these people according to Christian theology. What parts of the Gospel do I not properly understand? How does a God, lovingly and justly, deal with the people in these situations?

He gives them each a choice to follow Him to the best of their ability or to refuse to. The only one of your charicatures that gives me reason to pause when it comes to the question of the possibility of salvation is the Islamist, because his very actions betray an outright rejection of the love of God.
 
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dies-l

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Dies3l: I am not arguing that God is not. But let me ask you something about what you say about "those who would love him if they had the opportunity to know him." According to my understanding about Christian doctrine, you are not saved UNLESS you know God and accept him as your savior. Am I wrong?

I suppose in that regard, I am potentially not completely orthodox. Christians have been debating for centuries about what happens to those who have no opportunity to choose to accept Jesus by name. My personal belief is that we are judged based upon whether we choose to pursue God to the best of our ability considering our circumstances. I cannot speak as to what the official party line is on that question, but my suspicion is that you will not find one, because it is an issue about which there are many reasonable opinions.
 
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nt11

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Thanks for your input Dies3l. I appreciate it very much. Further input from anyone else, whether traditional or not, would also be much appreciated. I would especially like to hear the more traditionalist view on these situations, as it is my opinion that God cannot be loving and just and at the same time condemn these people to hell.
 
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lenpettis74

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Let me be clear, I'm not trying to construct strawman suppositions. I'm proposing real situations that actually occur in the world. Feel free to call me out if I lie or propose a situation that's impossible or ridiculous. So far, I feel that a disenfranchised urban youth, an isolated Buddhist child in communist China, a middle-class American Christian, and an Islamic terrorist are all reasonable representations of thousands of very real people. I've encountered or heard about these people existing in real life. I would love to hear what the gospel says happens to them, in reference to the situations described above. They are children of God, and SOMETHING does happen to them. I'm asking you to please enlighten me on how a just, loving God deals with these people according to Christian theology. What parts of the Gospel do I not properly understand? How does a God, lovingly and justly, deal with the people in these situations?


When you say "I feel so and so are reasonable representations of thousands of real people" a strawman is precisely what you've constructed. If you don't understand what the Gospel says about these so called situations, than you haven't even rudimentary knowledge of the Gospel, let alone any level of Christian theology. So are you asking these questions as devil's advocate, a new believer, non-believer, or as a member of another faith?
 
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nt11

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Wikipedia: "straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position"

Again, I’m not misrepresenting anything. To propose a strawman theory, you must be attempting to misrepresent reality. I'm not, and as I said, you can call me out if I start enumerating types of people that are unrealistic or most likely do not exist. So far, I feel that a disenfranchised urban youth, an isolated Buddhist boy in China, an American Christian, and an Islamic terrorist are representations of thousands of real people. If you believe that I don't have sufficient knowledge of the Gospel, then please enlighten me. I asked once before, so I’ll make an assumption this time: according to the Gospel, they all go to hell.

My qualm with this is, how could a loving, just God send these people, who either have had no chance to know Jesus, or were placed in a situation in which they were less likely to know him than say, my example of an American Christian, to hell? Say this American Christian committed no serious sins, repented to Jesus, and was saved. If the Islamic extremist had happened to have been placed into his situation at birth, if their lives had been switched, the former Islamic extremist would have been saved and the former American Christian condemned to hell, because each would have the exact same upbringing as their counterpart. Their fates would be opposite. It would thus be punishment by luck of the draw.

Unless it's your contention that something exists within one's soul that determines whether or not we will be more apt to seek Him out before we are born, but if this is the case, how in the world can we control that? If this were true, we would be either influenced to damnation or salvation before we are born. How could a JUST, LOVING God do this, when neither has committed any sins or proven themselves worthy or unworthy in any way? It would be punishment by LOTTERY.

I was born and raised Catholic, by the way.
 
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lenpettis74

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Wikipedia: straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position

Again, I’m not misrepresenting anything. To propose a strawman, you must be attempting to misrepresent reality. As I said, you can call me out if I’m proposing a situation that is impossible or ridiculous. So far, I feel that a disenfranchised urban youth, and isolated Buddhist boy in China, an American Christian, and an Islamic terrorist are representations of thousands of real people. If you believe that I don't have sufficient knowledge of the Gospel, then please enlighten me. I asked once before, so I’ll make an assumption: according to the Gospel, they all go to hell. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I was born and raised Catholic.

According to the Gospel and several texts of the NT, yes, they will go to hell. Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven. I know it's not easy to swallow and it may seem unfair to us, but that is why we as Christians were given "The Great Commission" to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every living creature, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." I try to live my faith by example everyday, but of course I fall short often. That being said, one thing we should do, and I have tried to do, is this: within 10 minutes of a conversation with anyone I've never met before, they will know I am a Christian by my words and deeds. Hopefully that helps, and sorry if I came off as condemning in previous posts, I should have proof-read more closely before posting.
 
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msortwell

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So basically, God hates me when I’m born? If I were born into a Buddhist household in Rural China and died when I was 6, before I discovered anything about Jesus, God would cast me into hell?

The Scriptures seem to address your question by providing Jacob and Esau as examples.

“9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” (Ro 9:9-16 AV)

Blessings,
 
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greatbar

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Thanks for your input. I appreciate it. If you or anyone else has any more input on the traditional Christian view of salvation, I'd be happy to hear it. Until then, I'll consider the discussion closed. Thanks to all.

I firmly believe that God does NOT love everyone; rather, just the elect. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" Romans 9:13

Firstly, we need to understand the nature of God (as best our finite minds are able). God is sovereign and absolute. He created us, and our main purpose in life is to glorify God and enjoy Him. We glorify Him by obeying Him. This, in our natural nature (being born sinful), is so opposite and impossible to us, and something we can't fathom doing. We love sin and our own wicked ways. This, for the Christian, is the "old man".

When we are converted and born again (the "new man"), the rest of our lives we spend warring against the old man. It is a constant battle, yet a battle we win in death. Praise be to God for His goodness to us in giving us life eternal when we do nothing in and of ourselves to warrant salvation. It is all by the goodness of God and His own good choosing.

What have you, or I, or anyone else ever done to deserve salvation? Nothing. None of us have any good in us whatsoever.

Therefore the natural conclusion to God's nature and sovereignty when we say that he doesn't love everyone is to send those to hell who never repent. Hell is a place that we all deserve, yet some avoid through God's good will.

I'll just briefly quote a few relevant points from the doctrinal standards to which my church (and consequently me) hold to:

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
.....
VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.
VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.

Edit: Just to clarify my position. I firmly believe that no-one chooses God (how can we possibly choose God when we are so predispositioned to sin?), but rather, God chooses us.
 
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I'm new to this area, but I'm willing to offer up my two cents for what it's worth. The Bible teaches that there are only two types of people. The saved and the unsaved. The dead and the living. The sheep and the goats. You are either one or the other. Nobody sits on the fence. Jesus said "He who does not gather with me scatters abroad." There is no neutrality. Knowing this we can better address the heaven and hell issue. The "I" in TULIP covers this area. When God draws you, you respond. "No man cometh unto the father but the father draws him." This means that God saves sinners. God does not help sinners save themselves. If you live in an area of the world were Jesus is not spoken of, missionaries have not penetrated, and the Bible is unknown, you don't have anything to worry about. God will not send someone to hell because they've never heard of Jesus. God will send you to hell because you know there is a Creator, and you refuse to acknowledge him. The first and second chapters of Romans explains this. I am not sure where the age of accountability came from. Perhaps David's son was one of the elect, or perhaps it was just wishful thinking on David's part. Proper exegesis necessitates being able to tell the difference between God making a promise, and the Bible telling us that somebody said or did something and that thing being true. Yours In Christ: Sometruckdriver
 
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Serious Faith

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God cannot stop loving because "God is love". We are the ones that stop loving Him. God also cannot lie, so if a person rejects Jesus Christ willfully, God will have to judge him because of that. It is our sin that seperates us from God. Nothing keeps us from walking with God but our own choice not to. God is so loving that if we truly repent and turn back to Him, He will forgive us. Now thats love! check out seriousfaithonline.com
 
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Hairy Tic

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To any and all (I would like a multi-denominational view on this):

I've pondered over this question a lot. God initially loves you unconditionally, right? So when does God say to a creation that he loves unconditionally, "I no longer love you because of what you've done," and send you to hell? At what point does God abandon you?

Because if hell exists, this must happen at some point.
## IMHO, Hell is God's Love as received by those who made themselves incapable of knowing Him as Love. Sin is what damns us - & sin is a lie, a delusion. God is "Really Real". (Acknowledgements to St. Catherine of Siena & to Dorothy Sayers for that :))

Is God's Love unconditional ? I think it has to be - if not, we would have to earn it; which is totally impossible. For, left to ourselves, & outside God's Love, there is nothing in us that is not damnable; simply because God is inconceivably Holy.
 
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preistsplace

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To any and all (I would like a multi-denominational view on this):

I've pondered over this question a lot. God initially loves you unconditionally, right? So when does God say to a creation that he loves unconditionally, "I no longer love you because of what you've done," and send you to hell? At what point does God abandon you?

Because if hell exists, this must happen at some point.
I will state my denominations view on this.......God never stops loving people
in the end he reconciles the whole world through Christs sacrifice. And reconciliation is only possible through Christ....the denomination is Christian Universalism
 
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Forgotten

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What does scripture say? If you don't like tough answers, stop asking tough questions.

Did he accept Jesus as his savior and repent? There isn't an american teenager that hasn't heard of Him, so stop putting up strawman arguments to make a weak case.

Now answer your own question...:thumbsup:

Amen!

I thoroughly enjoyed and agreed with your answer!
[/Though I took some out so as to make the quote shorter.]
Sometimes, people need to look truth in the face.
 
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rburckhart

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Wow! I read the question and started reading the many replies which seemed to get farther and farther from the original question. Maybe my answer is too simple but for what it's worth, here it is - John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

There is NEVER a time when God doesn't love us! He loves us so much that he gave us a way that enables us to spend eternity with him. If we choose NOT to accept his free gift, then yes, we are destined to spend eternity in hell. But here's the deal - WE are the ones who condemn ouselves to hell, not God! He loves us and wants us to be with him forever - but it's OUR choice!
 
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nt11

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Hi everyone, it's been awhile since I posted, and it's interesting to see this topic is still current. A lot has changed in my life since I posed this question, and frankly, God has sought me out and touched me. I was at the lowest, most desperate point I could imagine, and faith, with a little help from a few fellow Christians, brought me out of it....and I realized why some people come out of it and some people don't: faith. Some choose to give in at tough points in their life, and some people stand their ground and enlist God' help. That's what i did - I gave my life to God. And He allowed me to rise back up, and now here I am, back where I was before, only better, in every possible way. After the post but before my downfall, I had a dream. In the dream, I just remember reading the words "Luke 7: 12-14." I had never read the Bible seriosuly before, so I had no idea what those verses were about. It turns out that those are the exact verses in which Jesus raises a boy from the dead for the first time. I never even knew Jesus did that more than once. The passage ends with Jesus telling the boy, "Arise!" I woke up immediately afterward. God was trying to tell me something, and though I didn't listen closely at the time, that blessing was there for me when I most needed it. God Bless, everyone, thanks for the responses.
 
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