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When does blindness occur?

FutureAndAHope

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Romans is a book that is often the topic of fierce debate, when it comes to the theological topic of Predestination, and free will. Personally, I believe that God has given man free will, that all people will be given a chance of life, but their choices determine whether they will be saved.

One of the key topics of this debate is the fact that God brings blindness to the sinner. If a person believes in Predestination, they will say, “A portion of the world was always destined, or planned, to be blind from the beginning”. That, “God only rescues a selected portion of creation, not based on man’s deeds, but God’s choice”.

I would like to show from Romans 1 that it makes more sense to believe spiritual blindness comes as “a result of disobedience”, not as a default; it comes because of man’s choice. As we see in the 21st verse.

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

Romans 1:21 shows us that God gives His knowledge to all, but some men choose to “supress” or push down that knowledge, God then gives those people over to blindness.

We see that also in:

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

God sends strong delusion to those who have “pleasure in unrighteousness”. So a debased mind is not the default, but rather what we are given over to if we delight in sin.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;​

The earliest Church Leaders also taught that man “as it were, blind themselves”

4. ... but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. (Irenaeus 120-202, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39 -End)
Note: blindness in this post is not referring to Spiritual Ignorance, but rather a deep blindness that prevents salvation from occurring. We are all born with Spiritual Ignorance, blindness in this post refers to that which prevents salvation.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.
 
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A New Dawn

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Spiritual blindness occurs as the result of the fall. Because Adam rebelled against God, sin entered the world, and (spiritual (as well as physical)) death by sin. We are conceived and born in sin, it requires a savior to overcome this blindness. Jesus said that those with ears to hear/eyes to see would understand the truth, and that is generally considered a function of God working in us and turning us to Himself.

I believe what you are calling spiritual ignorance is what was occurring in the Garden of Eden prior to Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Spiritual blindness occurs as the result of the fall. Because Adam rebelled against God, sin entered the world, and (spiritual (as well as physical)) death by sin. We are conceived and born in sin, it requires a savior to overcome this blindness. Jesus said that those with ears to hear/eyes to see would understand the truth, and that is generally considered a function of God working in us and turning us to Himself.
Indeed, it is a matter of God's grace to lift the dark veil which lies over the minds of people.
 
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Aaron112

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I would like to show from Romans 1 that it makes more sense to believe spiritual blindness comes as “a result of disobedience”, not as a default;
Some have tried to show that blindness is a result of man's choice; but failed.
The whole of Scripture, and YHVH'S Plan for Salvation,
repeatedly and throughout all history shows that men are blind by default, as you put it.
What is the part in the religion that tries to show otherwise ? Why try ? It is part of a religious system that for some reason 'needs' men to only be blind by choice/disobedience, but that contradicts too much Scripture. All Scripture is true - Scripture does not contradict itself; or rather, God's Plan and God's Word is Perfect Forever , and His Plan as well, and there is no contradiction in nor from God,
so if anything or anyone contradicts God, it or them is not truthful nor from God.
===============
Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › passage

10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

Acts 17:27

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

... [grope for; reach out to; feel their way towards] him and find him, though he ... “He did all this so that people might seek God in the hope that by groping ...

Deuteronomy 28:29

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

so that at noon you will grope as a blind person gropes in the dark. ... And you shall be groping at noon just as the blind person gropes in the dark ...

Isaiah 59:10

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

We grope like the blind along a wall, groping like those who have no eyes; we stumble at noon as in the twilight, among the vigorous as though we were dead.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Some have tried to show that blindness is a result of man's choice; but failed.
The whole of Scripture, and YHVH'S Plan for Salvation,
repeatedly and throughout all history shows that men are blind by default, as you put it.
What is the part in the religion that tries to show otherwise ? Why try ? It is part of a religious system that for some reason 'needs' men to only be blind by choice/disobedience, but that contradicts too much Scripture. All Scripture is true - Scripture does not contradict itself; or rather, God's Plan and God's Word is Perfect Forever , and His Plan as well, and there is no contradiction in nor from God,
so if anything or anyone contradicts God, it or them is not truthful nor from God.
Absolutely. Blindness is very much the default condition of humanity. One must strain mightily to prove that those who have never heard the Gospel, much less even the very name of Jesus Christ, have made a cogent decision to reject God.
 
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Aaron112

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Absolutely. Blindness is very much the default condition of humanity. One must strain mightily to prove that those who have never heard the Gospel, much less even the very name of Jesus Christ, have made a cogent decision to reject God.
Still, for consideration of most of mankind's rejecting Jesus, remember Scripture, it is written, that soon (or already perhaps?), at least two-thirds of mankind on earth alive refuses to repent , they refuse to stop, worshiping (serving) demons. Every day they serve demons, and refuse to pray to God or turn to God or ask God for help or forgiveness.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Still, for consideration of most of mankind's rejecting Jesus, remember Scripture, it is written, that soon (or already perhaps?), at least two-thirds of mankind on earth alive refuses to repent , they refuse to stop, worshiping (serving) demons. Every day they serve demons, and refuse to pray to God or turn to God or ask God for help or forgiveness.
In my own experience in a nation such as China, the vast majority of people have virtually no significant religious orientation. They are very focused on surviving day to day and, if possible, bettering their economic and social circumstances. They are simply guilty of not believing in Jesus Christ. Their sin is not idolatry or paganism of any significant degree, but that of human nature, which is completely selfish with no desire to renounce self and serve anything other than self.
 
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Aaron112

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Aaron112

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Ephesians continued "2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. "
 
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bbbbbbb

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bbbbbbb

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Ephesians continued "2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. "
Thank you.
 
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Aaron112

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They are actually dead, according to Ephesians 2:2. To believe that a dead person is willingly rebellious against God requires a great effort to read into the verse.
No, no effort at all. Read all Scripture and see if the dead are obedient or rebelling against the spirit. The flesh is always opposed to the spirit, opposed to Jesus, rebellious in sin against the Creator, naturally , as written in and throughout Scripture.
 
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Aaron112

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All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. "

Thank you.
no, no thanks due me. See the Creator while He May Be Found, thanking HIM for His Mercy.....
 
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bbbbbbb

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no, no thanks due me. See the Creator while He May Be Found, thanking HIM for His Mercy.....
What is described in Ephesians 2:1-8 are those who are dead. Dead. Dead to God. Not alive. Dead spiritually.

It does not describe folks who are intentionally idolatrous. There is no mention whatsoever of idolatry. You need to go to Romans 1 for that.

It describes the fruits of death in Ephesians 2, which can be summarized as the fruit of pure, unadulterated selfishness.

The sad thing is that there are multitudes of professing Christians who remain intently selfish. They are eagerly seeking their own personal salvation. It is all about them. They are in it for the rewards, expecting a better mansion in heaven, greater rewards, more honor, etc. I believe that many of these folks are just as selfish as the vast majority of heathen who, despite never having had the slightest contact with Christianity, are just as dead in sin and just as selfish.
 
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Aaron112

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It does not describe folks who are intentionally idolatrous. There is no mention whatsoever of idolatry. You need to go to Romans 1 for that.
Genesis thru The Apocalypse shows mankind as intentionally and willingly idolatrous, like many members reading the forum. Not just willingly opposed to the truth, avidly breaking the law, harming as many as they are able to worldwide, but likewise stubbornly or willfully refusing to turn to God at all.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Genesis thru The Apocalypse shows mankind as intentionally and willingly idolatrous, like many members reading the forum. Not just willingly opposed to the truth, avidly breaking the law, harming as many as they are able to worldwide, but likewise stubbornly or willfully refusing to turn to God at all.
Genesis through the Revelation shows all sorts of things, but not consistently. For example, one can easily see God's eternal love in the entire Bible. However, one also sees God's justice, as well. Justice is not love, is it?
 
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Aaron112

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Genesis through the Revelation shows all sorts of things, but not consistently. For example, one can easily see God's eternal love in the entire Bible. However, one also sees God's justice, as well. Justice is not love, is it?
God's Justice Is In Perfect Agape (Love Beyond all imaginations of men).
Perhaps He May Grant you to see Perfect Harmony Consistently In and Through All of His Word, and His Plan.
 
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