When do the last days end?

[Dave L]

Explain how those two verses I submitted are not contradicting each other if both are alleged to be true at the same time. That would be a good start in order for me to try and see where you are coming from.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more----- For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. So this is not a contradiction if both of these things are true at the same time?

There are two or three ways I can answer this. The Schleitheim Confession isolates the pacifism of the nations to the church in every nation. Non-violence is the mark of a true believer. (Violent churches are not true churches.) So we can harmonize both passages this way.

We can also assign the pacifism of the nations to heaven now, where all Christians live in perfect peace among themselves. And we can assign it to the New Heavens and Earth where the "forever" kingdom realizes all the golden age prophecies.

 

[DavidPT]

think that's a very strong argument that Isaiah 2:2-4 = Ezekiel 39:25-29

and we know that "Gog & Magog" = Revelation 20:7-9

so the eternal perpetual peace of Isaiah 2:2-4 = defeat of Gog & Magog = Rev 20:9 = Ezekiel 39

= New Jerusalem (Rev 21-22)

???

If this all connects with Rev 20:9 though, I don't see how the thousand years can be meaning after the return of Christ in that case, since it seems to me that the judgment of Gog and his multitude per Ezekiel 39, that this takes place in the end of this present age. I wish I could understand your thoughts a little better since I feel you are raising some interesting points. I'm just not fully on the same page with you unfortunately. Not your fault though. More my fault. You are explaining things coherently enough, yet I'm still not always fully grasping what you are meaning ultimately.

 

[Dave L]

If this all connects with Rev 20:9 though, I don't see how the thousand years can be meaning after the return of Christ in that case, since it seems to me that the judgment of Gog and his multitude per Ezekiel 39, that this takes place in the end of this present age. I wish I could understand your thoughts a little better since I feel you are raising some interesting points. I'm just not fully on the same page with you unfortunately. Not your fault though. More my fault. You are explaining things coherently enough, yet I'm still not fully grasping what you are always meaning ultimately.

In Revelation 20 the 1000 years represent Satan's binding so he cannot deceive the nations. The saints rule over him using the same 1000 year symbol. = The gospel goes to the whole world and God's elect are brought into the kingdom.

Thought: The angel = Greek messenger. The chain = the message (gospel). The 1000 years = Satan's binding by the saints who wield the gospel. Satan loosed = the gospel falls on deaf ears and Satan once again deceives the nations.

When Satan is loosed, he attacks the kingdom (using symbolic Gog and Magog). So the kingdom is not a 1000 year millennium.

 

[DavidPT]

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more----- For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. So this is not a contradiction if both of these things are true at the same time?

There are two or three ways I can answer this. The Schleitheim Confession isolates the pacifism of the nations to the church in every nation. Non-violence is the mark of a true believer. (Violent churches are not true churches.) So we can harmonize both passages this way.

We can also assign the pacifism of the nations to heaven now, where all Christians live in perfect peace among themselves. And we can assign it to the New Heavens and Earth where the "forever" kingdom realizes all the golden age prophecies.

I'm confused more than ever now. This went way over my head. Perhaps if you tried explaining it in a different way? Not trying to be difficult here, genuinely wanting to try and understand this from your perspective in order to try and determine whether your perspective is making sense or not of the texts involved.

 

[Dave L]

I'm confused more than ever now. This went way over my head. Perhaps if you tried explaining it in a different way? Not trying to be difficult here, genuinely wanting to try and understand this from your perspective in order to try and determine whether your perspective is making sense or not of the texts involved.

Jesus taught us to beat our swords into plowshares. And Christians from every nation do this. (There are false Christians and churches that do the opposite). So this prophecy is current. But the wars and rumors of wars are God's judgement on the wicked.

 

[DavidPT]

In Revelation 20 the 1000 years represent Satan's binding so he cannot deceive the nations. The saints rule over him using the same 1000 year symbol. = The gospel goes to the whole world and God's elect are brought into the kingdom.

Thought: The angel = Greek messenger. The chain = the message (gospel). The 1000 years = Satan's binding by the saints who wield the gospel. Satan loosed = the gospel falls on deaf ears and Satan once again deceives the nations.

When Satan is loosed, he attacks the kingdom (using symbolic Gog and Magog). So the kingdom is not a 1000 year millennium.

What you propose at least makes sense to some degree. I will give you that. The reason I say to some degree, let's not forget that I'm presently Premil. What doesn't make sense, the text indicated satan is cast into the BP. Usually when something or someone is cast into somewhere, it's usually a real place of some kind they are cast into. An example. satan is cast into the LOF, thus is cast into a real place of some kind. You would think the same logic applies when he is cast into the BP, thus cast into a real place of some kind, thus his binding shouldn't be taken in a spiritual sense since no one would likely take his casting into the LOF in a spiritual sense. Or at least one would think no one would, but who knows, perhaps some do anyway?

 

[Erik Nelson]

If this all connects with Rev 20:9 though, I don't see how the thousand years can be meaning after the return of Christ in that case, since it seems to me that the judgment of Gog and his multitude per Ezekiel 39, that this takes place in the end of this present age. I wish I could understand your thoughts a little better since I feel you are raising some interesting points. I'm just not fully on the same page with you unfortunately. Not your fault though. More my fault. You are explaining things coherently enough, yet I'm still not always fully grasping what you are meaning ultimately.

defeat of Gog = Ezekiel 39 = Rev 20:9

Second Coming (2C) = Rev 20:11 =

But why would He have been hiding His face from the church then? One part of me feels you are perhaps raising some valid points here, while another part of me has to wonder how the church fits in here, since the Israel meant here, God has been hiding His face from them.

same reason as with national Israel by blood... because of backsliding & apostasy into unbelief

the Millennium was brought about by God's beneficence upon believers for their faith...

so the end of the Millennium implies an end, to some degree, of God's good will towards the Church...

presumably b/c of corruption & unbelief, apostasy & backsliding

that would be the only valid reason why God would allow Gog & Magog to make such inroads against spiritual Israel = Church

spiritual Israel = Church has no more claim to automatic salvation than national Israel...

nobody gets God's good will "automatically for free"

in fact, it would be worse for Christians (Hebrews 10:26) to whom was revealed the knowledge of truth, such that if they afterwards apostatize, "there is no more sacrifice for sins" and forgiveness of the same!

 

[Erik Nelson]

If this all connects with Rev 20:9 though, I don't see how the thousand years can be meaning after the return of Christ in that case, since it seems to me that the judgment of Gog and his multitude per Ezekiel 39, that this takes place in the end of this present age. I wish I could understand your thoughts a little better since I feel you are raising some interesting points. I'm just not fully on the same page with you unfortunately. Not your fault though. More my fault. You are explaining things coherently enough, yet I'm still not always fully grasping what you are meaning ultimately.

defeat of Gog = Ezekiel 39 = Rev 20:9

Second Coming (2C) = Rev 20:11 = Great White Throne w/ Christ upon it as ordained by God

Rev 19 is not the 2C, but a prefiguration of the same, a foreshadowing

 

[Dave L]

What you propose at least makes sense to some degree. I will give you that. The reason I say to some degree, let's not forget that I'm presently Premil. What doesn't make sense, the text indicated satan is cast into the BP. Usually when something or someone is cast into somewhere, it's usually a real place of some kind they are cast into. An example. satan is cast into the LOF, thus is cast into a real place of some kind. You would think the same logic applies when he is cast into the BP, thus cast into a real place of some kind, thus his binding shouldn't be taken in a spiritual sense since no one would likely take his casting into the LOF in a spiritual sense. Or at least one would think no one would, but who knows, perhaps some do anyway?

Satan is bound completely by the gospel. He is a liar and the gospel is truth that sets us free. But God uses him in his wrath over the nations. He is not bound in that respect.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

So, Satan can be wreaking havoc next door while the gospel saves the neighbors.

 

[DavidPT]

And we can assign it to the New Heavens and Earth where the "forever" kingdom realizes all the golden age prophecies.

Wouldn't that mean the last days per Isaiah 2 are meaning during the NHNE then? Isn't the NHNE when Christ returns? Even though I'm Premil, I agree the NHNE begin at the 2nd coming. Most Premils reject that possibility though. But not all Premils do. So it's not like I'm alone in my thinking here. So per my view if I see Isaiah 2:4 being during the millennium, and that I also see the millennium being a part of the NHNE, our disagreement then seems to be where we each are placing the millennium.

BTW, after I read your post again, it wasn't going over my head after all, as I initially assumed. I just needed to read it again is all.

 

[Dave L]

Wouldn't that mean the last days per Isaiah 2 are meaning during the NHNE then? Isn't the NHNE when Christ returns? Even though I'm Premil, I agree the NHNE begin at the 2nd coming. Most Premils reject that possibility though. But not all Premils do. So it's not like I'm alone in my thinking here. So per my view if I see Isaiah 2:4 being during the millennium, and that I also see the millennium being a part of the NHNE, our disagreement then seems to be where we each are placing the millennium.

BTW, after I read your post again, it wasn't going over my head after all, as I initially assumed. I just needed to read it again is all.

“In the future the mountain of the Lord’s temple will endure as the most important of mountains, and will be the most prominent of hills. All the nations will stream to it, many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the Lord’s mountain, to the temple of the God of Jacob, so he can teach us his requirements, and we can follow his standards.” For Zion will be the center for moral instruction; the Lord will issue edicts from Jerusalem. He will judge disputes between nations; he will settle cases for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nations will not take up the sword against other nations, and they will no longer train for war. O descendants of Jacob, come, let us walk in the Lord’s guiding light.” (Isaiah 2:2–5)

This is all happening now. The Church is Israel. And Jesus' kingdom is eternal.

“So the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God! Listen: You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus.He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David. He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom will never end.”” (Luke 1:30–33)

 

[DavidPT]

d

Rev 19 is not the 2C, but a prefiguration of the same, a foreshadowing

You lost me here. If you perhaps are willing to expand on this some, I'm willing to at least listen. Don't know if I will eventually end up agreeing with you though, but who knows, maybe I will eventually. I just don't know yet.

 

[claninja]

There's a rumour going around that Jesus will come back the same way those who saw him go to heaven.

Correct, Jesus will come from heaven, the same we he was seen going INTO heaven
Acts 1:11 Men of Galilee,” they said, “Why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go INTO heaven.”

And how did Jesus go INTO heaven? Hidden in a cloud. A cloud took him out of their sight.
Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

So how will Jesus come back? The same way he went into heaven, IN a cloud, out of sight.

God in the OT is spirit and anthropomorphic references of him coming down, riding a chariot or doing things with his hands and feet were never meant to be literal. But Jesus is flesh so when you refer to him in the flesh, it doesn't demand the figurative and may indeed speak to the literal flesh.

Jesus' glorified body is flesh? Why would the language of the 'coming of God' in the old testament mean something completely different in the new testament, especially if Jesus is God?

 

[claninja]

agree with your language & choice of words

offer you could interpret the same from a Christian perspective:

• "Jacob / Israel" = true spiritual Jacob / Israel = Church
• "land of Israel" = lands & societies of Christendom
• "Gog & Magog" leading "nations" = leaders of those outside of the Church & Christendom

not sure it makes sense for Christians to read Scriptures about post-Millennial End-of-Earth times of opposition to "Israel" in the same way as (say) non-Christian Judaism ? Christian Scriptures only acknowledge the Church as truly, spiritually-where-it-matters-to-God, "Israel".

Rome's attack on Israel is the days of vengeance that fulfills ALL that is written. Therefore, Gog and magog attacking Israel must be fulfilled sometime prior to or at Rome attacking Israel. Otherwise, how could there more attacking Israel after that, if it fulfills ALL that is written?

Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written

 

[DavidPT]

Rome's attack on Israel is the days of vengeance that fulfills ALL that is written. Therefore, Gog and magog attacking Israel must be fulfilled sometime prior to or at Rome attacking Israel. Otherwise, how could there more attacking Israel after that, if it fulfills ALL that is written?

Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


What about this then? Have these things already been fulfilled? It sure looks like Israel is being attacked here as well, except the LORD ends up fighting on their behalf, something He absolutely did not do when the Romans came against Israel in the first century. It also looks like He fights on behalf of Israel in Ezekiel 39 as well. Maybe just a coincidence?

 

[joshua 1 9]

So the end was the destruction of Jerusalem and 2000 years later is the return of Christ. Perhaps there will be another destruction of Jerusalem and perhaps when Jesus said the ends of the earth he, being the only one who could, was speaking far broader than any ancient Roman world could conceive of.

I am only using the comet to say that the year 29 ad was the year Jesus went to carvery and then 50 days later was the day of Pentecostal and the beginning of the Christian Church. I do not know for sure if the rapture is going to take place in 2029 but it could. The destruction of Jerusalem / temple was in 70 AD. That would have been 40 years later.

Clearly Jesus was saying that the destruction of the temple in 70 ad is a shadow and a type of what we can expect to see at the end of the church age. There are people that believe the Kingdom age has already begun and the Kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of God. Somewhere along the way Satan will be thrown into the bottomless pit and sealed there for 1,000 years. We rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years and then there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Yes, but would anyone consider them to be mere children at that age?

It is a different interpretation then that. Still we are talking about the beginning of the Kingdom age. That the average age will be 100 because it is already 90 now. By the end of the Age people could live to be 1,000 and longer when there is a New Heaven and a New Earth.

 

[joshua 1 9]

What about this then? Have these things already been fulfilled?

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and the people were scattered to the nations at that time.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So where is the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory?

Yes He is, that prophecy has been given by many people in the Bible including Jesus Himself. He is going to come with His Church and He will rule and reign here on the Earth for 1,000 years.

 

[BABerean2]

Yes He is, that prophecy has been given by many people in the Bible including Jesus Himself. He is going to come with His Church and He will rule and reign here on the Earth for 1,000 years.

The woman at the well agrees with you.
You must have missed the part where Jesus corrected her.

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46, and Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18 kill the premill doctrine.

.