When do the last days end?

[DavidPT]

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Verse 2 indicates these things come to pass in the last days. Note in verse 4 this--- and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Now compare with the following.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

Chronologically, does it seem nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more, after or as of the events of Ezekiel 39:9-10, or before these events?

Ezekiel 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Take note of what kind of people are being judged here---all men of war. All men of war obviously involves nation lifting up sword against nation. Yet, once Ezekiel 39:20 is fulfilled, that seems to be when Isaiah 2:4 initially begins to be fulfilled---and he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. This indicates He shall judge among the nations. Isn't that exactly what He is doing in Ezekiel 39?


So based on all of the above, when is one taking Isaiah 2:2-4 to be meaning? Before Christ returns, or after Christ has returned, keeping in mind that these verses come to pass in the last days, and so do the events of Ezekiel 38 and 39 according to Ezekiel 38:8. There has to be chronology here though. Something has to chronologically follow something else.

 

[Dave L]

In that case I guess that means we need to tear numerous Scriptures from our Bibles and toss them into the trash. Even though these numerous Scriptures say otherwise. But I guess you know better than these Scriptures do. You are obviously basing your conclusions on one testament alone in this case, rather than both testaments together. IOW you have both testaments contradicting one another.

You are trying to cram eternal promises, now being fulfilled in heaven, and to be fulfilled in the New Heavens and Earth, into 1000 years that has no support from scripture. Zero.....

 

[Dave L]

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Verse 2 indicates these things come to pass in the last days. Note in verse 4 this--- and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Now compare with the following.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

Chronologically, does it seem nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more, after or as of the events of Ezekiel 39:9-10, or before these events?

Ezekiel 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Take note of what kind of people are being judged here---all men of war. All men of war obviously involves nation lifting up sword against nation. Yet, once Ezekiel 39:20 is fulfilled, that seems to be when Isaiah 2:4 initially begins to be fulfilled---and he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. This indicates He shall judge among the nations. Isn't that exactly what He is doing in Ezekiel 39?


So based on all of the above, when is one taking Isaiah 2:2-4 to be meaning? Before Christ returns, or after Christ has returned, keeping in mind that these verses come to past in the last days, and so do the events of Ezekiel 38 and 39 according to Ezekiel 38:8. There has to be chronology here though. Something has to chronologically follow something else.

Much of this is fulfilled on earth now, and in heaven where Jesus reigns on David's throne. And to be fulfilled in the New Heavens and Earth which is the restoration of Israel in the resurrection on the last day. But only the born again can see the kingdom. It is spiritual and not physical.

 

[claninja]

.
Your whole Supposition of these events is wrong, and now your taking verses from all over the place and forcing them into your Supposition to make it work.

Did you gloss over the initial part of the sentence "possible option".

and now your taking verses from all over the place and forcing them into your Supposition to make it work.

Is Gog brought against an empty Israel?
Ezekiel 39:1-20 talks about Israel already being in the promiseland
Ezekiel 39:9 ‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel
Ezekiel 39:12  ‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.

What is the context of Ezekiel 39:21-24? The exile that they were currently in. God handed them over to babylon and hid is face from them.
Ezekiel 39:21-24 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God. And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

With Ezekiel 39:25-29 being when God would regather them, restore jacobs fortune, and pour out his spirit.

Psalm 85:1, which was written after the return from exile states the following:
You showed favor to Your land, O LORD
You restored Jacob's fortune.a

God also poured out his spirit on them (acts 2).

My supposition is that Gog attacks an Israel that is inhabited by Israelites. In order for that to happen, they would have to return from the babylonian exile.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Verse 2 indicates these things come to pass in the last days. Note in verse 4 this--- and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Now compare with the following.

Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

Chronologically, does it seem nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more, after or as of the events of Ezekiel 39:9-10, or before these events?

Ezekiel 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Take note of what kind of people are being judged here---all men of war. All men of war obviously involves nation lifting up sword against nation. Yet, once Ezekiel 39:20 is fulfilled, that seems to be when Isaiah 2:4 initially begins to be fulfilled---and he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. This indicates He shall judge among the nations. Isn't that exactly what He is doing in Ezekiel 39?


So based on all of the above, when is one taking Isaiah 2:2-4 to be meaning? Before Christ returns, or after Christ has returned, keeping in mind that these verses come to pass in the last days, and so do the events of Ezekiel 38 and 39 according to Ezekiel 38:8. There has to be chronology here though. Something has to chronologically follow something else.

think that's a very strong argument that Isaiah 2:2-4 = Ezekiel 39:25-29

and we know that "Gog & Magog" = Revelation 20:7-9

so the eternal perpetual peace of Isaiah 2:2-4 = defeat of Gog & Magog = Rev 20:9 = Ezekiel 39

= New Jerusalem (Rev 21-22)

???

 

[Dave L]

think that's a very plausible description of Revelation 20:9 onwards

Think you could still accept a "Millennium" as "One Biblical Day" (per 2 Peter 3) in the life of the Church. One phase or stage of the existence of the same.

I think if we make the 1000 years apply to more than Satan's binding by the saints who reign during the same symbolic event, we add to Revelation.

 

[claninja]

So where is the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory?

Did God literally come down from heaven to defeat David's enemies?
2 samuel 22:10-11 He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he was seen on the wings of the wind.

Or how about when the assyrians destroyed samaria?
Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the LORD is coming out of his place,
and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains will melt under him,
and the valleys will split open,like wax before the fire,

 

[DamianWarS]

Don't they usually use a Sept date for the coming of the Lord? Could be in the year 2029. I think that is the 2,000 year anniversary of the church. The dates for the degrasse comet are very interesting. First on Friday before the Passover begins. And the second time on Resurrection Sunday. Very exact and precise to the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Luke 21:26 "Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.…"

So the end was the destruction of Jerusalem and 2000 years later is the return of Christ. Perhaps there will be another destruction of Jerusalem and perhaps when Jesus said the ends of the earth he, being the only one who could, was speaking far broader than any ancient Roman world could conceive of.

 

[claninja]

After thinking on this some more I see no reason to change my initial position, that verse 29 can't be fulfilled until Gog and his multitude are dealt with by God first.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

The heathen meant in verse 23 are obviously the same heathen meant in verse 21.The judgment the heathen sees in verse 21 is the judgment dealing with Gog and his multitude. Chronologically then, verse 29 is meaning after verse 23. I don't see how your interpretation can possibly work. Your interpretation has events chronologically out of order as far as I can tell.


Look at verse 24, clearly chronologically meaning after verse 21.


Ezekiel 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

This shows He hid His face from them all the way up until He deals with Gog and his multitude.

Is Gog brought against an empty Israel?
Ezekiel 39:1-20 talks about Israel already being in the promiseland
Ezekiel 39:9 ‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel
Ezekiel 39:12  ‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.

What is the context of Ezekiel 39:21-24? The exile that they were currently in. God handed them over to babylon and hid is face from them.
Ezekiel 39:21-24 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God. And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

With Ezekiel 39:25-29 being when God would regather them, restore jacobs fortune, and pour out his spirit.

Psalm 85:1, which was written after the return from exile states the following:
You showed favor to Your land, O LORD
You restored Jacob's fortune.a

God also poured out his spirit on them (acts 2). Is there more than one "last days" where God pours out his spirit?

My supposition is that Gog attacks an Israel that is inhabited by Israelites. In order for that to happen, they would have to return from the babylonian exile they were currently in.

 

[DavidPT]

Ezekiel 39:21-24 looks back on the earlier, prior exile & captivity of "Israel"

Apparently, God's wondrous defeat of "Gog" (Ezekiel 39:1-20) will somehow finally at long last convince "Israel" and the "nations" that, given God's miraculous Power, the fact that "Israel" was ever defeated must imply that God had stopped supporting them.

Then, the main story of Gog's downfall picks back up, continuing from 39:25-29, through to the end of the chapter.

Think it's fairly clear that vv. 21-24 are just an interjection, relating how the amazing defeat of God will convince everybody, "Israel" and "nations / gentiles", of God's supra-natural, supra-human power.

But otherwise the story is clear & flows smoothly, Gog invades, God defeats Gog, God's power amazes all, God restores "Israel".

----

From a Christian perspective, "Gog & Magog" = Rev 20:7-9...

"Israel" = true spiritual Israel = Church & Christendom
"nations" = everybody outside "Israel" = everyone outside the Church & Christendom

Offer that, if the Church = true spiritual "temple"...

and if the "temple" resides in "Jerusalem" surrounding the "temple"...

that true spiritual "Jerusalem" = Christian society surrounding the Church ???

If so, then "Gog & Magog" invading and attacking "Jerusalem" the "beloved city" = organized onslaught vs. Christian society surrounding the Church = spiritual temple inside of spiritual Jerusalem ???

Your thoughts run deep. Still too early in the day here to fully grasp what you are trying to convey over all. I'm unable to reply to your post atm since I just woke up not too long ago. It takes me awhile sometimes to gain optimal focus. Sometimes I don't even manage to do that in a given day. I will probably have to read your post again later, when I'm a little more focused. Assuming I get a little more focused today. I can somewhat focus on the simpler things, yet your posts apparently are focusing on the deeper things.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Did you gloss over the initial part of the sentence "possible option".



Is Gog brought against an empty Israel?
Ezekiel 39:1-20 talks about Israel already being in the promiseland
Ezekiel 39:9 ‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel
Ezekiel 39:12  ‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.

What is the context of Ezekiel 39:21-24? The exile that they were currently in. God handed them over to babylon and hid is face from them.
Ezekiel 39:21-24 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God. And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

With Ezekiel 39:25-29 being when God would regather them, restore jacobs fortune, and pour out his spirit.

Psalm 85:1, which was written after the return from exile states the following:
You showed favor to Your land, O LORD
You restored Jacob's fortune.a

God also poured out his spirit on them (acts 2).

My supposition is that Gog attacks an Israel that is inhabited by Israelites. In order for that to happen, they would have to return from the babylonian exile.

agree with your language & choice of words

offer you could interpret the same from a Christian perspective:

• "Jacob / Israel" = true spiritual Jacob / Israel = Church
• "land of Israel" = lands & societies of Christendom
• "Gog & Magog" leading "nations" = leaders of those outside of the Church & Christendom

not sure it makes sense for Christians to read Scriptures about post-Millennial End-of-Earth times of opposition to "Israel" in the same way as (say) non-Christian Judaism ? Christian Scriptures only acknowledge the Church as truly, spiritually-where-it-matters-to-God, "Israel".

 

[Erik Nelson]

Your thoughts run deep. Still too early in the day here to fully grasp what you are trying to convey over all. I'm unable to reply to your post atm since I just woke up not too long ago. It takes me awhile sometimes to gain optimal focus. Sometimes I don't even manage to do that in a given day. I will probably have to read your post again later, when I'm a little more focused. Assuming I get a little more focused today. I can somewhat focus on the simpler things, yet your posts apparently are focusing on the deeper things.

i'm sure there's a better technical term, like "reprise" or rehash or something...

simply saying that Ezek 39:21-24 is an "aside", it exits the flow of the narrative to remind readers about past events...

it's not saying that, right in the middle of God's defeat of Gog, that "Israel" again backslides into apostasy and falls to invaders...

only to suddenly be re-restored a second time all over again in verse 25

think Ezek 38-39 reads very "smoothly" and "continuously":

1. Gog invades Israel
2. God defeats Gog
3. aside: everybody then realizes Israel was only ever defeated in the first place b/c God allowed it
4. God restores Israel

 

[DavidPT]

Much of this is fulfilled on earth now, and in heaven where Jesus reigns on David's throne. And to be fulfilled in the New Heavens and Earth which is the restoration of Israel in the resurrection on the last day. But only the born again can see the kingdom. It is spiritual and not physical.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more----- For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. So this is not a contradiction if both of these things are true at the same time?

 

[Dave L]

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more----- For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. So this is not a contradiction if both of these things are true at the same time?

You need to assign prophecy to it's rightful place. Now on earth, now in Heaven, or then in the New Heavens and Earth. There is no millennium since the 1000 years in Revelation 20 pertain to Satan's binding and he attacks the Kingdom when loosed.

 

[DamianWarS]

Did God literally come down from heaven to defeat David's enemies?
2 samuel 22:10-11 He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he was seen on the wings of the wind.

Or how about when the assyrians destroyed samaria?
Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the LORD is coming out of his place,
and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains will melt under him,
and the valleys will split open,like wax before the fire,

There's a rumour going around that Jesus will come back the same way those who saw him go to heaven.

God in the OT is spirit and anthropomorphic references of him coming down, riding a chariot or doing things with his hands and feet were never meant to be literal. But Jesus is flesh so when you refer to him in the flesh, it doesn't demand the figurative and may indeed speak to the literal flesh.

 

[DavidPT]

i'm sure there's a better technical term, like "reprise" or rehash or something...

simply saying that Ezek 39:21-24 is an "aside", it exits the flow of the narrative to remind readers about past events...

it's not saying that, right in the middle of God's defeat of Gog, that "Israel" again backslides into apostasy and falls to invaders...

only to suddenly be re-restored a second time all over again in verse 25

think Ezek 38-39 reads very "smoothly" and "continuously":

1. Gog invades Israel
2. God defeats Gog
3. aside: everybody then realizes Israel was only ever defeated in the first place b/c God allowed it
4. God restores Israel

Maybe we are on the same page after all then? When God no longer hides His face from them, do you agree or disagree that it's not until He has first brought judgment on Gog and his multitude? It seems from your post here that you agree. But wanting to make sure though.

 

[Dave L]

Maybe we are on the same page after all then? When God no longer hides His face from them, do you agree or disagree that it's not until He has first brought judgment on Gog and his multitude? It seems from your post here that you agree. But wanting to make sure though.

I believe Gog and Magog are assailing the church now. We are near the end of Revelation 20. Next comes the last day with all it entails and the destruction of the universe. And the emergence of the New Heavens and Earth.

 

[DavidPT]

agree with your language & choice of words

offer you could interpret the same from a Christian perspective:

• "Jacob / Israel" = true spiritual Jacob / Israel = Church
• "land of Israel" = lands & societies of Christendom
• "Gog & Magog" leading "nations" = leaders of those outside of the Church & Christendom

not sure it makes sense for Christians to read Scriptures about post-Millennial End-of-Earth times of opposition to "Israel" in the same way as (say) non-Christian Judaism ? Christian Scriptures only acknowledge the Church as truly, spiritually-where-it-matters-to-God, "Israel".

But why would He have been hiding His face from the church then? One part of me feels you are perhaps raising some valid points here, while another part of me has to wonder how the church fits in here, since the Israel meant here, God has been hiding His face from them.

 

[Dave L]

But why would He have been hiding His face from the church then? One part of me feels you are perhaps raising some valid points here, while another part of me has to wonder how the church fits in here, since the Israel meant here, God has been hiding His face from them.

The church is Israel. The broken off unbelievers are not. But God will reattach any through faith in Christ.

 

[DavidPT]

You need to assign prophecy to it's rightful place. Now on earth, now in Heaven, or then in the New Heavens and Earth. There is no millennium since the 1000 years in Revelation 20 pertain to Satan's binding and he attacks the Kingdom when loosed.

Explain how those two verses I submitted are not contradicting each other if both are alleged to be true at the same time. That would be a good start in order for me to try and see where you are coming from.