When do the last days end?

[keras]

No, not waiting for another temple to be rebuilt. I might be Premil, and I might be one that sees the 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, but I'm not one who thinks any of these things will involve literal temples in Jerusalem though.

There has to be a new Temple in Jerusalem for the Anti-Christ to desecrate. Daniel 11:31, 2 Thess 2:4, Revelation 11:1,+, and for Jesus to Return to and rule from.

So I suggest that you reconsider your beliefs. It will be the faithful Christians who will come from far away to build the Temple. Zechariah 6:15

 

[parousia70]

Hello, yes the people will have all those things according to Isaiah 65:17-23

OK....

But they don't grow old and die these people Have everlasting life which means their sins have been cleansed, they have new bodies with a new Spirit. The reason why death is occurs because of SIN (death came through sin.. Romans 5:12)

Then who are these people?:

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.

If no one sins there and no one dies there... who are these sinners and dead children Isaiah testifies will be there? ??

 

[parousia70]

The book of Revelation mainly has to do with prophecy. Prophecy predicts future events, not past events. My point being, since no one can prove one way or the other when the prophecies in Revelation were initially given to John,......

Well, that rendered the rest of your post moot, didn't it?

 

[parousia70]

Obviously he did not mean the second coming as it did not happen. That was not nigh by any stretch of the imagination. The day of vengence was.
========================
IT certainly was. For the churches that book was written to, it was very important. Prophesies against particulars were also carried out. Ephesis is just a ruin today. He did what he had threatened to do.

Indeed!

He "threatened" His thiefs coming would befall those at Sardis. (Revelation 3:3)

Which coming is His "coming as a thief"
2nd?
1 1/2?
1.25?

Which coming is this one?
Matthew 21:40-41
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

2nd?
1 1/2?
1.25?

 

[DavidPT]

Well, that rendered the rest of your post moot, didn't it?

Not necessarily. Even though we might not know for certain, God would know for certain. For example, God knows these visions were given to John after 70 AD, that being the reality of it. Assuming that were the case, all of the wishing in the world that John saw these visions before 70 AD instead, can't change this fact. The same would be true if God knows these visions were given to John after 70 AD, that being the reality of it. Assuming that were the case instead, all of the wishing in the world that John saw these visions before 70 AD instead can't change this fact. So even if God knows these visions were given to John before 70 AD, and that we knew He knows that, this doesn't undeniably prove any of these visions have the events of 70 AD in focus. It would make it a possibility, yet it wouldn't undeniably prove it. OTOH, if God knows these visions were given to John after 70 AD, and that we knew He knows that, this does undeniably prove that none of these visions have the events of 70 AD in focus.

 

[DavidPT]

There has to be a new Temple in Jerusalem for the Anti-Christ to desecrate. Daniel 11:31, 2 Thess 2:4, Revelation 11:1,+, and for Jesus to Return to and rule from.

So I suggest that you reconsider your beliefs. It will be the faithful Christians who will come from far away to build the Temple. Zechariah 6:15

I used to believe a literal temple will be involved. I have since tossed that idea into the trash can some time ago. I no longer see it being reasonable.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, not waiting for another temple to be rebuilt. I might be Premil, and I might be one that sees the 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, but I'm not one who thinks any of these things will involve literal temples in Jerusalem though.

I think the events described in Daniel and Revelation are pretty much all fulfilled and they really happened although the books are written to a Jewish audience with the understanding of the Jewish idiom. That is, the sun and moon are not the heavenly bodies but the authorities over the society.

As to the book of Revelation, for example, ch 11. I see no reason to take Jerusalem in the literal sense in that chapter.

Since Jesus warned Jersualem in the literal sense, since he told the believers to flee Literal Jerusalem in the literal sense, I see no reason to make it into something else. And what else that is a serious warning?

If one takes that in the literal sense, then one needs to take the 2Ws in the literal sense, and also take fire proceedeth out of their mouth, in the literal sense as well.

Not any more than Jesus will have a literal sword strangely coming out of his mouth. But he does have a literal mouth. And the word of the Lord is sharper than a two edged sword. SO, his word is the sword that literally comes out of his literal mouth. See how that works?

The latter alone proves, that very little, if anything at all, in Revelation 11 should be taken in the literal sense. Especially if this is supposed to be referring to events in the first century, as some of you seem to be insisting. Since the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century was a literal event, how does one reasonably fit 2 fire breathing witnesses in with that of a literal event, such as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD? It doesn't add up. It doesn't fit reality.

I think it fits perfectly. I do not see where you think the metaphor "firing out of the mouth" has to be life a fire breathing dragon or nothing at all worth speaking of. The two witnesses were for those people and no record was kept (for obvious reasons) of what the people inside experienced except by the Romans who captured the city and Josephus who wrote down what he knew of those events. We cannot assume that because we do not know of something, it never happened. The prophesy was for that generation, not ours. Those who needed to know about those two had the word they needed. We do not need it.

You need to realize the book is full of metaphors. Does not mean it was not real. Jesus used metaphors a lot. Does not mean the things he talked about were not real.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I used to believe a literal temple will be involved. I have since tossed that idea into the trash can some time ago. I no longer see it being reasonable.

Too bad. Jesus said it would be literally destroyed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Indeed!

He "threatened" His thiefs coming would befall those at Sardis. (Revelation 3:3)

Which coming is His "coming as a thief"
2nd?
1 1/2?
1.25?

Which coming is this one?

Do you know that Jesus threatened to come to some of those churches? "If you don't do xyz, I will come and do abc." Didn't he know he is only allowed to come once and it is not supposed to be a threat. But that is what he said. How do you deal with it? Him saying he was coming to some churches if they did not shape up.

Matthew 21:40-41
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

2nd?
1 1/2?
1.25?

There he is again talking about his coming. Who were the husbandmen who killed the son? Are they around today? Or was the Son killed 2019 years ago?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY

Hebrews 8:13
in the to be saying `New', He hath made old the former.
The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh<1451> of disappearance<854>

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the parousia<3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>
========================
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the time/season is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the time/season is nigh<1451nigh>

At that point in time it was so. The jewish age was becoming obsolete.
That was so when Peter wrote it. That is now history.
Obviously he did not mean the second coming as it did not happen. That was not nigh by any stretch of the imagination. The day of vengence was.
========================
IT certainly was. For the churches that book was written to, it was very important. Prophesies against particulars were also carried out. Ephesis is just a ruin today. He did what he had threatened to do.
Unlike the same thing told to Daniel who was to seal up the book. Same warning but the day was coming in their lifetimes. It was nigh. It is now over.

The days of vengeance is/was the parousia/2nd advent....

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4931-5055> of the Age?

Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?
and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be fully concluded<4931>.

Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?
And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming?

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

Revelation 19:2
“For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
and He has avenged<1556> on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

 

[DavidPT]

Too bad. Jesus said it would be literally destroyed.

Maybe we need to get on the same page here? I'm referring to a future rebuilt temple, that's what I no longer see as being reasonable. So not referring to the temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. That was a literal temple that was literally destroyed at the time.

 

[parousia70]

Not necessarily. Even though we might not know for certain, God would know for certain. For example, God knows these visions were given to John after 70 AD, that being the reality of it. Assuming that were the case, all of the wishing in the world that John saw these visions before 70 AD instead, can't change this fact. The same would be true if God knows these visions were given to John after 70 AD, that being the reality of it. Assuming that were the case instead, all of the wishing in the world that John saw these visions before 70 AD instead can't change this fact. So even if God knows these visions were given to John before 70 AD, and that we knew He knows that, this doesn't undeniably prove any of these visions have the events of 70 AD in focus. It would make it a possibility, yet it wouldn't undeniably prove it. OTOH, if God knows these visions were given to John after 70 AD, and that we knew He knows that, this does undeniably prove that none of these visions have the events of 70 AD in focus.

all I read there is "if, if, if, if,"

The REALITY is it can not be proven either way, so it's moot to submit the unprovable timing of the vision as any sort of evidence for attempting to prove the timing of it's fulfillment.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Huh?
The cosmic and earthly events prophesied for the end times, bear no relation to what happened in 70-135 AD.
You either don't know history or misread the Bible.

You should try to stick to the points where we disagree and not attack me personally instead. Shows the weakness of your position in your eyes.

Have you read about the details of the fall of Jerusalem? They fit perfectly.

It is perfectly evident that we who are alive now, will see it all. We are the generation that saw the 'fig tree' bud and flourish and we will also see the rest of Isaiah 61 happen, from verse 2b to 11
Note; in Isaiah 61:6, the parallel to Revelation 5:10

I have heard this since 1970. Many of those who said this and believed it have since died and did not see any of what they believed. He is not coming any time soon. His enemies have not been made a footstool for his feet.

I would encourage you to read about the history Josephus wrote regarding the Roman Jewish wars and the fall of Jerusalem. It is the worst human disaster in history in its suffering. But it fits Revelation to a tee and the christians missed it all by fleeing as Jesus told them to do to avoid the wrath of God.

But I will admit that if you want to believe Jesus is coming any minute, you had been not educate yourself on that historical point.

 

[parousia70]

Do you know that Jesus threatened to come to some of those churches? "If you don't do xyz, I will come and do abc." Didn't he know he is only allowed to come once and it is not supposed to be a threat. But that is what he said. How do you deal with it? Him saying he was coming to some churches if they did not shape up.

I take Him at His word and affirm that His Coming as a thief MUST have happened to them, then. (You do see my screen name, right?)

There he is again talking about his coming. Who were the husbandmen who killed the son? Are they around today? Or was the Son killed 2019 years ago?

Correct. The owner of the Vineyard did indeed come to the first-century husbandmen and was the stone that ground them to powder. (again... my screen name should be a dead givaway)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Maybe we need to get on the same page here? I'm referring to a future rebuilt temple, that's what I no longer see as being reasonable. So not referring to the temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. That was a literal temple that was literally destroyed at the time.

Well, there is no temple in Jerusalem and God made sure none will ever by built by giving the land to the Moslems. That will never happen as the land is gone and a war would have to be fought to get it back. So I do not see how a temple will be there at all ever.

We are the temple of the holy Spirit in any case. God left the holy of holies and the temple long ago. He dwells in the hearts of his children now.

 

[DavidPT]

all I read there is "if, if, if, if,"

The REALITY is it can not be proven either way, so it's moot to submit the unprovable timing of the vision as any sort of evidence for attempting to prove the timing of it's fulfillment.

I didn't say I proved anything, but if in reality it turns out that John was given these visions after 70 AD, and that God knows that, one can then do all the wishing in the world that John was given these visions prior to 70 AD, so that their theories can maybe work, and it still won't make their theories work.

No one can deny that there are only 2 choices to choose from. 1---John was given these visions prior to 70 AD. 2---John was given these visions after 70 AD. If 1, this makes a 70 AD interpretation of Revelation possible, yet does not undeniably prove it. If 2 though, this makes a 70 AD interpretation of Revelation impossible. It therefore is no wonder Preterists can't have John seeing these visions post 70 AD at any cost, since this would completely destroy their arguments.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, there is no temple in Jerusalem and God made sure none will ever by built by giving the land to the Moslems. That will never happen as the land is gone and a war would have to be fought to get it back. So I do not see how a temple will be there at all ever.

We are the temple of the holy Spirit in any case. God left the holy of holies and the temple long ago. He dwells in the hearts of his children now.

I agree.

What is your view of the "temple/sanctuary" being measured in Revelation 11:1? Symbolic or literal?
1st century or future? or "other".

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,
that to goodly stones and votive-offerings it has been adorned

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee, and thy Enemies shall be casting up a rampart<5482> to Thee,
and shall be encompassing<4033> Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary/Temple<3485> of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>, without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961> forty two months. [Luke 21:24]

 

[ewq1938]

The rest those who does not belong to Him will be destroyed just as the AntiChrist is 2Thess2:8, 2Pet 3:10,11 tells that everything and the earth laid bare when it destroy by fire.

Eventuallybut not all the unsaved are killed at the second coming. Scripture speaks of Christ and his saints ruling over people after the second coming.

Rev2-26 does not refer to after His coming but BEFORE,

It literally mentions his coming so it is not before the coming abut after it.

 

[parousia70]

I didn't say I proved anything, but if in reality it turns out that John was given these visions after 70 AD, and that God knows that, one can then do all the wishing in the world that John was given these visions prior to 70 AD, so that their theories can maybe work, and it still won't make their theories work.

Ok.... So?

No one can deny that there are only 2 choices to choose from. 1---John was given these visions prior to 70 AD. 2---John was given these visions after 70 AD. If 1, this makes a 70 AD interpretation of Revelation possible, yet does not undeniably prove it. If 2 though, this makes a 70 AD interpretation of Revelation impossible. It therefore is no wonder Preterists can't have John seeing these visions post 70 AD at any cost, since this would completely destroy their arguments.

But again, since it is unprovable, why do you keep pushing a post 70 argument you can't prove?

Since it can't be proven, that means a pre 70 date is at least possible, and the implications of which can't be summarily dismissed they way you hope they could, and must be dealt with actually on their merits... which is a huge thorn in the side of Futurists, who instead seem to want to hang their entire argument on "but, but, but what if...", Right?

 

[ewq1938]

One more point in Matthew 24:37-40 Jesus spoke of His coming as like the days of Noah. Only Noah and his family survive but the rest were ALL taken away..So you have two groups (1) saved (both dead in Christ and the one remains (2) taKen away to destroy. There is No saved and unsaved living side by side at that time Only the RIGHTEOUS will be with their King that will be for the Millenium

You can't have no unsaved living in the Millennium because as soon as it ends, Satan is released and then goes out to deceive the unsaved nations and they surround Jerusalem and are destroyed. In your scenario there are no nations for Satan to deceive yet they are there in the scriptures.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.